Women in the church

[crownoflife]

man in the Bible is reference to (flesh); woman being made from man is also a flesh being
she is the least among them all; husband comes first, kids come first, soccer practice comes first; she is servant to all.
It is not for a servant to think more highly of himself than he ought to; he is not greater than his Lord.
Praise God, HE comes first in my life. He is my life; God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus is/was the elder in the synagogue at 12 yrs old; and they were amazed at His teachings.
He has also told us to not let (them) despise your youth;
An elder is not a physical age thing; it is a spiritual thing, it is eternal and everlasting.
Praise God, He is GOD and knows me.
All praise, glory and honor be unto God.

 

[Major]

1Ti 3:1.. This saying is trustworthy: "If someone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a good work."
1Ti 3:2.. The oversee then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, an able teacher, (NET)

The problem here is the word, "man", or "his" is not gender specific in its translation. The reason "husband" is even mentioned is because it would not be good to have a "bishop" with multiple wives. The first verse says.....

1 Ti 3:1. This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. (KJV)

The word, "if any man" means, "if anyone, or someone, or whosoever" desires the office of a deacon, it does not mean male. The NET Bible translation gets it right.

1Ti 3:1.. This saying is trustworthy: "If someone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a good work." (NET)

It could not possibly mean that the "Bishop" must be married in order to be a bishop as there have been many who were and never married. It was not permissible for a "women" to divorce their husband, but it was very very easy for a man to divorce his wife. This is why it does not mention that women must be the wife of one husband anywhere in scripture because they did not have that problem in those days. The women would be included to be one of the whosoever, or someone, or if anyone who desires this office.

A man (husband) is only the head of ONE women (wife) not all women!!

Have you considered the idea that If a wife were a pastor and her husband were in the congregation, then when she taught, she'd be teaching her husband. This can't work--unless the husband has to leave the church each time his wife teaches. Ridiculous? You bet!

Then in all of the 17 English translations of the Bible I have (Darby, ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB95, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, NLT, NRSV, WUESTNT, RSV, GNB, WorrelNT, YLT), none translate the verse as wife and husband, so why are you asserting that it is about a husband and wife?

Then it must be considered that the context of 1 Tim. 2:9-15 is dealing with all the broader context of all women in the church. That is, Paul wants all women to adorn themselves with proper clothing. Following the address to women, he then expounds on the issue of teaching and authority, and then later in 3:11 he addresses women in the plural again.

I say again, if you want to allow women pastors then go right ahead. But please do not try and sell it as being accepted by God on the basis of Scripture purity because that just is not the case.

 

[Major]

man in the Bible is reference to (flesh); woman being made from man is also a flesh being
she is the least among them all; husband comes first, kids come first, soccer practice comes first; she is servant to all.
It is not for a servant to think more highly of himself than he ought to; he is not greater than his Lord.
Praise God, HE comes first in my life. He is my life; God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus is/was the elder in the synagogue at 12 yrs old; and they were amazed at His teachings.
He has also told us to not let (them) despise your youth;
An elder is not a physical age thing; it is a spiritual thing, it is eternal and everlasting.
Praise God, He is GOD and knows me.
All praise, glory and honor be unto God.

You said........"man in the Bible is reference to (flesh); woman being made from man is also a flesh being".

That is of course only true by contextual situation. The Greek word for “flesh” in the New Testament is sarx, a term that is used in Scripture refer to the physical body.

 

[Major]

Women are elders despite your take on scripture.

1 Timothy 3:1-7: ............
"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil."

It takes a lot of work to make those verses come out to mean "woman, or her".

The passages that describe the qualifications and duties of elders/overseers do not open the door for women to serve as elders. In fact, the consistent use of male pronouns and terminology argue strongly for the office of elder/overseer being restricted to men only. As with other issues in this debate, the question of women serving as elders is not a matter of chauvinism. In no sense is this a matter of men being superior to women. Rather, God restricts the office of elder to men only because that is how He has structured the church to function. Godly men are to serve as leadership, with women serving in the crucially important supporting roles.

Now, as it is with any other Scripture, you can make it say anything you want it to say but that does not make it Biblically correct.

 

[CCW95A]

Have you considered the idea that If a wife were a pastor and her husband were in the congregation, then when she taught, she'd be teaching her husband. This can't work--unless the husband has to leave the church each time his wife teaches. Ridiculous? You bet!

A women teaching in a Church setting is not teaching her husband, but the body of Christ. Secondly, the women is a "wife", and she is not teaching in a marriage relationship setting to her husband, but in Christ to other believers. This was not unusual as Apollos (a man) was taken aside in which Priscilla (a woman) and her husband Aquila taught Apollos more accurately the way of the Lord. (Acts 18:24-26)

 

[Euphemia]

1 Timothy 3:1-7: ............
"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil."

It takes a lot of work to make those verses come out to mean "woman, or her".

The passages that describe the qualifications and duties of elders/overseers do not open the door for women to serve as elders. In fact, the consistent use of male pronouns and terminology argue strongly for the office of elder/overseer being restricted to men only. As with other issues in this debate, the question of women serving as elders is not a matter of chauvinism. In no sense is this a matter of men being superior to women. Rather, God restricts the office of elder to men only because that is how He has structured the church to function. Godly men are to serve as leadership, with women serving in the crucially important supporting roles.

Now, as it is with any other Scripture, you can make it say anything you want it to say but that does not make it Biblically correct.

It's rather easy to explain the male pronouns, etc as most women were just beginning to be accepted as more than dogs by this brand new paradigm that Jesus brought, freeing women from that place of subjection. Paul and the apostles carried on in His Church.

There were still a preponderance of men who were available for leadership, but you can be sure that women were included.

Whatever qualifications were used for men were also applicable to women, as they began to learn and take part in this new thing called The Way.

It's important to familiarize oneself with the culture of that time.

Women and men lead together. It is a sexist understanding that has pervaded many cultures since the writing of scripture. It has served to halve the workforce of the Church. The enemy loves it, fit sure.

 

[CCW95A]

Have you considered the idea that If a wife were a pastor and her husband were in the congregation, then when she taught, she'd be teaching her husband. This can't work--unless the husband has to leave the church each time his wife teaches. Ridiculous? You bet!

Then in all of the 17 English translations of the Bible I have (Darby, ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB95, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, NLT, NRSV, WUESTNT, RSV, GNB, WorrelNT, YLT), none translate the verse as wife and husband, so why are you asserting that it is about a husband and wife?

Then it must be considered that the context of 1 Tim. 2:9-15 is dealing with all the broader context of all women in the church. That is, Paul wants all women to adorn themselves with proper clothing. Following the address to women, he then expounds on the issue of teaching and authority, and then later in 3:11 he addresses women in the plural again.

I say again, if you want to allow women pastors then go right ahead. But please do not try and sell it as being accepted by God on the basis of Scripture purity because that just is not the case.

Brother is God the same yesterday, today, and for ever? If the Lord God used "women" in the past and present do you think he has all of a sudden changed his ways toward his saints? I don't think so. Anna was a "prophetess" which means she was a prophet of God, not just someone who occasionally prophesy's.
Not only did she "prophecy" in the temple of God, she also preached to every one who came near the temple every hour on the hour. Now that's what I call a dedicated preacher!!

Luke 2:36.. And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin,
Luke 2:37.. and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.
Luke 2:38.. And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.

 

[christianbacktobasics]

How would you explain these passages to a nonbeliever...

1 Cor 14:34-35 NIV women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Tim 2:11-15 NIV A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Hello ATP and I hope this message finds you well. I have to say in answer to your question that I doubt I'd really try to explain it to an unbeliever at all, as it's a difficult enough subject for a Christians to understand. I'm not sure if the answer has been given throughout this huge thread but I'd be more than happy to put across what I believe the answers would be to this particular subject if you want? Blessings to you....

 

[crownoflife]

You said........"man in the Bible is reference to (flesh); woman being made from man is also a flesh being".

That is of course only true by contextual situation. The Greek word for “flesh” in the New Testament is sarx, a term that is used in Scripture refer to the physical body.

Praise God for you brother,
Be Christ like....
I am quite certain their are (many) physical bodies sitting on the pews; what is born of the flesh is flesh
And there are (few) spiritual bodies sitting on the pew; what is born of Spirit is spirit.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Amen
All praise, glory and honor be unto God. Amen

 

[Big Moose]

(1 Corinthians 16:15-18) Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints), {16} that you also be in subjection to such men and to everyone who helps in the work and labors. {17} And I rejoice over the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus; because they have supplied what was lacking on your part. {18} For they have refreshed my spirit and yours. Therefore acknowledge such men.

(1 Thessalonians 5:12-13) But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, {13} and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another.

(Titus 2:15) These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

(Hebrews 13:17) Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

(1 Peter 5:5) You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.

 

[Major]

Brother is God the same yesterday, today, and for ever? If the Lord God used "women" in the past and present do you think he has all of a sudden changed his ways toward his saints? I don't think so. Anna was a "prophetess" which means she was a prophet of God, not just someone who occasionally prophesy's.
Not only did she "prophecy" in the temple of God, she also preached to every one who came near the temple every hour on the hour. Now that's what I call a dedicated preacher!!

Luke 2:36.. And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin,
Luke 2:37.. and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.
Luke 2:38.. And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.

Your comment is worth merit and of course it is very correct. The instances of women prophets were rare, yet some there were, both before, and after the coming of Christ; as Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aaron, Deborah, the wife of Lapidoth, and Huldah, the wife of Shallum; and this Anna, at the time of Christ's birth, and afterwards four daughters of Philip the Evangelist.

There are women in the Bible who served in ways that contradict this interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Priscilla, and Phoebe are the most commonly given examples. Ultimately, Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah are meaningless to the issue, as Paul is addressing leadership in the church. Leadership in old covenant Israel is not the subject at hand. In regards to Priscilla and Phoebe, the New Testament nowhere describes them serving in a way that contradicts 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Priscilla, with her husband Aquila, discipled Apollos in their home (Acts 18:26). Phoebe is simply identified as a servant/deaconess of the church (Romans 16:1).

Now is God the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? I really do not think that fits into the theological question here.
The answer is of course YES. God never changes but situations do and God works in those situations.
Do you think that God is going to save humanity again by the construction of an Ark?
Do you think that God is going to save believers by parting the Red Sea again?
Do you think that Jesus is going to die on a cross again ?

The fact of women being used by God is well known and there is no reason to debate that. However, to then refuse the directions of Paul who got the information from God concerning women as pastors in the church is not acceptable to me personally. Again, if you choose to believe that then go right ahead. I am not your enemy here in this my brother. All I am saying is that going forward from Paul's direction there clearly were to be no women as pastors of a New Test. church.

The bottom line is that it is logical to conclude, therefore, that the issue would not be raised today if discussion of the parameters for pastoral leadership were confined to the biblical record. What does the Bible say......instead of what you want it to say.

This is NOT about equality in way what so ever. Men and women are equal in every way IMO. It is about what God has said and whether YOU accept it or reject it and He said in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 .........
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

At its face, this passage is abundantly clear. Paul restricts women from teaching or having spiritual authority over men. I DID NOT WRITE THOSE WORDS. I accept them and the reasons are for God to know and not me.

 

[Major]

It's rather easy to explain the male pronouns, etc as most women were just beginning to be accepted as more than dogs by this brand new paradigm that Jesus brought, freeing women from that place of subjection. Paul and the apostles carried on in His Church.

There were still a preponderance of men who were available for leadership, but you can be sure that women were included.

Whatever qualifications were used for men were also applicable to women, as they began to learn and take part in this new thing called The Way.

It's important to familiarize oneself with the culture of that time.

Women and men lead together. It is a sexist understanding that has pervaded many cultures since the writing of scripture. It has served to halve the workforce of the Church. The enemy loves it, fit sure.

1 Timothy 3:1-2

"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach".

My dear sister, male leadership does not belittle women. Jesus was given His authority by God the Father. He was sent by God. He said that the Father was greater than He. Do you think that this belittled Jesus? Of course not. Women are of great value in the church and need to be used more and more according to the gifts given them.

 

[Major]

A women teaching in a Church setting is not teaching her husband, but the body of Christ. Secondly, the women is a "wife", and she is not teaching in a marriage relationship setting to her husband, but in Christ to other believers. This was not unusual as Apollos (a man) was taken aside in which Priscilla (a woman) and her husband Aquila taught Apollos more accurately the way of the Lord. (Acts 18:24-26)

You said.........
"A women teaching in a Church setting is not teaching her husband, but the body of Christ."

Do you realize what you said????? Do you not see how hard you are having to twist the Scriptures to fit your opinion my brother????

 

[Euphemia]

There is no twisting of scripture going on. There is just literalism going on, and not the understanding that comes from the illumination and revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Seek and you shall find.

 

[CCW95A]

You said.........
"A women teaching in a Church setting is not teaching her husband, but the body of Christ."

Do you realize what you said????? Do you not see how hard you are having to twist the Scriptures to fit your opinion my brother????

Is there not a difference between a women discussing the scriptures with her husband at home, as apposed to teaching in a Church assembly?
As it it says, if a women (wife) learns anything in a Church setting, and have questions, she is to wait until they get home, and then ask her husband question, not while the service is going on. Do you not understand that husbands and wife's do talk to each other at home, and both come to common understandings of the scriptures at home.

 

[CCW95A]

Your comment is worth merit and of course it is very correct. The instances of women prophets were rare, yet some there were, both before, and after the coming of Christ; as Miriam, the sister of Moses and Aaron, Deborah, the wife of Lapidoth, and Huldah, the wife of Shallum; and this Anna, at the time of Christ's birth, and afterwards four daughters of Philip the Evangelist.

There are women in the Bible who served in ways that contradict this interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Priscilla, and Phoebe are the most commonly given examples. Ultimately, Miriam, Deborah, and Huldah are meaningless to the issue, as Paul is addressing leadership in the church. Leadership in old covenant Israel is not the subject at hand. In regards to Priscilla and Phoebe, the New Testament nowhere describes them serving in a way that contradicts 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Priscilla, with her husband Aquila, discipled Apollos in their home (Acts 18:26). Phoebe is simply identified as a servant/deaconess of the church (Romans 16:1).

Now is God the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? I really do not think that fits into the theological question here.
The answer is of course YES. God never changes but situations do and God works in those situations.
Do you think that God is going to save humanity again by the construction of an Ark?
Do you think that God is going to save believers by parting the Red Sea again?
Do you think that Jesus is going to die on a cross again ?

The fact of women being used by God is well known and there is no reason to debate that. However, to then refuse the directions of Paul who got the information from God concerning women as pastors in the church is not acceptable to me personally. Again, if you choose to believe that then go right ahead. I am not your enemy here in this my brother. All I am saying is that going forward from Paul's direction there clearly were to be no women as pastors of a New Test. church.

The bottom line is that it is logical to conclude, therefore, that the issue would not be raised today if discussion of the parameters for pastoral leadership were confined to the biblical record. What does the Bible say......instead of what you want it to say.

This is NOT about equality in way what so ever. Men and women are equal in every way IMO. It is about what God has said and whether YOU accept it or reject it and He said in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 .........
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

At its face, this passage is abundantly clear. Paul restricts women from teaching or having spiritual authority over men. I DID NOT WRITE THOSE WORDS. I accept them and the reasons are for God to know and not me.

Brother, the problem is not the Word of God, but the interpretation one holds to it. I for one do not see anywhere in scripture that prohibits women from any ministry office. The New Testament would never be considered a more restriction on the Church, but to set if free from bondage so that all the children of God weather it be women or men can do their part. I do not believe for one minute the Lord God has all of a sudden changed his mind in how he has and still continues to use women in the Church.

 

[Major]

Is there not a difference between a women discussing the scriptures with her husband at home, as apposed to teaching in a Church assembly?
As it it says, if a women (wife) learns anything in a Church setting, and have questions, she is to wait until they get home, and then ask her husband question, not while the service is going on. Do you not understand that husbands and wife's do talk to each other at home, and both come to common understandings of the scriptures at home.

YES there is a difference my brother. We can do this back and forth as long as you want to but the bottom line is still the same.
It is all about authority.

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11–14 makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear.
Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses 13–14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family and in the church.

The fact that Eve was deceived is also given in 1 Timothy 2:14 as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men. If all women are more easily deceived, why would they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? The text simply says that women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church.

 

[Major]

There is no twisting of scripture going on. There is just literalism going on, and not the understanding that comes from the illumination and revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Seek and you shall find.

When it is presented to you.....believe it and accept it.

 

[Major]

Brother, the problem is not the Word of God, but the interpretation one holds to it. I for one do not see anywhere in scripture that prohibits women from any ministry office. The New Testament would never be considered a more restriction on the Church, but to set if free from bondage so that all the children of God weather it be women or men can do their part. I do not believe for one minute the Lord God has all of a sudden changed his mind in how he has and still continues to use women in the Church.

Agreed! The problem has never been the Word of God but mans inability to understand it as it is written.

1 Timothy 3:1–2...........

"The saying is trustworthy: If a man aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach".

How can you read those words and still say..........
"I for one do not see anywhere in scripture that prohibits women from any ministry office".

Are we reading some other way than one word at a time???

 

[CCW95A]

YES there is a difference my brother. We can do this back and forth as long as you want to but the bottom line is still the same.
It is all about authority.

The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11–14 makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear.
Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses 13–14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family and in the church.

The fact that Eve was deceived is also given in 1 Timothy 2:14 as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men. If all women are more easily deceived, why would they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? The text simply says that women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church.

I do not agree. Who was responsible for sin coming into the world? It was not the woman, but Adam!!! Eve was deceived, but what Adam did was much more worse, as he knew it was wrong, but did it anyway. Women (wife) are not more easily deceived than men (husband), that is simply not true on any level.