Yes...as the Lord commanded you...
Would Jesus Break The Law?
- Thread starter Brian J. Rivera
- Start date
Yes...as the Lord commanded you...
Yes I was using the term in a generic sense...you are correct, that was the point I was making...the gleaning of the fields like in Ruth was work and this was entirely different. Scripture bird and I will have to agree to disagree. The passage she quoted says nothing to this issue.
Actually that translates from Hebrew to read: Observe the Sabbath day to sanctify it.
Shamor et yom ha-Shabbat l'kad'sho) -Deuteronomy 5:12
I think what the focus here is about is the Pharisee's and the laws they pressed and oversaw and prosecuted.
Those scriptures that relate to part of the contention the Temple authorities had with Jesus and his ministry was that he, in their opinion, violated the law in the course of carrying out his ministry.
The Pharisees did not see Yeshua/Jesus as the Messiah. But as a mere man boldly challenging tradition and their authority. Hence the charge of blasphemy when he forgave sins and called himself the son of God.
His "law breaking" was after all what ultimately caused them to ask for his crucifixion. Based on the charge of blasphemy against him and that offense as one worthy of death.
And as we all know, or should know, there are other examples of Jesus breaking the law as relates to no work on the Sabbath.
Remember when he healed the withered hand of a man on the Sabbath in Mark 3:1-6?
All of this was purposeful. As we remember Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. When the savior has arrived on earth and walks among fallen man, the law that was to keep them in check, what is so well known as the "law of Moses", which was actually the law of God, but dictated to Moses, was incarnate and no longer applicable. As it was the old testament. And Yeshua was the embodiment of the new covenant brought forth to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
His actions weren't those demonstrated by a mere mortal and blasphemer! When Jesus worked on the Sabbath, and violated Torah law, he healed a man right in front of witnesses that would otherwise have found him in violation of the law of God. But healing a man's withered hand on the Sabbath? That wasn't something done by a simple Jewish man rebelling against the law.
Rats!! I agree and disagree with you Scripture Bird.
I'd say in a nutshell (or anywhere else I can be heard
), that Jesus never broke the Law.....period.
Point 1. He was without sin totally else His death on the cross would be meaningless to all except Himself.
Point 2. Jesus applied /kept the law as it was meant to be applied, not as sinful fallen man wrongly interpreted it.
When Jesus healed on the sabbath etc. He fulfilled the law rather than broke it....why? Because the requirement of the law of sabbath keeping was to keep that day holy to the Lord. He did the Lord's will on those days, not opposed it. Had Jesus looked on a cripple and just said "Oh how sad...my heart bleeds for you. Make an appointment to see me Wednesday week" How would that be holy to the Lord? No Jesus never once broke the law..He just set the record straight.
I'd say in a nutshell (or anywhere else I can be heard
), that Jesus never broke the Law.....period.Point 1. He was without sin totally else His death on the cross would be meaningless to all except Himself.
Point 2. Jesus applied /kept the law as it was meant to be applied, not as sinful fallen man wrongly interpreted it.
When Jesus healed on the sabbath etc. He fulfilled the law rather than broke it....why? Because the requirement of the law of sabbath keeping was to keep that day holy to the Lord. He did the Lord's will on those days, not opposed it. Had Jesus looked on a cripple and just said "Oh how sad...my heart bleeds for you. Make an appointment to see me Wednesday week" How would that be holy to the Lord? No Jesus never once broke the law..He just set the record straight.
So you acknowledge that breaking the oral law is not sin? (It is not.)
This we all know.
This we also know.
Which is not, under any circumstances, sin. You agree -- right?
Yes, according to Scripture.
That He walks among fallen people, I have agreed; that the Torah of Moses is G-d's Torah, many do not acknowledge; I am glad to read that you do. That it is no longer applicable, Scripture Bird, I cannot agree, will not agree, and I have to admit that I am surprised that you write this.
"Old testament": the declaration of a heretic that people have accepted. The new covenant has not yet been fulfilled. So why accept what the heretic declared?
He Never Violated Torah -- the Law He made -- or we are declaring him to be a liar. Healing does not violate Torah!! If you believe this, Please, Please, Please show me the Scripture!
Are you not aware that there is an oral torah and a written torah? The oral torah elucidates the written.
Is it considered working on the Sabbath?
I'm a Christian, not a Jew.
I don't know what you're saying here.
Why? You don't accept what has been shown thus far.
Perhaps you should read up on Torah, oral and written, and the prohibition on working on the Sabbath.
Okay. I give up. I must not be able to write what I am trying to say, or you must have a problem with my knowledge of Torah. I will debate, but I argue with no one.. You really need to brush up on your own re Torah and written torah, if you are going to write about it. Let's move on to other things.
Just to interject this because I was under the assumption this was known to Christians here. Jesus was born sinless. He did not have a sin nature. Though he was born of woman, he was God incarnate.
This means when he worked on the Sabbath, considered violating the torah and a sin under the law, he remained sinless. Which may be why he did these forbidden things on the Sabbath.
To show the law keepers that he was not a normal man.
This means when he worked on the Sabbath, considered violating the torah and a sin under the law, he remained sinless. Which may be why he did these forbidden things on the Sabbath.
To show the law keepers that he was not a normal man.
This may help you to learn the differences between oral and written Torah.
LINK
Torah sheba'al Peh -
The Oral Torah and Jewish Tradition
That's about right. 
Rats!! I agree and disagree with you Scripture Bird.
I'd say in a nutshell (or anywhere else I can be heard
Point 1. He was without sin totally else His death on the cross would be meaningless to all except Himself.
Point 2. Jesus applied /kept the law as it was meant to be applied, not as sinful fallen man wrongly interpreted it.
When Jesus healed on the sabbath etc. He fulfilled the law rather than broke it....why? Because the requirement of the law of sabbath keeping was to keep that day holy to the Lord. He did the Lord's will on those days, not opposed it. Had Jesus looked on a cripple and just said "Oh how sad...my heart bleeds for you. Make an appointment to see me Wednesday week" How would that be holy to the Lord? No Jesus never once broke the law..He just set the record straight.
I was going to just not answer any more of this but later decided this was unfair to you. I was rather surprised at what you wrote above, because it was, well, so "off." You are obviously interested in the Bible and in Hebrew, and that is wonderful! But you are either new to Hebrew studies or you are learning from a teacher who does not really know his subject.
I decided it was only right for me to look at the site you offered. There, I learned that your teacher is basically self-taught. He is honest about not having an education but working his way through Hebrew over years and trusting the L-rd to show him the spiritual meaning of the words. Well, that sounds real spiritual and all, but one must learn the language first, just as you and I have learned English, learned to read, then learned what the Bible says http://www.hebrew4christians.com/About_HFC/about_hfc.html. Sure, he wrote for Zola Levitt, but true Hebrew scholars would tell you that while Levitt was a radio and TV teacher, he certainly was not a Hebrew, Torah, or Torah-living expert.
Further, learning a language as your teacher did makes no one an expert on living Torah. Well, enough written.
You sound enthusiastic. Good! Keep that! I had learners' zeal and made many mistakes in that zeal, thinking I knew things I did not know in the early years, and I often thought I had way more knowledge than I really did. As you continue your studies, you will realize that what you know is little compared to what you need to know. I am still there.
I would suggest that if you are a serious student, as I think you are, you find a teacher at a higher level than a site on the Internet. I hope you are able to find a university-level real-life teacher whose classes you can attend -- one who is living out Torah, who is not trying to exalt himself, who is not only a teacher but also a learner.
Just so you know, I have been studying Torah living since 1994 or so, attending Sabbath services where Hebrew is read, sang, and spoken regularly since early 1999, I've taken two years of Hebrew from a university professor (which is not nearly enough, but I can't do more and continue working). This is merely to tell you where I am coming from, and why, with regard to my remarks.
Last edited:
I think the concept was already understood? (Post#51)
That's about right.
Rats!! I agree and disagree with you Scripture Bird.
I'd say in a nutshell (or anywhere else I can be heard
Point 1. He was without sin totally else His death on the cross would be meaningless to all except Himself.
Point 2. Jesus applied /kept the law as it was meant to be applied, not as sinful fallen man wrongly interpreted it.
When Jesus healed on the sabbath etc. He fulfilled the law rather than broke it....why? Because the requirement of the law of sabbath keeping was to keep that day holy to the Lord. He did the Lord's will on those days, not opposed it. Had Jesus looked on a cripple and just said "Oh how sad...my heart bleeds for you. Make an appointment to see me Wednesday week" How would that be holy to the Lord? No Jesus never once broke the law..He just set the record straight.
So what you attest is that God can break the Sabbath because he is God?
Exactly! That's why he was boldly breaking the law that was written to be obeyed by the mortals who watched in awe as he did so.
That's great.
But when you say that Jesus working on the Sabbath did not qualify as breaking the Torah law, you are wrong.
You can criticize internet sites all you wish. But when you make that proclamation about your background and yet you don't know the basic truth about working on the Sabbath, especially when the Pharisee confronted Jesus and his disciples for their violation , working on the Sabbath, you demonstrate you're not all that well read or practiced.
It's scripture in the Christian Bible!
How you miss that is beyond me. But I'm not going to belabor the point. You've already said enough.
But when you say that Jesus working on the Sabbath did not qualify as breaking the Torah law, you are wrong.
You can criticize internet sites all you wish. But when you make that proclamation about your background and yet you don't know the basic truth about working on the Sabbath, especially when the Pharisee confronted Jesus and his disciples for their violation , working on the Sabbath, you demonstrate you're not all that well read or practiced.
It's scripture in the Christian Bible!
How you miss that is beyond me. But I'm not going to belabor the point. You've already said enough.
Luke 6:3King James Version (KJV)
3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
I am aghast that you would even suggest that The King would break his own commands when he is the most faithful and the only one good.
He did not break them. He gave an example of how Sabbath was supposed to be.
God cannot break his own Laws. If he did he would NOT be God.