Wages Of Sin?
- Thread starter Phoneman777
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I agree with every word you just said, and will add that "she that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth." 1 tim 5:6. What does that have to do with the fact that I've shown all of your "proof" texts for the idea that we are spirits that inhabit bodies, are actually texts that prove the Bible truth that the spirit is a COMPONENT of the soul, which is the combination of body and spirit? BTW, since whenever the Bible speaks of spiritual death it puts it in the present tense, as in the case of the above verse, we know that when God said through Ezekiel that "The soul that sinneth SHALL die" (FUTURE TENSE), this speaks NOT of some spiritual death of a soul, but the real, literal destruction and extinction of the soul.
Bro, you don't get to redefine Biblical terms in order to advance a spiritual proposition. The BODY consists of elements on the periodic table. The BREATH OF LIFE, or SPIRIT, is the life giving principle from that He breaths in to animate man and beast and returns to Him upon death of that man or beast, and the SOUL is the combination of the two, according to Genesis 2:7.
The spirit is not what you'd like it to be: some distinct, personal, ghostly, human shaped poltergeist that looks like a transparent person which sometimes appears and hovers above a seance table and tells Aunt Betty where to find the missing life insurance policy, or sometimes is caught on security cameras a night walking around the mall. That is demonic deception found in all false religious systems and perpetuated by Hollywood. The Spirit, again, is described in the Bible as the life giving power of God to animate the inanimate, and nothing more. Stop insisting it is anything more unless you have Bible to back it up.
The spirit is not what you'd like it to be: some distinct, personal, ghostly, human shaped poltergeist that looks like a transparent person which sometimes appears and hovers above a seance table and tells Aunt Betty where to find the missing life insurance policy, or sometimes is caught on security cameras a night walking around the mall. That is demonic deception found in all false religious systems and perpetuated by Hollywood. The Spirit, again, is described in the Bible as the life giving power of God to animate the inanimate, and nothing more. Stop insisting it is anything more unless you have Bible to back it up.
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Wrong!
There need not be any confusion here, brother. Jesus' died the SECOND death - He experienced the horror and agony of conscious separation from the Father, which made His physical wounds almost imperceptive, and is what killed Him, praise be to the wonderful, merciful Savior, precious redeemer and Friend. This was the so called "wrath of God poured out without mixture (of mercy) into the cup of His indignation" spoken of Revelation 14; it was pure, undiluted wrath which no man has ever experienced in death.
Jesus' atoning sacrifice was never meant in any way to be a guarantee that men would not experience the FIRST death that all men eventually die, but was a guarantee that believers would be spared the SECOND death, which Jesus died for us, which we both agree is the penalty for sin, not eternal torment, for Jesus never experienced that. Jesus Himself declares in John 11, "If any man believe in Me, though he were dead (the first death), yet he shall live (be resurrected in eternal glory)." We have to be born twice, or we'll die twice, as is the proverbial expression.
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You are still not getting it, man is not just body and soul. He is spirit, soul, and body, as scripture proves. Man's soul did not die in the garden of Eden, it was his spirit that died and it turned dark, which left him with out the ability to sense the spiritual world around him. His ability to know his maker was turned off.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Luke 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
When you are dead spiritually your spirit is filled with darkness, when you alive spiritually your spirit is filled with the light of God.
This does not happen until you become a new creation in Christ by the new birth.
Maybe you don't know how the spirit, soul and body work together. Please allow me to speak according to my understanding.
When man became a living "soul" Adam was fully conscience and aware of his physical surroundings because of his physical body.
Yet, at the same time Adam was fully conscience and aware of his spiritual surroundings because of his spirit. The "soul" of man was the part were his conscience, will, and emotions dwelled. The soul receives information from the physical body, and from the spirit of man. It is in mans "soul" that he is conscience of both worlds at the same time, spiritual, and physical. When Adam sinned he lost the ability to operated in the spiritual world as he lost his spirit to sin, and darkness. Adam was forced to now depend on his fleshly body to guide him in all of his decisions in life, with out the help from God. Anyone who depends on the arm of the flesh is cursed. Jesus is the one who restores our spirit from death to life, from darkness to light. Now every born again Christian can once again operate in both worlds the spiritual and the physical at the same time.
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Am I wrong about the body being made of elements found on the periodic table? 5th grade Life Science, bro.
Or, about defining the spirit as that which God imparts to a creature to give life, which returns back to Him at death, be it a saint, sinner, or Howler monkey? Genesis 2:7, Eccl 12:7, and Gen 7:22.
Or, am I wrong about the equation Body + Breath = Living Soul? Genesis 2:7. It appears your prob is not with me, but the Bible. Let 2 Tim 3:16 help you: "ALL scripture is God BREATHED." Hey, that sounds like Hebrews 4:12 "The Word of God is ALIVE." Hmmmm....breathed....alive....breathed....alive...hmmmmmm.
I see the problem. You seem to be laying aside the clear, lucid Biblical definition of man of Genesis 2:7 so that you may allow Paul's words (sometimes hard to be understood) in 1 Thess 5:23 to redefine what man is. Is it not reasonable to conclude that Paul's words were simply characteristic of his often high and lofty discourse? His "spirit, soul, body" exhortation can easily be explained to be simply him saying, "I'm praying for you, part and whole." The only way we can say he intended to mean "3 individual parts" is to completely ignore other verses like Genesis 2:7 that clearly DO NOT teach that, but teach 2 parts (body + breath) = the whole (soul).
Also, it seems to me that you are confusing the SYMBOLIC idea of "spiritual death", which simply means that Adam's nature CHANGED from perfect to fallen, with the LITERAL idea of God's spirit as a COMPONENT or VARIABLE in the equation BODY + SPIRIT = SOUL. I think that if we would allow the words of Genesis to have their bearing on the N T issue of the "spirit", it would be most helpful.
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You can not take a scripture and make a doctrine from it. You have to compare other scriptures and then come to a conclusion which only the Holy Spirit can show. If Paul says we are spirit, soul, and body, then that is what we are. Each part is separate yet they make up the man. If you take the body away you still have a soul, and spirit. The body is not the soul or part of it, it stands on its own. The real person is the spirit man which is also known as the "hidden man of the heart" the heart is mans spirit. Paul says our outward man (Body) is perishing, but the "inward man" (spirit) is being renewed day by day.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Word of God separates each part of man as Soul, spirit, and body
Was not man created in the image God? spirit, soul, and body. Father, Son, Holy Spirit? Which part of the Godhead are you eliminating?
If man is body + spirit = soul, then when Adam died on the day he fell then that would mean his spirit died which means his soul died to which means he should have just dropped dead on the spot. as it is written "the body without the spirit is dead!!!!"I see the problem. You seem to be laying aside the clear, lucid Biblical definition of man of Genesis 2:7 so that you may allow Paul's words (sometimes hard to be understood) in 1 Thess 5:23 to redefine what man is. Is it not reasonable to conclude that Paul's words were simply characteristic of his often high and lofty discourse? His "spirit, soul, body" exhortation can easily be explained to be simply him saying, "I'm praying for you, part and whole." The only way we can say he intended to mean "3 individual parts" is to completely ignore other verses like Genesis 2:7 that clearly DO NOT teach that, but teach 2 parts (body + breath) = the whole (soul).
Also, it seems to me that you are confusing the SYMBOLIC idea of "spiritual death", which simply means that Adam's nature CHANGED from perfect to fallen, with the LITERAL idea of God's spirit as a COMPONENT or VARIABLE in the equation BODY + SPIRIT = SOUL. I think that if we would allow the woherds of Genesis to have their bearing on the N T issue of the "spirit", it would be most helpful.
I could explain it but I don t think you would be able to understand...?
What do you mean, "IF man is body + spirit = soul"? In what alternative universe does it not? Read it for yourself in the original: "God formed man of the Dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life and Dust of the ground became a Living Soul." Genesis 2:7
Adam and Eve didn't die the day they sinned b/c lambs died in their place - lambs which pointed to the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." God's Spirit which He breathes into His lifeless creatures to animate them is not subject to death - it returns to Him upon the death of His creatures. The expression "spiritual death" has nothing to do with the death any spirit, it is simply a phrase meaning "fallen nature". You sound like you have a Jonah complex - all disappointed b/c God was merciful to the sinners.
Yeah, I can't understand why people hold fast to tradition at the expense of truth.
There need not be any confusion here, brother. Jesus' died the SECOND death - He experienced the horror and agony of conscious separation from the Father, which made His physical wounds almost imperceptive, and is what killed Him, praise be to the wonderful, merciful Savior, precious redeemer and Friend. This was the so called "wrath of God poured out without mixture (of mercy) into the cup of His indignation" spoken of Revelation 14; it was pure, undiluted wrath which no man has ever experienced in death.
Jesus' atoning sacrifice was never meant in any way to be a guarantee that men would not experience the FIRST death that all men eventually die, but was a guarantee that believers would be spared the SECOND death, which Jesus died for us, which we both agree is the penalty for sin, not eternal torment, for Jesus never experienced that. Jesus Himself declares in John 11, "If any man believe in Me, though he were dead (the first death), yet he shall live (be resurrected in eternal glory)." We have to be born twice, or we'll die twice, as is the proverbial expression.
I'm can't say I agree here. I don't hold the Penal model of the Atonement so I don't see Jesus' death a payment to God.
There is a difference between the definition of something and the result of something. Separation from God is the result of death not the meaning of it.
In the English, "soul" refers to the person, as in "S.O.S." = Save Our Souls....or "All souls on deck!" meaning all persons report on deck. But the actual soul of a person is the seat of the mind, will and emotions---the personality of the individual and is separate from the body and the spirit of the person.
No lambs died in Adam and Eve's place that pointed to Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, but blood was spilled in the killing of an unknown animal whose skin was used to cover their nakedness.
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The thing is that the passages that speak of the destruction of the wicked vastly out weigh the passages that are supposed to prove Eternal Conscious Torment. There are a handful of misunderstood passages that are used and the overwhelming evidence is simply ignored.
You cant seem to even understand the context of this discussion? How will you understand the things that are reserved for the righteous and spiritual?
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