Worship through music

Major said:
Now I am no expert on this at all, but I have in the past done a little work on this, not using musical instruments in worship services. I had a young lady many years ago that brought this up in conversation so I did some research. Again, Grant may not agree with this but it seems that the use of musical instruments was seen as a Catholic innovation, and on those grounds alone it was opposed and continues to be opposed by some Christian denominations today.

Now, not doing something because Catholics do is a Protestant innovation to be sure and its roots go back as far as the RCC itself.
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That's my understanding of the history too: the Reformers expelled the organ from churches, calling it a Roman Catholic innovation. Some accounts trace it to Pope Vitalion in the 7th century.

My own concern isn't primarily about the origin of the innovation, but rather the fact that it is an innovation in the first place. Has any innovation been a good thing, in the history of the testimony?
 
Playing musical instruments in music is not an innovation. It is the heart's response to God's commands to worship with music and instruments and voice. The Reformers threw out the baby with the bathwater, and while they tried to correct the religiosity that set in because of the Roman Catholic Church's sway over people, we in this marvelous age where Holy Spirit is being poured out liberally, need not adhere to the same sort of religiosity of both parties.

So, in fact, this "no instruments" notion is merely an innovation that comes from religion...something that Jesus abhorred.
 
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Grant Melville said:
That's my understanding of the history too: the Reformers expelled the organ from churches, calling it a Roman Catholic innovation. Some accounts trace it to Pope Vitalion in the 7th century.

My own concern isn't primarily about the origin of the innovation, but rather the fact that it is an innovation in the first place. Has any innovation been a good thing, in the history of the testimony?
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Really Grant, instruments date back thousands of years and that is why I posted those Old Test. Scriptures. The musical were not an innovation at all IMO.
 
Euphemia said:
Playing musical instruments in music is not an innovation. It is the hearts response to God's commands to worship with music and instruments and voice. The Reformers threw out the baby with the bathwater, and while they tried to correct the religiosity that set in because of the Roman Catholic Church's sway over people, we in this marvelous age where Holy Spirit is being poured out liberally, need not adhere to the same sort of religiosity of both parties.

So, in fact, this "no instruments" notion is merely an innovation that comes from religion...something that Jesus abhorred.
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I agree with this.
 
Major said:
Really Grant, instruments date back thousands of years and that is why I posted those Old Test. Scriptures. The musical were not an innovation at all IMO.
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Agreed, quite so. Musical instruments were mastered quite early in the history of the human race. However, musical instruments are an innovation when used in Christian worship, as we see from history and the scriptures themselves.
 
Grant Melville said:
Agreed, quite so. Musical instruments were mastered quite early in the history of the human race. However, musical instruments are an innovation when used in Christian worship, as we see from history and the scriptures themselves.
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Well Grant, it is clear that we are not going to reconcile this difference of opinion. I will tell you this about musical instruments being used because I realized that music, be it organ, piano, guitar or whatever used, helped me with focusing my thoughts on God during times like the giving of offerings or the Lord’s Supper.

I do not expect anyone else to fell that way but it definitely is something that I have seen effective in my own life.
 
Euphemia said:
Playing musical instruments in music is not an innovation. It is the heart's response to God's commands to worship with music and instruments and voice. The Reformers threw out the baby with the bathwater, and while they tried to correct the religiosity that set in because of the Roman Catholic Church's sway over people, we in this marvelous age where Holy Spirit is being poured out liberally, need not adhere to the same sort of religiosity of both parties.

So, in fact, this "no instruments" notion is merely an innovation that comes from religion...something that Jesus abhorred.
Click to expand...

Where does God command the believer in the Lord Jesus to worship with anything other than the Holy Spirit, with that worship coming into expression in sung or spoken praise? I don't see it in the scriptures concerning the Church. I don't see the need for it, because we have the Holy Spirit. God, rather than relying on the skills and talents we had before as unconverted men and women, as away from God, has given His only-begotten Son for us, redeemed us and clothed us in His righteousness, brought us near, given us His Spirit. He has given us everything we need to worship Him fully - why do we still cling to nature's ways? The answer is quite plain: if we follow what the scripture teaches, entering into it unreservedly, it puts ME out of sight and makes way for Christ. The natural man doesn't like to be displaced, he likes to feel that he has something to offer. We have to realise that we're poor, destitute, naked - that's the way we came to God, and He clothed us in all the worth of excellence of the Christ. How can we fully enter into appreciation of the perfection of the Lord Jesus, gaze upon His beauty, His moral glory, His countless delightful attributes, if we have one eye still on what Adam can do? No, Jesus must fill our vision completely if we're to be acceptable worshippers, we have to forget self, not give an opportunity for the flesh to pride itself on what nature can offer. We have to get through the exercises of Romans before we can enter into Ephesians. That's the great positive side of this truth. Roman exercises might be hard, but the result is infinitely blessed. I'm glad to be called narrow, legalistic, religious-minded, if that's the cost of being shut up to Christ and having a single eye for Him, being dead in my own estimation, my new life being in Him. I must decrease and He must increase - it's blessedly, wonderfully true! I pray it's more so. All my boasting must be in Him, and there's so much to boast about. The things of man and the world are very impressive and grand, but they pale into insignificance. The incomparable Christ - His glory can't be compared with man's vain-glory. The most active and energetic spectacle the world can offer seems dull and lifeless compared to that fountain of living water, the blessed Spirit of God, rising up in the believer to eternal life!
 
Grant Melville said:
Where does God command the believer in the Lord Jesus to worship with anything other than the Holy Spirit, with that worship coming into expression in sung or spoken praise? I don't see it in the scriptures concerning the Church. I don't see the need for it, because we have the Holy Spirit. God, rather than relying on the skills and talents we had before as unconverted men and women, as away from God, has given His only-begotten Son for us, redeemed us and clothed us in His righteousness, brought us near, given us His Spirit. He has given us everything we need to worship Him fully - why do we still cling to nature's ways? The answer is quite plain: if we follow what the scripture teaches, entering into it unreservedly, it puts ME out of sight and makes way for Christ. The natural man doesn't like to be displaced, he likes to feel that he has something to offer. We have to realise that we're poor, destitute, naked - that's the way we came to God, and He clothed us in all the worth of excellence of the Christ. How can we fully enter into appreciation of the perfection of the Lord Jesus, gaze upon His beauty, His moral glory, His countless delightful attributes, if we have one eye still on what Adam can do? No, Jesus must fill our vision completely if we're to be acceptable worshippers, we have to forget self, not give an opportunity for the flesh to pride itself on what nature can offer. We have to get through the exercises of Romans before we can enter into Ephesians. That's the great positive side of this truth. Roman exercises might be hard, but the result is infinitely blessed. I'm glad to be called narrow, legalistic, religious-minded, if that's the cost of being shut up to Christ and having a single eye for Him, being dead in my own estimation, my new life being in Him. I must decrease and He must increase - it's blessedly, wonderfully true! I pray it's more so. All my boasting must be in Him, and there's so much to boast about. The things of man and the world are very impressive and grand, but they pale into insignificance. The incomparable Christ - His glory can't be compared with man's vain-glory. The most active and energetic spectacle the world can offer seems dull and lifeless compared to that fountain of living water, the blessed Spirit of God, rising up in the believer to eternal life!
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I really love your attitude and respectful way of speaking to others!!! We would ALL benefit from reading your comments and the way they are written. I also love your faith and standing up for what you believe to be the truth.

Excellent --- Excellent work Grant. I agree with almost everything you stated. However, in this particular case I just can not agree with you on the musical instruments thing. That really is not a big deal as I am only an old country boy and no scholar at all.

I want to encourage you to not back away from your beliefs but I do not see any need for me to go back and forth over something that as I do not believe it to be an essential of the Christian faith. As I said, IMO it is a preference and nothing more.

God bless you my young brother and if I can be of any help to you please ask.
 
Major said:
Well Grant, it is clear that we are not going to reconcile this difference of opinion. I will tell you this about musical instruments being used because I realized that music, be it organ, piano, guitar or whatever used, helped me with focusing my thoughts on God during times like the giving of offerings or the Lord’s Supper.

I do not expect anyone else to fell that way but it definitely is something that I have seen effective in my own life.
Click to expand...

I want to be careful not to descend into personal criticism, so I want to be clear that I'm talking about general principles here.

If we feel the need for (or find it helpful to have) instrumental music during worship, doesn't that suggest that the Spirit is not being allowed His full sway with us? That we require some external influence, other than His indwelling power? If we struggle with distraction or we're lacking an impression, then we can turn to the Holy Spirit to supply those needs, and He delights to do that. He delights in complete dependence by us on Him.

I'm sure it'll be argued, in opposition to that suggestion, that the Holy Spirit somehow blesses, anoints, or inhabits the music played by Christians. This is a wholly unscriptural idea, and nowhere in the New Testament, or in any of the many references to musical instruments in the Old Testament is such a thing ever substantiated. We have to be quite clear about that. We might want it to be so, but it's pure imagination, and indulging flights of fancy concerning the work of a divine Person is dangerous, to say the least.
 
Major said:
I really love your attitude and respectful way of speaking to others!!! We would ALL benefit from reading your comments and the way they are written. I also love your faith and standing up for what you believe to be the truth.

Excellent --- Excellent work Grant. I agree with almost everything you stated. However, in this particular case I just can not agree with you on the musical instruments thing. That really is not a big deal as I am only an old country boy and no scholar at all.

I want to encourage you to not back away from your beliefs but I do not see any need for me to go back and forth over something that as I do not believe it to be an essential of the Christian faith. As I said, IMO it is a preference and nothing more.

God bless you my young brother and if I can be of any help to you please ask.
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Well... God has taught me through long and painful experience how not to speak to others. I still have a good deal to learn about it, but I would hope I have learned something through well-deserved and loving chastening from the hand of my Father.

I think we do get to a point in these discussions where we've had it all out and that's all there is to be said. It's not compromise or agreeing to differ... I believe it's just coming to a realisation that we can't force our beliefs on one another. Even if it's a right belief, if it's forced it won't be held in the heart. I believe the Lord Jesus touches us in our affections when He wants to teach us something. I've resisted so many truths of our faith in the past through hard-heartedness and stiff-necked pride, but the Lord in His grace has softened my heart and made it His own, a place into which He can bring precious impressions of Himself. These things are treasures. I cannot compare all my skill, my utmost effort, my finest talent, with just one precious impression of Jesus. I can't think that they're worth anything at all compared with what the Holy Spirit has placed in my heart. My righteousnesses are filthy rags before God, but He has given me His Righteousness.

What I would most like to be occupied with is Jesus. But, at times, we touch on things which concern Him, things which (I believe) would intrude on our appreciation of Him, and holding of Him as the sole Object of faith's vision and Occupier of the heart's throne. That's when I get drawn into these discussions, like we've been having. I've come to understand (to a very small extent) that what is not of Christ is not worth defending, not worth contending for. So much in this world is not worth our energy or our time. I would gladly give it up, let it pass by, even insults, even slander, if it's not against my beloved Lord. That said, it's easy to speak up and be brave among fellow believers, but how often do I hear the Lord's name taken in vain and just keep my head down. Too often. I feel it. I know that I can never love Him enough. That is, of course, another reason for me not to be occupied with myself and my feeble, flickering affections, and dwell on His great Love. Love like that deserves a capital letter, it is Love. Love so amazing, so divine, as the songwriter says! It demands my soul, my life, my all.

Thank you, Major. You've been patient and gracious with me. Thank you for your offer of help. I'm in no doubt that if we're left here much longer, then I'll certainly be taking advantage of it, and not for the first time.
 
I get what you are saying @Grant Melville but I would say that singing God's praises is not an innovation. We are told that the angels sang/sing in worship of God from the creation. Lucifer was created with musical instruments in his body and because of this many people believe he led the worship in Heaven. I admit I haven't picked up a paint brush or written a poem in years - but there were times when writing a poem that I didn't actually know I had written but it could have (physically) been no one else that moved me and reminded me of God. The same with some pictures I painted. I have heard/seen many other artists say the same thing. When I was younger and didn't know any better - I attributed them to me but I always knew they didn't come directly from me. somehow. It's part of the reflection of God's glory. As I said before...the book of Psalms is a book of hymns and selah is believed to be a musical direction.

Exo_15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Num_21:17 Then Israel sang this song, Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it:
Jdg_5:1 Then sang Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam on that day, saying,
1Sa_29:5 Is not this David, of whom they sang one to another in dances, saying, Saul slew his thousands, and David his ten thousands?
2Ch_29:28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.
2Ch_29:30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.
Ezr_3:11 And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid.
Neh_12:42 And Maaseiah, and Shemaiah, and Eleazar, and Uzzi, and Jehohanan, and Malchijah, and Elam, and Ezer. And the singers sang loud, with Jezrahiah their overseer.
Job_38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Psa_7:1 Shiggaion of David, which he sang unto the LORD, concerning the words of Cush the Benjamite. O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:
Psa_106:12 Then believed they his words; they sang his praise.
Act_16:25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

 
Silk said:
I get what you are saying @Grant Melville but I would say that singing God's praises is not an innovation. We are told that the angels sang/sing in worship of God from the creation. Lucifer was created with musical instruments in his body and because of this many people believe he led the worship in Heaven. I admit I haven't picked up a paint brush or written a poem in years - but there were times when writing a poem that I didn't actually know I had written but it could have (physically) been no one else that moved me and reminded me of God. The same with some pictures I painted. I have heard/seen many other artists say the same thing. When I was younger and didn't know any better - I attributed them to me but I always knew they didn't come directly from me. somehow. It's part of the reflection of God's glory. As I said before...the book of Psalms is a book of hymns and selah is believed to be a musical direction.

Exo_15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Num_21:17 Then Israel sang this song, Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it:
Jdg_5:1 Then sang Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam on that day, saying,
1Sa_29:5 Is not this David, of whom they sang one to another in dances, saying, Saul slew his thousands, and David his ten thousands?
2Ch_29:28 And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.
2Ch_29:30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.
Ezr_3:11 And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid.
Neh_12:42 And Maaseiah, and Shemaiah, and Eleazar, and Uzzi, and Jehohanan, and Malchijah, and Elam, and Ezer. And the singers sang loud, with Jezrahiah their overseer.
Job_38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Psa_7:1 Shiggaion of David, which he sang unto the LORD, concerning the words of Cush the Benjamite. O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:
Psa_106:12 Then believed they his words; they sang his praise.
Act_16:25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

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Yes, singing is excellent, and an important part of worship in the assembly. I really cherish the fact that we're encouraged by the scriptures to sing. In the local fellowship there are two brothers (father and son) who aren't able to sing in tune at all. The son in particular at one point tended not to sing out, because he didn't want to put other people off. Recently though, when I've been sitting next to him in the gathering, I've heard him singing out with more confidence. It's completely tuneless, but I love to hear it. I love to listen to the brethren around me singing, and sing with them, all of us united in a single theme of praise. No-one should be prevented from singing in the company of the saints, or feel that they need to be quiet. After all, it isn't the tune that matters, it's the words of the hymn or song that strike a chord in our hearts.

I was thinking recently of Acts 16, and we touched on it yesterday in our inquiry into the Word, because we were reading the first chapter of Philippians. Paul and Silas, having had their clothes torn from them, having been scourged (with many stripes), and then thrown into the inner prison, with their feet in the stocks, and at the darkest hour of the night... yet still we find them praying and praising God with singing! This is a real spirit of worship. Not bound by outward restrictions, not discouraged by the violence of the enemy, not encroached upon by the darkness all around! Their voices couldn't be taken from them, and that was all they needed to give full expression to what was in their heart. Their life, hid with the Christ in God, couldn't be touched by circumstances and pressures of the most extreme kind. I think we see that in Paul's epistle.
 
Grant Melville said:
Agreed, quite so. Musical instruments were mastered quite early in the history of the human race. However, musical instruments are an innovation when used in Christian worship, as we see from history and the scriptures themselves.
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Instruments are NOT an innovation in worship, as they have been used since the BEGINNING---since Israel was being established---right through to Pentecost, right up until today, with no break in between!
 
Grant Melville said:
Where does God command the believer in the Lord Jesus to worship with anything other than the Holy Spirit, with that worship coming into expression in sung or spoken praise? I don't see it in the scriptures concerning the Church. I don't see the need for it, because we have the Holy Spirit. God, rather than relying on the skills and talents we had before as unconverted men and women, as away from God, has given His only-begotten Son for us, redeemed us and clothed us in His righteousness, brought us near, given us His Spirit. He has given us everything we need to worship Him fully - why do we still cling to nature's ways? The answer is quite plain: if we follow what the scripture teaches, entering into it unreservedly, it puts ME out of sight and makes way for Christ. The natural man doesn't like to be displaced, he likes to feel that he has something to offer. We have to realise that we're poor, destitute, naked - that's the way we came to God, and He clothed us in all the worth of excellence of the Christ. How can we fully enter into appreciation of the perfection of the Lord Jesus, gaze upon His beauty, His moral glory, His countless delightful attributes, if we have one eye still on what Adam can do? No, Jesus must fill our vision completely if we're to be acceptable worshippers, we have to forget self, not give an opportunity for the flesh to pride itself on what nature can offer. We have to get through the exercises of Romans before we can enter into Ephesians. That's the great positive side of this truth. Roman exercises might be hard, but the result is infinitely blessed. I'm glad to be called narrow, legalistic, religious-minded, if that's the cost of being shut up to Christ and having a single eye for Him, being dead in my own estimation, my new life being in Him. I must decrease and He must increase - it's blessedly, wonderfully true! I pray it's more so. All my boasting must be in Him, and there's so much to boast about. The things of man and the world are very impressive and grand, but they pale into insignificance. The incomparable Christ - His glory can't be compared with man's vain-glory. The most active and energetic spectacle the world can offer seems dull and lifeless compared to that fountain of living water, the blessed Spirit of God, rising up in the believer to eternal life!
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Well, it's not about you and how you see it. It is all about the Lord Jesus Christ and our complete and utter abandonment to full worship with all we have: body, mind, spirit...and anything we have in our hands to do, we are commanded to do with all our might as unto the Lord, and THAT includes musical instruments.

We are no longer "poor, destitute and naked". We are King's kids, clothed in His righteousness!

Being considered "narrow, legalistic and religious-minded" is a detriment to one's witness.
 
Grant Melville said:
If we feel the need for (or find it helpful to have) instrumental music during worship, doesn't that suggest that the Spirit is not being allowed His full sway with us?
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A big NO to that one. It's not about how we feel. It's about what God desires.

I'm sure it'll be argued, in opposition to that suggestion, that the Holy Spirit somehow blesses, anoints, or inhabits the music played by Christians. This is a wholly unscriptural idea, and nowhere in the New Testament, or in any of the many references to musical instruments in the Old Testament is such a thing ever substantiated. We have to be quite clear about that. We might want it to be so, but it's pure imagination, and indulging flights of fancy concerning the work of a divine Person is dangerous, to say the least.
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It is ONLY scriptural that God inhabits the praises of His people. Holy Spirit worked His power in the playing of an instrument by David, where Saul, vexed by an evil spirit was quieted and soothed by such anointing. Holy Spirit hasn't stopped that. THAT'S clear.

"Imagination"and "flights of fancy" don't even enter into this discussion, so you would be well advised to cease with that description and terminology.
 
Silk said:
How is that "helpful"?
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Believe me...it is very helpful, lest someone stumble into guilt for worshiping the Lord with instrumental accompaniment...somehow believing that he or she has indulged in carnality---when that is not the case. As for imagination, it is God-given, and with the Holy Spirit empowering us, there are great things that God can bring forth from us through the righteous employment of it. After all, God encouraged Abraham to use his imagination, with images of the stars of the sky and the sands of the seashore as descriptors of his innumerable descendants.
 
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