No, dear brother, I'm not suggesting anything like that! Gibbon's history just happens to have a lot of detail about the early Church, which makes it an interesting source.
Worship through music
- Thread starter AndrewB93
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My apologies!
I think that we all use the Bible as our criteria and basis for understanding. It is that some of us think differently than others.
No apology required - I needed to clarify my comment. [emoji1]
Yes... and I'm afraid that we do think differently from one another because we allow nature's claims to come into the assembly. The truth and the Spirit unite us, because there's one truth and one Spirit, not to mention one Lord, and so on. Nature tends to divide us, if it's not kept in its place.
The spiritual record of how the Holy Spirit works in and through the lives of Christians bears out more of the truth than any historical record. We only need the word of God for truth...not any books.
In any assembly where Jesus is pastor, that is not the case. Perhaps you have witnessed another kind of church.
Michal was disturbed by David's exuberance, and pure abandonment to exultation before the Lord, and she turned her nose up at him and what he was doing. This is what I am seeing you as well as a certain denomination doing in the face of pure, honest, freedom in worship. It's simply judgment, and the wrong kind of judgment.
There is NOTHING unfruitful in obeying the Spirit of God who exults with us in fully worshiping God with hearts, voices, dancing and instruments. God revels in it, and participates in it, and we are blessed by it!
To make a judgment that those who worship musically with instruments that it is "nature" and therefore is somehow carnal, is wrong. We are free to use musical instruments in worship to the Lord...and free not to, as well.
@Euphemia @Grant Melville
I would like to take a moment of your time and share something God gave to me understanding on.
Worship Him with our all or whole heart and entrie being.
We all agree God is spirit and we worship Him in Spirit.
We all agree that musical instruments are a pluss and a good thing when included with the heart.
Now then there is more to this whole being.............
We are to worship God in every area of our lives which includes talents and jobs and gifts and oh yea money..
Just had to throw that one in there........shhh there is an explanation coming....Lets start with Money- we worship God through and with our money through our Tithe and Giving and seeing to others needs. We honor Him by being obediant in our giving when He says give this amount here or there and this is a form of worship for we worship His every being and this makes us joyful givers and honoring Him in obediiance.
Our talents or jobs and gifts.........We honor or adore or worship Him through our obedience unto His word and ways when we keep Him and His ways first place. When we walk in love and forgivness with that co-worker in which every one wants to send them for a long walk on a short pier.
When we keep Him first place and strive for excellence no matter what. We use these gifts and talents to bless others and this might mean FREE no matter the cost. Dont grumble or complain and and do it joyfully in love and obedience unto Him and He will make it up to you. Grumble and walk in the flesh - well ...think of the children in the wilderness and you get the picture.
It is not that these things are " WORSHIP TOOLS" BUT rather obedient ways of worship unto Him in which we love and honor and adore.
If you walk with an attitude such as this - you can NOT go wrong for He will be there every step of the way. See sometimes OBEDIENCE IS TRUE WORSHIP. Think about it this way....you became way side to God speaking to you to give this collection 200 dollars but refused because that is your money and you need things and they can go earn it. Then get all religious and try to worship Him and THINK TO YOUR SELF that you are truly in worship.........are you really?
Worship is more then just praising Him from your heart. It is your entire being and way that you do things in your every day life.
God Bless You both my friends
Jim
@Euphemia @Grant Melville
I would like to take a moment of your time and share something God gave to me understanding on.
Worship Him with our all or whole heart and entrie being.
We all agree God is spirit and we worship Him in Spirit.
We all agree that musical instruments are a pluss and a good thing when included with the heart.
Now then there is more to this whole being.............
We are to worship God in every area of our lives which includes talents and jobs and gifts and oh yea money..
Lets start with Money- we worship God through and with our money through our Tithe and Giving and seeing to others needs. We honor Him by being obediant in our giving when He says give this amount here or there and this is a form of worship for we worship His every being and this makes us joyful givers and honoring Him in obediiance.
Our talents or jobs and gifts.........We honor or adore or worship Him through our obedience unto His word and ways when we keep Him and His ways first place. When we walk in love and forgivness with that co-worker in which every one wants to send them for a long walk on a short pier.
When we keep Him first place and strive for excellence no matter what. We use these gifts and talents to bless others and this might mean FREE no matter the cost. Dont grumble or complain and and do it joyfully in love and obedience unto Him and He will make it up to you. Grumble and walk in the flesh - well ...think of the children in the wilderness and you get the picture.
It is not that these things are " WORSHIP TOOLS" BUT rather obedient ways of worship unto Him in which we love and honor and adore.
If you walk with an attitude such as this - you can NOT go wrong for He will be there every step of the way. See sometimes OBEDIENCE IS TRUE WORSHIP. Think about it this way....you became way side to God speaking to you to give this collection 200 dollars but refused because that is your money and you need things and they can go earn it. Then get all religious and try to worship Him and THINK TO YOUR SELF that you are truly in worship.........are you really?
Worship is more then just praising Him from your heart. It is your entire being and way that you do things in your every day life.
God Bless You both my friends
Jim
As i read what you said, In my mind what you are saying is that it is the attitude of the heart that is the core of true worship. And that is displayed in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. We can be obedient all we want but if we are grumbling and such...the worship means nothing. Thank you for sharing what God ministered unto you
love you!Ah shucks mam - you gone and done made me blushAs i read what you said, In my mind what you are saying is that it is the attitude of the heart that is the core of true worship. And that is displayed in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. We can be obedient all we want but if we are grumbling and such...the worship means nothing. Thank you for sharing what God ministered unto you
As i read what you said, In my mind what you are saying is that it is the attitude of the heart that is the core of true worship. And that is displayed in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. We can be obedient all we want but if we are grumbling and such...the worship means nothing. Thank you for sharing what God ministered unto you
@Fish Catcher Jim ~ ya know as i eas thinking about this i remember the example of the two kings in the old testament. One had a heart that was right before God, he was not always obedient or perfect, but God gave him credit like he was perfect and totally obedient. But the other king was fully obedient, but his heart was not right and God did not credit him for any of that obedience. I think the kings were king David and Hezekiah? I guess i will have to look it up
Blessings
@Fish Catcher Jim ~ ya know as i eas thinking about this i remember the example of the two kings in the old testament. One had a heart that was right before God, he was not always obedient or perfect, but God gave him credit like he was perfect and totally obedient. But the other king was fully obedient, but his heart was not right and God did not credit him for any of that obedience. I think the kings were king David and Hezekiah? I guess i will have to look it up
Blessings
Yeppers I do so remember that story as well. AS always it comes down to the condition of the heart. The motive of the heart God does see - BUT people see what ever you want them to see for the most part.
Thanks for the reminder Cturtle~
God Bles
Fish Catcher Jim
That's very true. But, we can never forget that in Christendom we're surrounded by those "having a form of piety but denying the power of it..." (2 Timothy 3:5). Much which is attributed to the Spirit is in fact merely works and emotions and the arts and crafts of man. We need to discern what truly is of the Spirit, and the New Testament scripture would be our guide as to that. The record of history shows us, beyond any shadow of a doubt, what conditions were in the primitive Church. Jude writes, early on in the history of the Church, to "you who once knew all things" (Jude 1:5). This is "the faith once delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3). It was once delivered: there was a full revelation in the Person of God's Son. Nothing of the traditions of men could add to that faith, once delivered. One who had received the faith once delivered to the saints was one who "knew all things". So, we see, by the authority of scripture, that what the Church had at the very beginning was complete, the full revelation. Very quickly it began to be lost and obscured, and the writers of the Epistles write to the saints to bring about recovery and restoration to the truth, and to lead new converts into it. We also see that what's been added, often at a distance of many centuries, to the Christian faith, is not the original thought. Truth that's been 'lost' for centuries has been recovered, some of it in the past few hundred years, and we have to distinguish between that and the innovations and interpolations of man's mind. Again, the scriptures are our unfailing guide to that. Does it stand the test of the word?
On that note, Mr J.N. Darby said the following about the Epistles:
"In the epistles, we find the exposition of the result of that glorious work of grace, by which man is placed on entirely new ground with God, in reconciliation with Him; as well as the development of the counsels of God in Christ, according to which this new world is established and ordered. In giving this exposition of the ways of God in connection with the work which is their basis, the perfect efficacy of the work itself, and the order of our relations with God, are plainly set forth; so that the whole system, the whole plan of God, and the way in which it was put in execution, are presented. And in doing this, that which man is, that which God is, that which eternal life is, are clearly put before us.
The death and resurrection of Christ, as well as His exaltation to the right hand of God, form the center of all this instruction."
- 'Synopsis of the Books of the Books of the Bible' - Vol. 4 - Acts - Philippians - J.N.D.
In my experience, response in worship to God is in Christ and by the Spirit - entirely in Him and by the Spirit. Nothing is offered up which could've been found in the emotions - however well-intentioned - of a person who doesn't have the Spirit - the offering is spiritual, not natural in terms of human nature.
It's important to study that scripture (and every scripture) in dependence in the Holy Spirit and in subjection. Then we can understand what Michal and David actually represent.
Nature is right, in its place. Nature is God's ordering. But we, as believers, are privileged to have a part in what's spiritual and unaffected or enhanced by nature.
We're free to do as we like in the service of God. Does that sound like scriptural truth? Has God left us, without revelation, to do whatever's right in our own eyes? Thankfully and blessedly not.
Now, brother, I've been quite able to go on with what you've said so far, but I think here we're straying from the solid ground of scripture. Where is the scripture that says we can worship God with money or talents or jobs or gifts? Is giving to others, or even tithing, worship? No. Giving to others brings glory to God - if they know why we're giving, then they'll praise God for it. We would hope it would produce worship in the recipient. Tithing, or giving money to a collection, that's ministering to the Lord's interests here in a practical way. Again, it may produce worship in the hearts of the saints, but the act itself is not an act of worship. We have to be clear as to that. We can glorify God in actions and activities which are not worship. For example, if I have a need and you give me money at cost to yourself, then you're ministering to my practical need. That's a great thing, and God's will, and it may produce worship in both our hearts - but the act itself is ministry, not worship. Perhaps it could be said that ministry manward secures and sustains worshippers - I hope that's a right thought. Ministry Godward is worship, I have no doubt about that, because God is its Object.@Euphemia @Grant Melville
I would like to take a moment of your time and share something God gave to me understanding on.
Worship Him with our all or whole heart and entrie being.
We all agree God is spirit and we worship Him in Spirit.
We all agree that musical instruments are a pluss and a good thing when included with the heart.
Now then there is more to this whole being.............
We are to worship God in every area of our lives which includes talents and jobs and gifts and oh yea money..
Lets start with Money- we worship God through and with our money through our Tithe and Giving and seeing to others needs. We honor Him by being obediant in our giving when He says give this amount here or there and this is a form of worship for we worship His every being and this makes us joyful givers and honoring Him in obediiance.
Our talents or jobs and gifts.........We honor or adore or worship Him through our obedience unto His word and ways when we keep Him and His ways first place. When we walk in love and forgivness with that co-worker in which every one wants to send them for a long walk on a short pier.
When we keep Him first place and strive for excellence no matter what. We use these gifts and talents to bless others and this might mean FREE no matter the cost. Dont grumble or complain and and do it joyfully in love and obedience unto Him and He will make it up to you. Grumble and walk in the flesh - well ...think of the children in the wilderness and you get the picture.
It is not that these things are " WORSHIP TOOLS" BUT rather obedient ways of worship unto Him in which we love and honor and adore.
If you walk with an attitude such as this - you can NOT go wrong for He will be there every step of the way. See sometimes OBEDIENCE IS TRUE WORSHIP. Think about it this way....you became way side to God speaking to you to give this collection 200 dollars but refused because that is your money and you need things and they can go earn it. Then get all religious and try to worship Him and THINK TO YOUR SELF that you are truly in worship.........are you really?
Worship is more then just praising Him from your heart. It is your entire being and way that you do things in your every day life.
God Bless You both my friends
Jim
Again, in the way we deal with our brethren, or our co-workers, or anyone we come into contact with in life - that provides an opportunity to glorify God. We should be exercised to do all things to the glory of God, and if I'm minded to do something in which there's no opportunity for God's glory, then I should consider if my time is better spent doing something else. As I've said elsewhere, doing everything to the glory of God and in the name of the Lord Jesus, that restricts our activities, rather than giving us an unlimited scope for whatever action we choose - that's the broad way. It guides our feet into the narrow path, and it's delightful to our hearts to be in it, because we love God's glory and the Lord's Name. Our every step in that path present fresh opportunities to please God.
I appreciate the spirit of your remarks, dear brother. I do feel though that we have to be clear that not every action or thought of ours is worship. Not even every spiritual thought and action of ours is worship. If I think about the practical and spiritual needs of my brother or sister and I go and minister to them, then that is a wonderful thing, a privilege, and pleasing to God. But it isn't worship. It would be productive of worship. If I feel that the task is too much for me and I get on my knees before God to ask for help, then He would give it and that would produce worship in my heart. If the spiritual ministry I've been called upon to take up is to bring in something from the Lord to restore a brother or sister who perhaps has got away from the Lord in their soul, then I would be instrumental in restoring a worshipper. All these things tend to worship, but we have to see that they're the divine means to a divine end. In heaven, in eternity, there won't be any need for ministry manward - there won't be any need or any falling away. All will be worship to God, the service of God in praise and worship unfolding for eternity.
I know you weren't addressing me directly, Cturtle, but thank you for bringing in a scripture that's been in my mind too. God is love. If we don't have love, we aren't in line with God's nature. Judas performed signs and wonders, displayed power - but he didn't have love. He had no real appreciation of Jesus.As i read what you said, In my mind what you are saying is that it is the attitude of the heart that is the core of true worship. And that is displayed in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. We can be obedient all we want but if we are grumbling and such...the worship means nothing. Thank you for sharing what God ministered unto you
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When we worship God with all we are and with all we have, God finds it pleasing. That includes the expression of our emotions as well. They under the control of the Holy Spirit, are holy and not carnal. I think that those who deny themselves the expression of complete adoration and worship of God by denying their emotional response to God or their expression through musical instruments are denying something very fundamental, and are toying a spirit of religion., and legalism. Be very careful what you deny.
His holiness is borne out through our humanity, and so is His beauty in our full worship.
His holiness is borne out through our humanity, and so is His beauty in our full worship.
That's a compelling idea, but there really are no scriptures to support it. On the contrary, the scriptures describe us as believers as having died with the Christ and having been raised with Him, and having been born again. Otherwise how could there be any response to God?
"Jesus answered [Nicodemus], Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." - John 3:5-6
By the Spirit, we have spiritual feelings which are totally different from human emotions. When emotion and sentiment is allowed free reign when considering divine things, it's harmful to spiritual life in the believer. I don't want to be critical, but in Christendom so many professing Christians have a sentimental attachment to the cross as a symbol, to the point of adoration, and the One who was on that cross and is now ascended is forgotten. So much place is given to the symbol and image of what man and the world awarded Christ, and so little to the Lord Himself in His present position in glory. We see that in 2 Kings 18:4, Hezekiah "broke in pieces the serpent of brass that Moses had made; for to those days the children of Israel burned incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan." He called it what it was, "bronze" or "brass", nothing more. It was simply a symbol, and the Israelites had forgotten the true meaning of it.
What are you talking about?
The spirit of man does not have feelings. Our soul does. Under control of the indwelling Holy Spirit, our soul connects and communicates and learns from our spirit man where Holy Spirit dwells, so that our emotions are righteous and holy---not carnal or fleshy. We are not to deny our humanity before the Father!
We are to guard ourselves against hyper-emotionalism, but when it comes to true worship, we need to include our emotions. He desires that we worship0 Him with our whole selves: body, mind (soul) and spirit...and that includes emotions. Being stoic with God is not righteous.
I am of the opinion that you, among many others, including a denomination I have mentioned in the past to you, have taken on a false understanding of emotions and have labeled them as carnality, when they are not. It is very legalistic and a religious mindset that denies the full expression of joy and adoration with music in praise to our God.
I know you weren't addressing me directly, Cturtle, but thank you for bringing in a scripture that's been in my mind too. God is love. If we don't have love, we aren't in line with God's nature. Judas performed signs and wonders, displayed power - but he didn't have love. He had no real appreciation of Jesus.[/QUOTE]
@Grant Melville to say that it was me alone is incorrect...for it is the Father who dwells within me Whom i listen to for the answers, or the words that i speak. (John 14:10). And to add to what you are saying about Judas...when Jesus spoke about hm in the book of John...He said that he did not believe that Jesus was really the Messiah. So not only did he have no appreciation but he was not fully convinced of His diety, and it is the only way he could have allowed the devil to convince him to betray Jesus.
Blessings my friend!
@Grant Melville to say that it was me alone is incorrect...for it is the Father who dwells within me Whom i listen to for the answers, or the words that i speak. (John 14:10). And to add to what you are saying about Judas...when Jesus spoke about hm in the book of John...He said that he did not believe that Jesus was really the Messiah. So not only did he have no appreciation but he was not fully convinced of His diety, and it is the only way he could have allowed the devil to convince him to betray Jesus.
Blessings my friend!
Hi Grant,
I was reading some of this resopnse to Jim earlier and have a desire to see things in the Word of God as well...especially in the realm of worshiping God with our tithes, gifts or graces, and money given to others. So i thought i would respond and then he can respond later as well.
The definition of the word worship according to the nlt is -to regard with great extravagant respect, honor or devotion. And looking in the Webster 1858...worship v.i. says to perform acts of adoration. One of the definitions from strongs is to humbly beseech, do reverance.... and whatever ye do, do it heartily as to the Lord and not unto men (colossians 3:17, 23-24) couldn't this verse fall under those definitions?
As i was searching for references i found one that says...of Christ by: and one that comes up is the magi. The three kings that worshiped Jesus as an infant by presenting Him with gold, frankensence and myrrh.
As i read 2 Corinthians 9 it apears to me that Paul is encouraging them to give with a cheerful heart. And in vs. 12 we see that the administration of this service not only supplies the needs of the saints, but also is abounding through many thanksgivings to God. Meaning that when they gave their gifts...the people who received the gifts thanked and worshiped God for meeting their needs.
And as i read down further God led me to 1 Chronicles 16:29......Give to the Lord the glory due His name, bring an offering and come before Him. Oh, Worship the Lord in the beauty of Holiness.
Here is what it says in my Open Bible......16:29 The Meaning of Worship "Worship refers to the supreme honor or veneration given either in thought or deed to a person or thing. The Bible teaches that God alone is worthy of worship (ps 29:2), but it also sadly records accounts of those who worshiped other objects......It is indeed tragic that many worshiped gods they could carry instead of the God that could carry them. God Almighty alone is worthy of worship (Rev. 4:11)
True worship involves at least three important elements:
A. Worship requires reverance. This includes the honor and respect directed toward the Lord in thought and feeling. It is one thing to obey a superior unwillingly; it is quite another to commit one's thoughts and emotions in that obedience. Jesus said that those who worship God must do so in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). The term spirit speaks of the personal nature of worship: it is from my person to God's person and involves the intellect, emotions and will. The word truth speaks of the content of worship: God is pleased when we worship Him understanding His true Character.
B. Worship includes public expression. This was particularly prevalent in the Old testament because of the sacrificial system. For example, when a believer received a particular blessing for which he wanted to thank God, it was not sufficient to say it privately; he expressed it publicly with a thank offering (Lev 7:12)
C. Worship means service. These two concepts are often linked together in Scripture (Dt 8:19). Furthermore the words for worship in both testaments originally referred to the labor of slaves for the master. Worship especially includes the joyful service which Christians render to Christ their Master. The concept of worship must not be restricted to church attendance, but should embrace an entire life of obedience to God.
Blessings
and thanks for letting me respond.
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Grant Hello,
I see where you are coming from here, However worship is MORE then just 10 minutes in a bible meeting or 20 minutes during a church service or even 2 hours in your living room. Yes those are examples of places of worship unto God AND THEY ARE ONLY one type of worship.
Worship should not be placed in a box as to it is only this and nothing else. We worship God and we Adore Him and We Love Him and we obey Him and so forth. When we deepen our Love for God we find that reverence is found in many different ways. We find that when we truly fall in Love with Him we begin to show forth this Love in everything we do. Why because we worship His entire being with our entire being.
How do you do anything Grant with your entire being ? Further more what exactly is our entire being ? It is everything we are and do. Worship is not just praise coming out of ones mouth from their heart. Worship unto God should be a part of everything we do. Our Love and adoration to God should flow out of everything we do as worship unto Him.
It will be hard to grasp this IF you take everything as unto the letter of the law.
God Bless
Jim