The scriptures show us that failure has come in. The addresses to the seven assemblies in Revelation, 2 Timothy, Jude, and so on. We only need to look around us at the state of Christendom to see widespread failure and departure from the truth, which will lead to outright apostasy when the Church is taken from the scene.
Worship through music
- Thread starter AndrewB93
- Start date
Agreed! We do not have to look very far these days to see that departure from the truth.......do we???
Why do you focus only on singing? There is no difference in any of the many ways we can praise and worship the Father.
There is nothing in this thread that points to failure in the Body of Christ with regard to worship. Great churches that worship God fully with music and song are blessed and increased by God's great hand. There's no failure there.
in short the answer is yes.. We all know we worship Lord in spirit and truth. Our external actions are not worship itself.. They are expressions of worship.. Someone might sing the same hymn and truly worship Lord in spirit and another person singing may not be worshipping.. How often have you seen unbelievers wonderfully sing Christian songs? Sometimes you feel they do a better job than believers right. So singing or music itself is not worship. Singing better does not mean worshipping better
Worship really means "bow before the Lord". Anything we do with complete reverence to Lord, desire on Him alone, washed in His blood, humble submission to Him and with love - is true worship. This would apply to any expression.. Singing, dancing, playing music, corporate worship, even tithing.. So you can worship Lord through music alone
Sadly, that's the case, for sure. And it's not something that any believer can be sanguine about, even if he or she has separated themselves from iniquity. There is that tendency - I know it in myself - to come to a judgement of a thing (or indeed, the whole state of Christendom) and then let the sin-offering be burnt up completely. We have to eat of it, we must do. I can and must depart from iniquity, but I can't depart from responsibility for the failure - I have to admit it before God and be humble before Him. That's what Aaron did at the end of Leviticus 10. It's painful to look back over the history of the Church and see all the failure that's come in (and to do the same for my personal history), but there's great blessing in humbling ourselves before God about it. That way, we can go forward in a way that's pleasing to Him, and be part of the unbroken continuation of what's for the pleasure of God and the testimony of the Lord Jesus. We get to see that regardless of how man has failed in responsibility, nothing that God has set on ever falls to the ground, and no thought of His ever fails to come to fruition. We can be overcomers, even in the darkest of days.
I focus on singing, because singing is the only musical expression of worship connected with Christian worship in the word of God. Singing is the only form of music which presents an opportunity for edification. Wordless tunes aren't edifying.
I'm referring to moral and testimonial failure, a symptom of which is the increasing place of entertainment and appeals that the emotions (whether in so-called worship activities, or sermons which pretend to be the gospel) in churches.
Being hyper-literal about the scriptures is not conducive to living free in the Lord. God edifies us in all sorts of things we do as unto Him, including playing music for and to Him, dancing before Him and shouting with joy and triumph to Him.
Instruments played for the Lord's glory without words is immensely edifying...God is the one who does it.
Moral failure is a tragic thing whenever and wherever it occurs. It is not a problem in Spirit-led churches that actually physically come together in worship of the Lord with voice, dance, music with instruments, and even with expression in art. No pretense there.
Good thoughts Grant. I believe that the sin of pride keeps a lot of believers from being able to accept the responsibility that you are talking about.
It is when "I" humble myself to God and allow Him to cleanse me of pride and stubbornness that allows me to forward.
Grant, moral failure is a sin thing. It is a human failure we all live with until the Rapture or death.
There is without a doubt way too much entertainment that goes on in church worship services. Entertainment however can come in all kinds of ways. Sometimes the preacher does nothing more than tell jokes and stories about his grandparents. Everyone laughs and has a good time and go home happy. Is that worship???? Some say that it is.
Then there are times when someone can pick "The Wild Wood Flower" on a guitar and several people come and knell at the alter in prayer and worship. The Holy Spirit can and does move in all kinds of ways. Is that worship???? Some say that it is.
Grant, can you give us your feelings on .................
Psalm 150:3-5 .................
"Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
Luke 15:21-25 ...................
"And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate. “Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. "
I very much feel that myself, that it's something I personally have a lot to learn about. The leaven, what's inflating, pride, it's all very contrary to spiritual life, and it creeps in so easily. One can be technically right and know the terms of the truth, and even that can be a source of sinful pride. The opposite of that is being maintained in humility, for sure - that we we're not just technically right, but really right with God, with a right spirit. And we, as believers, have a lot to be humble about. Not that we should be dwelling morbidly on failure and breakdown, but, having acknowledged it and acknowledged our part in it, we can go forward, can't we? In power, too. God is so amazingly good.
Yes, moral failure is sin, that's true. A failure in maintaining the moral conditions which are pleasing to God.
I see what you mean. I think one has to be careful that one doesn't give the impression - when talking about suitability and order and so on in the presence of God - that things should be dour, dry and humourless. (I think sometimes that's what some people think I'm insisting on, which goes to show how poorly I communicate the wonderful things which I know in my heart.) In my experience, in the gathering, the brethren are very free. The Holy Spirit is free amongst the saints, and we're all enjoying heavenly things, and the burdens and sorrows we might be carrying in our day-to-day circumstances are forgotten. There's often laughter, and most of the time it's because a brother has said something unintentionally amusing, and a touch of spontaneous and gentle humour has come in. I don't think the assembly is the place for comedy or intentional joking, but when the brethren are free in their spirits, there is a joyful atmosphere, and conditions where we're free with one another, free to express things in simple language, using 'homely' terms without fear of unkind ridicule. I wouldn't say that these moments of light relief are worship, though. They're the result of the brethren being at ease. There's nothing wrong with it, but needless to say, it isn't the Holy Spirit that makes us laugh. We have to guard reverentially what is truly of the Spirit.
As for the second example, I would suggest that playing a musical instrument is really the equivalent of someone being intentionally funny. There's absolutely nothing wrong with guitar-playing or telling innocent jokes, but I wouldn't say that the assembly is really the place for either of those things, because they're not of the Spirit. Comedy and musicianship are both arts which are learned - and to some extent one has to have a natural aptitude for both. I firmly believe that something is either wholly of the Spirit, or it isn't. I don't believe there's any truth in the idea that the Spirit somehow lends or adds Himself to the works or arts of man, whether that's in musicianship, oratory, comedy, or whatever else. That is saying that worship is a mixture, and that it isn't purely of the Holy Spirit.
Well, Psalm 150 is a typical scripture - there's a great variety of instruments there, all engaged in the praise of God. Wouldn't this speak of the assembly? Each member of that one body in the presence of God, each with their own impression to offer up in worship before Him? I'm sure each of these instruments has a particular typical instruction for us, but I have to admit that I don't know all of them! A subject for study, in the power of the Spirit, for sure.
In Luke 15, we have a parable. The Lord told many parables - some about vineyards, others mentioning trading with money, others about great feasts and wedding feasts, one about a sower, one about a merchant seeking beautiful pearls. If we were to take all of these parables literally, we'd be in awful confusion, wouldn't we? Similarly, in this parable, are we to take the robe, the ring and the shoes, literally, when we come into the presence of God? Or do we understand the spiritual bearing, that we're clothed in all the worth of Christ? Are we literally going to take a fattened calf and kill it? Or are we going to see that as another precious figure of the Lord Jesus, as the Sacrifice for sins, of peculiar delight to God in His excellence? Are we going to take the music and dancing literally, or are we going to take up the spiritual bearing, the joy in heaven over one repenting sinner?
Consistency in how we search out the truth is very important, wouldn't you agree? If we get into the habit of picking and choosing (not that I'm suggesting that you're doing this, brother!) scriptures out the midst of spiritual teaching in order to apply them literally to suit our tastes, we end up with inconsistency. We lose far more than we gain by doing that, so we have to be careful of it.
This merely your opinion, and of course, you are entitled to it.
Yes indeed, “consistency” is a requirement for a logical conclusion or logical truth to be valid.
In the same manner: as I see it:
Arminianism has consistency in their statement towards the conclusion.
As well Calvinism has consistency in their statements towards the conclusion.
And yet, the obvious disagreement on the conclusion remains…..
What then will provide a "One Mind"
BOTH share “One Mind” on the same premise,
No, I would not even call it a premise (assumption) it is a statement of Truth: GRACE ALONE.
@Grant Melville
Greetings and Peace my Brother,
Hey could you explain to me what you meant by the following ((If we were to take all of these parables literally, we'd be in awful confusion, wouldn'twe?)))
I have yet to be able to wrap my mind around how you meant this.
God Bless Brother
Jim
Greetings and Peace my Brother,
Hey could you explain to me what you meant by the following ((If we were to take all of these parables literally, we'd be in awful confusion, wouldn'twe?)))
I have yet to be able to wrap my mind around how you meant this.
God Bless Brother
Jim
Grant........does the idea of a "parable" diminish the fact that it is words from God?
I do not believe that taking a parable as literal would cause confusion. In fact, wasn't the use of parables done to give the disciples a better and more easily understood way of grasping the Lords teaching?
The parable is a method of conveying a truth beyond its strict facts. The Bible as a whole is exactly that itself but that is for another thread.
My point was that you had questioned and rejected musical instruments in worship services and I wanted you to know that they were recorded in the Scriptures as a method of worship.
That was what I hoped you would respond to. ..........
"Musical instruments were used in worship"!