Do Angels Have An Earthly Ministry Today?

[agua]

I don't think that is specific enough, but maybe it is. Here is an extraction from BDAG with full credits.

οἰκητήριον, ου, τό (οἰκητήρ = οἰκητή ‘inhabitant’, cp. οἰκήτωρ; Eur., Democr.+; Cebes 17, 3 εὐδαιμόνων οἰκ.; Plut., Mor. 60b; UPZ 17a, 23 [127 b.c.]; BGU 1167, 33 [12b.c.]; POxy 235, 14 astrological term ‘house [of Kronos=Saturn]’ w. οἶκος lines 15 and 16; POxy 281, 11; ins in GPlaumann, Ptolemais 1910 p. 35 [76/75 b.c.]; 2 Macc 11:2; En 27:2; TestSol; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 153; Tat. 13, 2) a place for living, dwelling, habitation, of angels (Ps.-Aristot., De Mundo 2, 2 heaven as the οἰκητήριον θεοῦ or 3, 4 τῶν ἄνω θεῶν) ἀπολιπεῖν τὸ ἴδιον οἰκ. abandon one’s own dwelling Jd 6 (cp. POxy 235 above; ἴδιον οἰκ. as Cornutus 24 p. 45, 21; for the subject matter cp. En 15:3ff; Jos., Ant. 1, 73).—The glorified body of a transfigured Christian, dwelling (alternating w. οἰκία, οἰκοδομή vs. 1) 2 Cor 5:2 (s. on σκῆνος and the lit. on γυμνός 1b).—DELG s.v. οἶκο C. M-M. TW.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. 2000. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. "Based on Walter Bauer's Griechisch-deutsches Wr̲terbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der frhüchristlichen [sic] Literatur, sixth edition, ed. Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, with Viktor Reichmann and on previous English editions by W.F. Arndt, F.W. Gingrich, and F.W. Danker." (3rd ed.) . University of Chicago Press: Chicago

The word has a few different applications depending on not only context but the grammatical construction of the sentence.
As you can see it can refer to a house in astrological terms, the dwelling place of angels and or as well as the house/dwelling of God, or as the glorified resurrection body.
In my opinion we can't infer one meaning only.

Sure. Remember though this word is only used twice in the Bible and the usage, including the grammar, can be considered consistent with "spiritual body". It will be difficult to definitively claim consistency though, from the Bible, with only 2 usages. I notice the BDAG draws on several sources including Maccabees. I like those books.

Do you accept any credibility in the Book of Enoch ?

 

[agua]

Yes, I suppose it would depend on when Job was written about and when the angels that sinned, sinned. But notice that the angels that sinned spoken of by Peter and Jude are not called 'sons of God' who sinned.

I think we have indication of several instances in the Bible where Angels sinned but there's possibly another interesting tie to Noah's day in 1 Peter 3 that gives credibilty to them being the ones mentioed in Jude and 2 Peter 4 imo. Yeah Peter and jude don't call the angels Sons of God but I think there're many instances where terminolgy differs from OT to NT though. Sheol vs Hades eg etc.

 

[Major]

So how does this law of first mention work with these Sons of God ? Also you didn't answer my question whether Moses and Elijah were actually with Jesus at the Transfiguration what do you think ?

I don't trust your authority on theology atm and can see good argument for Michael being the Restrainer. Can you show me the work and purpose of the Holy Spirit as defined by Jesus to His Disciples that discounts Michael being the Restrainer ? Like I said I'm not convinced Michael is the Restrainer but there're other inconsitencies that seem to suggest the Holy Spirit isn't.

BTW if you wish claim your theology is the authority here then we probably shouldn't be wasting our time in discussions. It's better to simply present your argument and let the reader decide its merit without claiming the high ground or attempting to discredit the opposing position by suggesting it isn't Biblical etc. What do you think ?

Nice to have talked with you. Have a wonderful day and may God bless you.

 

[Abdicate]

Despite some beliefs, God is outside of time as are those of His, Eph 2:6, 1 Joh 4:17, unbound by time and place, Act 8:39. It is therefore my belief that when Jesus was transfigured, Elijah presented himself from heaven and Moses from Mt. Sinai. The word does say Moses spoke to God face to face, Deu 34:10 and that's when the transfiguration happened. When they parted, Moses went down the people fled from him. When Jesus went down the people ran to Him. What were they talking about? Jesus. This is how Moses knew Another would come greater than he, Deu 18:15.

I find it sad that believers will be the first to tell you about the miracles of the word of God and yet find it equally impossible to believe it in their own lives. When you bring up the subject they want proof, just like the pharisees. So to them will no sign be given. Faith. It's all about faith. We all need to learn that from Enoch.

 

[calvin]

Sure. Remember though this word is only used twice in the Bible and the usage, including the grammar, can be considered consistent with "spiritual body". It will be difficult to definitively claim consistency though, from the Bible, with only 2 usages. I notice the BDAG draws on several sources including Maccabees. I like those books.

Do you accept any credibility in the Book of Enoch ?

Only twice....there you have a good example of the law of first mention.
As for the Book of Enoch, no even though it is quoted by Jude. Enoch did not write it , it had several authors and is classed as pseudepigraphical.
I believe Jude quoted from it because it was a writing well known to his readership much as we might quote some article in 'Time Magazine' to make a point.

 

[calvin]

I think we have indication of several instances in the Bible where Angels sinned but there's possibly another interesting tie to Noah's day in 1 Peter 3 that gives credibilty to them being the ones mentioed in Jude and 2 Peter 4 imo. Yeah Peter and jude don't call the angels Sons of God but I think there're many instances where terminolgy differs from OT to NT though. Sheol vs Hades eg etc.

Not sure of your intended point. The OT was written in Hebrew, NT in Greek. Different languages, different words, same meaning.

 

[agua]

Despite some beliefs, God is outside of time as are those of His, Eph 2:6, 1 Joh 4:17, unbound by time and place, Act 8:39. It is therefore my belief that when Jesus was transfigured, Elijah presented himself from heaven and Moses from Mt. Sinai. The word does say Moses spoke to God face to face, Deu 34:10 and that's when the transfiguration happened. When they parted, Moses went down the people fled from him. When Jesus went down the people ran to Him. What were they talking about? Jesus. This is how Moses knew Another would come greater than he, Deu 18:15.

I find it sad that believers will be the first to tell you about the miracles of the word of God and yet find it equally impossible to believe it in their own lives. When you bring up the subject they want proof, just like the pharisees. So to them will no sign be given. Faith. It's all about faith. We all need to learn that from Enoch.

Interesting assessment of the Transiguration event I haven't heard it before. I agree that Yahweh's miracles are often dismissed and sometimes they're so mundane they slip by right under our noses imo. Unfortunately there's an element of false claims in the Church as well because some people feel obliged to present the miraculous.

 

[agua]

Only twice....there you have a good example of the law of first mention.
As for the Book of Enoch, no even though it is quoted by Jude. Enoch did not write it , it had several authors and is classed as pseudepigraphical.
I believe Jude quoted from it because it was a writing well known to his readership much as we might quote some article in 'Time Magazine' to make a point.

Yeah the first mention is spiritual body so..........

I think Jude quoted from the Book of Enoch because it was well known as well and I also think it was well known that Angels assumed human form. It's interesting that many myths concerning Greek gods involve them interacting, and interbreeding , with humans and this idea has slowly become more rejected as fantasy.

I agree that quoting from the Book of Enoch doesn't imply the entire Book is credible but it does fit well with the message in Gen 6 , 1 Peter 3, 2 Peter 4, and Jude.

Have you noticed how Paul quoted Greek poets ? ( random )

Not sure of your intended point. The OT was written in Hebrew, NT in Greek. Different languages, different words, same meaning.

Yeah true. My point is though that there's no need to insist that because Moses used "Sons of God" in Gen 6 that Jude would use the same term. Mind you if Jude quoted Moses we'd probably be debating if Jude was refering to Angels or men.

 

[C1oudwatch3r]

Also, in the NT, we can become sons of God, heirs and adopted sons as the result of our relationship with Christ. In the OT, I don't know of any such references calling Abe, Moses, David, Daniel or others , except Adam.

I agree. And I think Adam is called the Son of God because he was a direct creation of God, not begotten. The angels are direct creations. In the New Testament, we are called Sons of God when we accept Jesus because we become new creations in Him. (Jesus is not a direct creation...He has ALWAYS been the Son of God.) I'm not sure I'm entirely right about this direct creation concept, but ever since I came across this in my studies, the Old Testament has made more sense to me in how it relates to the New Testament, and in what Genesis 4 is talking about.

 

[calvin]

My first use of the word 'apple' was when I was given a piece of fruit to eat.
My second use of the word apple was to describe a computer wannabe.
Just because I ate the first apple, I'm in no hurry to eat the second one.

 

[Major]

Only twice....there you have a good example of the law of first mention.
As for the Book of Enoch, no even though it is quoted by Jude. Enoch did not write it , it had several authors and is classed as pseudepigraphical.
I believe Jude quoted from it because it was a writing well known to his readership much as we might quote some article in 'Time Magazine' to make a point.

Agreed calvin. Enoch is a very bad book. It is very close to Satanic.

 

[Major]

My first use of the word 'apple' was when I was given a piece of fruit to eat.
My second use of the word apple was to describe a computer wannabe.
Just because I ate the first apple, I'm in no hurry to eat the second one.

BUT......when you ate that first apple.......the second one did not exist then!

 

[Abdicate]

Agreed calvin. Enoch is a very bad book. It is very close to Satanic.

Then why does Jude and Peter quote it? (I'm not advocating it)

 

[agua]

Then why does Jude and Peter quote it? (I'm not advocating it)

I think Jude may have referenced Peter ( who referenced the Book of Enoch ) as well as the Book of Enoch directly concerning the Angels that sinned. I think this is interesting if we accept that the references come from passages in the Book of Enoch directly related to Angels fornicating. To me this either means Peter and Jude believed the accounts from the Book of Enoch concerning this topic ( and possibly it was common knowledge that Angels fornicated ) because they were true, or that they were deceived in believing the Book of Enoch accounts because they were false.

I don't see any other options imo.

Oh here's another option. Peter and Jude quote mined ignoring the context of the passages. We Chistians tend to do that at times

 

[calvin]

Would you consider a forth option. Perhaps they used commonly read literature to make a point. What was it they were pointing out or teaching?
Was it that there are a bunch of randy angels or were they teaching on other things?
Look at Peter.
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
<<snip>>
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
I believe the "For" ties what follows with what preceded.

I believe Jude was talking about these people::
. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
. Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
<<Snip>>
. Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.
"Yet in like manner" is drawing on the object lessons from those things that he has mentioned, but they are illustrative rather than detailed teachings in themselves.
"In like manner these people..." can that be taken that these people did exactly what the angels did? Were these people Jude is talking about breeding with predeluvial women? No of course not, so...why suppose the angels were doing so?
Take V5 for example, we know that he is referring to the spies sent out to checkout conditions and then came back to camp and told stories of giantism and scared the people into doubting the Lord's word. We learn these things from and 14.
So I think that it is wrong to take an illustrative mention as a statement of fact without corroborative evidence of veracity.
I don't think I'm articulating this as well as I would like, But I do believe that the book of Enoch could be used to illustrate something without endorsing the contents as being authoritative.

 

[agua]

Would you consider a forth option. Perhaps they used commonly read literature to make a point. What was it they were pointing out or teaching?
Was it that there are a bunch of randy angels or were they teaching on other things?
Look at Peter.
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
<<snip>>
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
I believe the "For" ties what follows with what preceded.

I believe Jude was talking about these people::
. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
. Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
<<Snip>>
. Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.
"Yet in like manner" is drawing on the object lessons from those things that he has mentioned, but they are illustrative rather than detailed teachings in themselves.
"In like manner these people..." can that be taken that these people did exactly what the angels did? Were these people Jude is talking about breeding with predeluvial women? No of course not, so...why suppose the angels were doing so?
Take V5 for example, we know that he is referring to the spies sent out to checkout conditions and then came back to camp and told stories of giantism and scared the people into doubting the Lord's word. We learn these things from and 14.
So I think that it is wrong to take an illustrative mention as a statement of fact without corroborative evidence of veracity.
I don't think I'm articulating this as well as I would like, But I do believe that the book of Enoch could be used to illustrate something without endorsing the contents as being authoritative.

I don't think I'm articulating this as well as I would like, But I do believe that the book of Enoch could be used to illustrate something without endorsing the contents as being authoritative.

Ah ok I hadn't considered this option and I'll need to chew on it a bit.

At first glance it seems a little unusual to me though because if I thought the contents of a Book held highly objectionable material and included in it was the message that Yahweh judged, and held under judgement in a "special" hell/place Angels who fornicated, I don't think I could use it to teach how Angels were held in a special hell/place for different reasons if you get my drift.

I like how you put together the argument separating the Angels from the sins mentioned but I find it difficult to accept that Peter and Jude would reference the Book of Enoch which explicitly details that Angels fornicated, when speaking about how both humans and Angels will be judged as per a list of sins that includes fornication, if Angels didn't fornicate.

It would be like me referencing Mein Kamph to teach how bigotry is wrong but not accepting Hitler's hatred of the Jew. imo. ( a bit of a stong analogy sure )

 

[calvin]

let me ask you this question.
Can you show me any example of where the Lord God created a male of a species and did not also provide/create a female compliment?

Adam, we are told was lonely and needed a companion.. I think it strange that this account/explanation is even in the Bible, until I realize that it is there to show that God is aware that the males He creates need female compliments...compliments of their own kind.

Angels....Hebrew has no neuter gender so referring to an angel as 'he/him' does not confer sexuality. The Greek also, Aggelos:- noun masculine.
So would the lord as He has revealed Himself to us theoughScripture create a race of well endowed beings with no compliment of their kind?

 

[Major]

Then why does Jude and Peter quote it? (I'm not advocating it)

Excellent question my bro.

As you are well aware of, Enoch was a important person mentioned in Genesis 5:24. Enoch was the 7th from Adam, the son of Jared (Gen. 5:18) and the father of Methuselah (5:21; Luke 3:37). After the birth of Methuselah at 65, he lived 300 more years. Gen 5:23-24 “So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.”

What then is the meaning of God taking him? Heb. 11:5 “By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

He was transported into heaven without dying. With Enoch was conveyed the teaching of both heaven and immortality.
The book of Enoch is non-Biblical and pseudepigraphical (what we have today is not written by Enoch).

The Book of Enoch:“Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.”

Jude he quotes from a prophecy of Enoch; Jude 1:14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.” Jude’s reference the Book of Enoch is not exact, which does seem to be contrary to the conclusion he quoted from the book of Enoch..

The concept of ten thousand saints is not unique. In Deut. 33:2 And he said: "The LORD came from Sinai, and dawned on them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran, and He came with ten thousands of saints; from His right hand came a fiery law for them.”

Jude was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21), we know that what he quoted from Enoch was true. This is confirmed by the fact that the same idea about the Lord returning with His holy ones to render judgment found elsewhere in the Bible, Zechariah 14:5, Isaiah 66:15, and Psalm 96:13, Deut. 33:2.

The apocryphal writing called "the Book of Enoch," contains a statement resembling Jude’s, but there is no proof it existed at the time of Jude.

 

[Major]

Would you consider a forth option. Perhaps they used commonly read literature to make a point. What was it they were pointing out or teaching?
Was it that there are a bunch of randy angels or were they teaching on other things?
Look at Peter.
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
<<snip>>
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
I believe the "For" ties what follows with what preceded.

I believe Jude was talking about these people::
. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
. Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
<<Snip>>
. Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.
"Yet in like manner" is drawing on the object lessons from those things that he has mentioned, but they are illustrative rather than detailed teachings in themselves.
"In like manner these people..." can that be taken that these people did exactly what the angels did? Were these people Jude is talking about breeding with predeluvial women? No of course not, so...why suppose the angels were doing so?
Take V5 for example, we know that he is referring to the spies sent out to checkout conditions and then came back to camp and told stories of giantism and scared the people into doubting the Lord's word. We learn these things from and 14.
So I think that it is wrong to take an illustrative mention as a statement of fact without corroborative evidence of veracity.
I don't think I'm articulating this as well as I would like, But I do believe that the book of Enoch could be used to illustrate something without endorsing the contents as being authoritative.

Consider Matthew 22:30.......
"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

That says to me that we when we have glorified bodies in heaven will be as the angels and be "A-sexual".

 

[Major]

Ah ok I hadn't considered this option and I'll need to chew on it a bit.

At first glance it seems a little unusual to me though because if I thought the contents of a Book held highly objectionable material and included in it was the message that Yahweh judged, and held under judgement in a "special" hell/place Angels who fornicated, I don't think I could use it to teach how Angels were held in a special hell/place for different reasons if you get my drift.

I like how you put together the argument separating the Angels from the sins mentioned but I find it difficult to accept that Peter and Jude would reference the Book of Enoch which explicitly details that Angels fornicated, when speaking about how both humans and Angels will be judged as per a list of sins that includes fornication, if Angels didn't fornicate.

It would be like me referencing Mein Kamph to teach how bigotry is wrong but not accepting Hitler's hatred of the Jew. imo. ( a bit of a stong analogy sure )

To a believer grounded in the Scriptures, the Book of Enoch is packed full of heresy and false teaching. I will give one such example:

Enoch 40:1-10.........
1 "And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saw a multitude 2 beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits. And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things.
3 And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory.
4 The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever.
5 And the second voice I heard blessing
6 the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits. And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits.
7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the Satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord
8 of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth. After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: ‘Who are these four presences which I have
9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

Now the TRUTH!!! The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. That is totally blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches.

We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, not some angel named Phanuel... "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Repentance is strictly between a man and Jesus Christ alone.

Only Jesus died for our sins, and shed His blood to pay for them (1st Peter 1:18-19); therefore, we must be diligent to guard and defend against LIARS and imposters who would lead people to believe otherwise. 1st John 2:22 clearly indicts all Christ-deniers as LIARS, guilty before God.

I only post this so that those reading our words but not making comments will know and understand that the Book of Enoch is NOT to be accepted.
It is clear that someone copied from the Bible and wrote this stuff. The same type of mumbo-jumbo can be readily observed in the Qur'an.

My point is that the Devil is working relentlessly to corrupt God's Word, as he has been doing since the Garden of Eden, when he caused Eve to doubt God's Word. Satan is so shrewd that he even tried to confuse our Lord by misinterpreting the Scriptures in Matthew 4:1-10. In these apostate times, the Word of God is under attack like never before. The reason why is simple... if Satan can pervert the Word of God into a lie, then he can control the masses!