HisManySongs
Passed on, February 28, 2022
My point is that it takes more than one or two genes changing to create a new species.
Even billions of years are not sufficient.
Why Is Believing In Evolution A Sin?
- Thread starter Polly
- Start date
Even billions of years are not sufficient.
And what are the number of genetic differences, say, between a pig and a man?
HisManySongs
Passed on, February 28, 2022
Google is your friend.
There does not seem to be any rhyme or reason to the number of chromosomes. Certainly not pointing to an incrase in the amount of information available.
Glomung
Account Closed
In higher animals (like man) most of the chromosome is old and unused.
You are right to say that there's no apparent rhyme or reason to chromosome numbers,
in Paphiopedilum orchids the chromosome numbers range from 14 to over 90.
"My point is that it takes more than one or two genes changing to create a new species."
That is not accurate. An analysis of a dozen or so Zamia species in central America determined that half of them were derivative of one species and seperated due to chromosome loss or splitting.
A change in chromosome number during meiosis can leave a fertile seed incompatible with it's parents but compatible with it's siblings that share the same chromosome aberration, which leads to genetic isolation and thus shortly a new species.
Species development is much easier to study in plants, they don't tend to die off anywhere as easily as animals.
They also tend to have the "intermediate type" that folks make such a big deal about still alive.
You are right to say that there's no apparent rhyme or reason to chromosome numbers,
in Paphiopedilum orchids the chromosome numbers range from 14 to over 90.
"My point is that it takes more than one or two genes changing to create a new species."
That is not accurate. An analysis of a dozen or so Zamia species in central America determined that half of them were derivative of one species and seperated due to chromosome loss or splitting.
A change in chromosome number during meiosis can leave a fertile seed incompatible with it's parents but compatible with it's siblings that share the same chromosome aberration, which leads to genetic isolation and thus shortly a new species.
Species development is much easier to study in plants, they don't tend to die off anywhere as easily as animals.
They also tend to have the "intermediate type" that folks make such a big deal about still alive.
Well, you certainly appear to know more about genetics than I. I need to sleep and then go to work and then learn more about this subject.
If one takes the human birth, chronological listing in Genesis and go backward you will get to 6000 years.
That does not however speak to ............"In the beginning".
That means that there is no argument that constrains Creation to 6ooo years ago. "In the beginning" can be any number you want to make it, 6000, 10,000, 1 million, 5 billion. The point is that God does not wear a wrist watch.
I'm not entirely sure whether you are making a case for evolution or not here. Either way, your knowledge of genetics is far superior to mine so I'm not sure I'm qualified enough to discuss at this level
Hmm, this then pretty much renders our discussion worthless it would seem.
Didn't your god invent time along with everything else? If so, I would of thought he might actually have kept a note of when he did this miraculous feat.
Glomung
Account Closed
I avoid the "evolution argument" as I find that most folks opinions are so entrenched that they are completely closed to any discussion.
On the point of DNA, in humans, 90% of ours does absolutely nothing, just leftovers from the past that code for things like gills, fur, or a tail (which most of the time stays happily turned off).
There is one researcher who has been tinkering with remnant dinosaur genes in chickens, but sadly, ethics keeps him from making a dinochicken. Sad, because I'd want one.
On the point of DNA, in humans, 90% of ours does absolutely nothing, just leftovers from the past that code for things like gills, fur, or a tail (which most of the time stays happily turned off).
There is one researcher who has been tinkering with remnant dinosaur genes in chickens, but sadly, ethics keeps him from making a dinochicken. Sad, because I'd want one.
Ya think!
Glomung has just said................"I find that most folks opinions are so entrenched that they are completely closed to any discussion".
Glomung knows this stuff and I will leave those things to him, but That is the truth in a nutshell. We could discuss this for days and the result would be the same for you and for me.
The only thing I could add would be that Time is actually a created entity. The first verse of the Bible reads:.......
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).
When we study of this verse it reveals that God created time, space, and matter on the first day of Creation Week. Not one of these can have a meaningful existence without the others. God created the space-mass-time universe. Space and matter must exist in time, and time requires space and matter. Time is only meaningful if physical entities exist and events transpire during time.
“In the beginning . . .” is when time began! There was no time before time was created!
I give up. I'm not the only one entrenched in opinion. I don't mind when you have a point to argue as we started (young earth / 6000 years old) but when you just shift the goalposts by "it could mean anything up to a billion years" because of another different interpretation of your book it becomes futile.
Tubby tubby this is why WE BELIEVE you are not pickin up what we are puttin down:
But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.
1 Corinthians 2:10-14
Why do you find it hard to believe that before God created space-time that there wasn't any? Is it the concept of "no time" that is difficult to grasp? Just curious. Also, he wasn't saying it could be a billion years or whatever you think before creation depending on a translation. We are not given that information in Gods word. We just like to speculate--- and if there is no time then any number of years is irrelevant; it was just God. Being God. infinitely. Lol
That is why he is the Alpha and Omega!
But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.
1 Corinthians 2:10-14
Why do you find it hard to believe that before God created space-time that there wasn't any? Is it the concept of "no time" that is difficult to grasp? Just curious. Also, he wasn't saying it could be a billion years or whatever you think before creation depending on a translation. We are not given that information in Gods word. We just like to speculate--- and if there is no time then any number of years is irrelevant; it was just God. Being God. infinitely. Lol
That is why he is the Alpha and Omega!
Hey Tubby Tubby, welcome to the site, here are a few things you need to resolve for yourself, for your sake.
If there was a big bang, where did the elements come from to cause the explosion?
If the explosion came from hydrogen gases (or any gases), then how were the laws of physics (gravity, inertia, 2nd law of thermal dynamics etc.) created from/by this explosion (and if you say they already existed then who created them)?
Scientists believe, and I read you believe the scientists, the sun loses, or burns up the exact number of tons of gases each day and it hasn't changed since they started measuring the rate of loss, if they turn the rate of loss around and add it to the sun, then the sun would be so large in just 10,000 years the earth would be as hot as the planet Mercury and unable to support life, now if the sun was 1,000,000 years old then the earth would be inside of it, ...that's scientific evidence.
Geme
If there was a big bang, where did the elements come from to cause the explosion?
If the explosion came from hydrogen gases (or any gases), then how were the laws of physics (gravity, inertia, 2nd law of thermal dynamics etc.) created from/by this explosion (and if you say they already existed then who created them)?
Scientists believe, and I read you believe the scientists, the sun loses, or burns up the exact number of tons of gases each day and it hasn't changed since they started measuring the rate of loss, if they turn the rate of loss around and add it to the sun, then the sun would be so large in just 10,000 years the earth would be as hot as the planet Mercury and unable to support life, now if the sun was 1,000,000 years old then the earth would be inside of it, ...that's scientific evidence.
Geme
Look up the debate between bill nye and ken ham... Happened last week
Of course I find it difficult to grasp a concept of 'no time'. It comes shortly behind how I find it difficult to grasp the scale of the Universe, let alone our galaxy. It ranks alongside trying to grasp space-time itself, it equals my difficulty in grasping how strong nuclear force works and is broken down. It equals many things in my 'difficult to grasp' list.
The thing is, I continue to read and try to learn a little more about these things. You, on the other hand, are happy to deny yourself the joy of digging deeper to find answers because all of your answers are 'God'. Do you really grasp the concept of space-time let alone whatever came before it? Do you ever read detailed scientific papers describing space-time? (Not the regurgitated internet arguments against it by the way)
If you're happy to not think, and I mean really think about these things and just accept one (very old) book then you will miss out on some wondrous concepts.
I'm not after challenging you, just trying to help you understand maybe a little about how a person who has no god thinks. I'm interested in how you think, hence why I'm here.
I'm guessing the replies will be along the lines of 'have you read the bible and really understood it" a few more scriptures that can be interpreted any way you wish to and maybe some other anti-science theory copied from your internet favourites.
I'm not trying to prove your god does not exist by saying I don't believe in him, I'm explaining my view of the world - another point of view or a freedom of choice if you like.
Big bang elements come from? I don't know if that makes you happy or are you actually interested in thinking about it? Big bang theory goes as far back as some fraction of a second after, nothing to explain before.
Your second question is quite well documented in countless studies. The way gas distributed and formed into everything we see now has very good explanations and I don't want to risk quoting something from memory so that you can google it and turn it around. Besides, it is a very large story even in a concise form.
I have read a little about star birth and death. The sun doesn't 'burn' by the way, it fuses Hydrogen into Helium (at least for the time being) completely different. One is extremely inefficient and the other extremely efficient - i'll let you guess which. Fusion from Hydrogen to Helium gives off energy which we feel on earth which presumably you are referring to when you talk about measured gases? A stars lifetime being billions of years (at least for one like ours) will of course mean we measure energy at the same rate if we have only been measuring it for 50 years or however long.
Eventually the sun will expand as its core becomes more dense and it fuses heavier elements as you say it could reach the current earth orbit. Not sure where you get this information about the earth being too hot for life in 10,000 years though? Maybe you would like to point me in the direction of your reference material.
As for your opening statement, if I could resolve them for myself I would be a very clever and famous chap indeed. Doubt that will happen but I appreciate your confidence in me.
I can only imagine what happiness this will bring me. I will try to give it a viewing some time.
Tubby....Just believe what Genesis says. And also the rest of the scripture it is called " Blind Faith" Thanks...
I would love to, it would make life so much easier but I can't. I admit I am slightly envious of your belief but I doubt if I will ever reach that state of nirvana.
I understand...you just need conviction from the Holy Ghost and having a little faith and you can get it. There is too much confusion in this world with thousands of various belief systems. A person can believe one thing then another belief makes that belief null and void. The Word of God is forever however....just think about it...God Bless.