At least you're honest.
sound doctrine
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I try to be.
Yep, took me years to understand how in one place it says Satan made David number his troops, in other book it says God did it. Sometimes it takes foundations of other things.
Resurrection and judgement day ..or day of the Lord. That's what we need to focus on. rapture is red herring.
Believers will be transfigured..that is the 'twinkling of the eye' thing.
Again..I say..search the scriptures, see these things are so..do not look in the Bible for things that aren't even there. When I was an unbeliever even then thought christian concept of rapture was ridiculous. I knew about the resurrection and feared judgement day though. It just sounded like an improbable thing the JWs were making up.
As in the days of Noah...
Preach the Word
…2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.…
2 Timothy 4:3
All we need to do is preach the gospel, and nothing but, not add extra things on top to whitewash or convince people into believing in heaven simply because they want to escape the world. Those that have ought to repent and go back and read their Bibles. But then it does say here that people will accumulate for themselves teachers...and I see people do that. They go I follow such and such..and name all these teachers who write a lot of nonsense like Left Behind books etc that are in the FICTION section of the library - myths. There are also other teachers who write books that support the doctrine espoused in these christian fantasy books. And then people quote them ad nauseum.
You only need the Word in the Bible, not what other people say about the Word.
Believers will be transfigured..that is the 'twinkling of the eye' thing.
Again..I say..search the scriptures, see these things are so..do not look in the Bible for things that aren't even there. When I was an unbeliever even then thought christian concept of rapture was ridiculous. I knew about the resurrection and feared judgement day though. It just sounded like an improbable thing the JWs were making up.
As in the days of Noah...
Preach the Word
…2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.…
2 Timothy 4:3
All we need to do is preach the gospel, and nothing but, not add extra things on top to whitewash or convince people into believing in heaven simply because they want to escape the world. Those that have ought to repent and go back and read their Bibles. But then it does say here that people will accumulate for themselves teachers...and I see people do that. They go I follow such and such..and name all these teachers who write a lot of nonsense like Left Behind books etc that are in the FICTION section of the library - myths. There are also other teachers who write books that support the doctrine espoused in these christian fantasy books. And then people quote them ad nauseum.
You only need the Word in the Bible, not what other people say about the Word.
I agree we need to preach the forgiveness of sins, the freedom from bondage to sin and the love of Christ for us, not preaching 'insurance policy'evangelism'
Do you believe in the Power of the Holy Spirit, the power to cast devils out in Jesus Name. The Power in us to lay hands on the sick that they may get well, the Lord confirming his Word with signs following?
That is absolutely true going all the way back to Genesis.
And sometimes it take more deeper study. Diamonds are always deep in the ground.
The taking of census is not a sin - but the REASON for doing it was. The book of Chronicles tells us that Satan, who was against Israel, moved or provoked King David to count his troops (1Chronicles 21:1).
Satan moved in spiritual warfare against the whole nation of Israel - not just the king. With his cunning ways the devil set out to entice David to sin by numbering his army - which David did!
2 Sam. 24:1..........
"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."
The above verse in the King James Version Bible tends to give a WRONG understanding to the reader.
The 1Chronicles 21:1 KJV verse quoted earlier and the below scripture quote from the Young's Literal Translation Bible (YLT) offers a more accurate explanation of what transpired.
2 Sam. 24:1...YLT says best..........
"And the anger of Jehovah addeth to burn against Israel, and an adversary [Satan] moveth David about them, saying, `Go, number Israel and Judah.' "
So it seems that it was SATAN that moved David to disobey God. David seems to have been prompted by a feeling of pride and ambitious curiosity. Because he did this to determine HIS power and to trust in it, it offended God. Of itself, taking a census is not unlawful.
Looking at the scriptures we can know that there is an evil intent by their content. Anytime Satan is involved you can be sure he intends to get someone to sin! He put the thought in David's mind that if he knew the number of young men under his rule (meaning those fit for war) he could brag or boast how great a king he was - by the size of his army!
Question: What do you think the passages are about in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54.
Can you give me what they mean to you and support that with Scriptures as a basis for truth?
The idea that the Rapture is a relatively new arrival is preposterous and lame.
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.
On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:
In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:
"Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
How can you lecture us on the Rapture when you can not get the facts right on when it was began to be taught by the church.
I use the KJV, but I always refer to the YLT. That is what happened.
David's heart was to number the troops, and through God's judgement and displeasure that gave the enemy a place to operate. Through God's judgement.
Satan did not do a thing, until He had a rightful place through the judgement of God.
I am not saying God sends the devil to kill us, but judgement gives place to the enemy.
So both scriptures are correct. David's heart was not right before God, and God stepped aside to allow the devil in. If God does not step aside, then Satan can't get in.
We are told not to give the devil a place.
Thank you for showing that in the YLT, I actually never looked at it in the YLT, but it does bring it out well.
Blessings.
Amen and The Shepherd of Hermas (1.4.2.) speaks of the pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.
You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.
Ok, Major and Abdicate. I will assume that you are simply unaware of the truth of the matter. I will illustrate the folly of placing trust in some other man, rather than performing due diligence via the available primary and secondary documentation.
A portion of this response you are about to read had been posted in another forum, since rendered unavailable by the admin here. And it dealt with two of the three quotations posted below. The relevant players are aware of who they are.
There are men laying in wait for you. And they have an entire theology, a system of dogma, waiting to snare the unsuspecting and lazy.
For a con to work effectively, those being conned must participate in the game. Alert, critical questioning audiences cannot be conned. The importance of all this is not merely the existence of liars in high places. Liars cannot succeed unless they find people willing to cooperate.
So for those who would complain about the length of this post, you are evidently not the truth seeker you would claim to be. Perhaps others are, and would benefit from knowing the truth about the oft-posted cut-and-paste “rebuttals” to the fact that the pre-trib “rapture” theory is a relatively new arrival.
Have YOU personally read the whole of Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, or Ephraem The Syrian's, or The Shepherd of Hermas’ works? What I'm suggesting is, if you present someone else's ideas from their web site, without doing the research yourself, without performing the Scripturally mandated due diligence, you are being used! -- effectively placing your fate in the hands of others..
"And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you" (II Peter 2:3). The "rapture" dogma is promoted by these greedy men in leadership positions protecting their sacred cow, BUT, they can't stand for close Scriptural scrutiny largely because their theory is NOT a stand-alone doctrine. A package of Scriptural falsehoods floats their boat; thus, they cannot afford to spring a leak anywhere, lest their rapture ve$$el become very soggy very quickly...
Thus, there is wholesale deception occurring on multiple fronts. In addition to the more mundane practice of plagiarism, the list of authors that utilize distortion and outright intellectual dishonesty in the presentation of their case is heavily populated by rapture campers. In this regard, an extremely common tactic is that of selective citations in a deceitful attempt to make a historical source appear to support the rapturist position, when in fact, it does not.
The fact is, the Rapture Camp is a previously tiny cultic group that spread their perspective so effectively that they have emerged as the dominant party in what is presently called evangelical Christianity. In the process, they quietly shed various early doctrinal arguments of extremely dubious value, revised the record concerning their original historical roots, and criminally covered up the actual source of the cultic system.
Many rapture writers have a nasty habit of quoting some early writer on the subject of prophecy, and then cutting off the quote just when the statement shows the writer was post-tribulationist. They then assert that the ancient authority believed in the pre-tribulation rapture!
The interesting thing about this practice is that virtually anyone can prove the rapture writers are intentional liars (not by slur, but by Scriptural definition) with just a bit of research. Thus, those that continue in error will be without excuse.
In an effort to suppress the truth about the pre-trib rapture theory's relatively new arrival, proponents endeavor to obscure the date of origin of the doctrine.
So let us begin with the first of your three citations.
In another quote, Irenaeus again places the church in the tribulation, as he quotes Revelation’s author John: “But he indicates the number of the name now [666] in order that when this man comes we may avoid him by being aware who he is.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.30).
In truth, we see that Irenaeus was “post-trib.”
And now we move to the second of three citations.
Let's proceed a little further into the Ephraem ether.
A supposedly early example of pre-tribulationalism is found in the writings of someone known as Pseudo-Ephraem. The term "Pseudo" means that scholars think the author was attempting to write in the style of another that would help his work to be well received -- or that the author was actually a fraud literally masquerading as another. In short, the work is a forgery. Such is the case with the writings known as Pseudo-Ephraem -- hardly an unimpeachable source for a radically new doctrine.
Thus, the one quote above, inaccurately attributed to "Ephraem the Syrian," is not only NOT a Pre-Trib rapture citation, it was not even written by Ephraem!
First, while Ephraem The Syrian was indeed a noteworthy 4th century figure, the quote cited above was not written by Ephraem. It comes from a document that is a known forgery that historians universally identify as Pseudo-Ephraem. Incredibly, someone conveniently forgot to mention that "minor" detail. Pseudo-Ephraem is placed somewhere between the 4th and the 7th centuries.
Second, a balanced reading of the entire text of Pseudo-Ephraem clearly shows the writer [whoever he was], as well as the real Ephraem, were actually both post-tribulationists! Because of other statements in the document that I will shortly cite, it becomes clear that the "...Christians are 'gathered' away from the wicked in earthly settings before the tribulation and then are 'taken' closer to the Lord when the tribulation intensifies." [quoted from MacPherson, The Rapture Plot, pages 270-271]
One of the world's leading scholars on Pseudo-Ephraem, a writer named Paul Alexander, shows how the phrasing had a non-rapture meaning to the Eastern Orthodox readers of Pseudo-Ephraem's period. Alexander writes that the phrase "taken to the Lord really means 'participate at least in some measure of beatitude.'" [quoted from Paul J. Alexander, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, page 210]. Professor Robert Gundry writes "To what might a being gathered and taken to the Lord that is going on right now refer? Answer: to being evangelistically gathered and taken to the Lord in Christian conversion... compare the American evangelical lingo of 'bringing people to Christ.'" [quoted from Robert Gundry, First the Antichrist: Why Christ Won't Come Before The Antichrist Does, Baker Books, page 176]
Furthermore, in Section 2, the author of Pseudo-Ephraem writes "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one..." [quoted from Pseudo-Ephraem, On The Last Times, The Antichrist, And The End Of The Word, Section 2]. This straightforward statement clearly contradicts a pre-trib understanding, for Pseudo-Ephraem obviously expects the Antichrist to be revealed before any rapture.
In Section 4 of Pseudo-Ephraem, concerning the tribulation period, we see "In those days people will not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic..." Apparently, Pseudo-Ephraem also sees Christians in the tribulation in this verse.
Section 10 of Pseudo-Ephraem describes Christ's return in conjunction with "...the angelic trumpet [that] precedes Him..." The passage then says this trumpet, which sounds indentical to Paul's last trump of I Cor 15:52 & Thes 4:16, "will sound and declare 'Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come!' Then Christ will come and the enemy will be thrown into confusion, and the Lord will destroy him by the spirit of his mouth..." This is a very clear description of the post-tribulational resurrection of the church in conjunction with the destruction of the Antichrist.
It's worth noting that in addition to Pseudo-Ephraem's plain statement that "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one" [quoted from Pseudo-Ephraem, Section 2], the Real Ephraem The Syrian wrote concerning his personal prophetic expectation that "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." [quoted from Ephraem The Syrian, Sermo-Asceticus 1].
The willingness of the source, from which Major quoted, to utilize a known forgery, which the source represents as equivalent to the genuine article, is yet another effort by the Rapture Camp at scraping the bottom of the barrel in attempts to prop up its unscriptural doctrine.
And finally, we move to the third citation.
Buyer beware.
A portion of this response you are about to read had been posted in another forum, since rendered unavailable by the admin here. And it dealt with two of the three quotations posted below. The relevant players are aware of who they are.
There are men laying in wait for you. And they have an entire theology, a system of dogma, waiting to snare the unsuspecting and lazy.
For a con to work effectively, those being conned must participate in the game. Alert, critical questioning audiences cannot be conned. The importance of all this is not merely the existence of liars in high places. Liars cannot succeed unless they find people willing to cooperate.
So for those who would complain about the length of this post, you are evidently not the truth seeker you would claim to be. Perhaps others are, and would benefit from knowing the truth about the oft-posted cut-and-paste “rebuttals” to the fact that the pre-trib “rapture” theory is a relatively new arrival.
Have YOU personally read the whole of Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, or Ephraem The Syrian's, or The Shepherd of Hermas’ works? What I'm suggesting is, if you present someone else's ideas from their web site, without doing the research yourself, without performing the Scripturally mandated due diligence, you are being used! -- effectively placing your fate in the hands of others..
"And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you" (II Peter 2:3). The "rapture" dogma is promoted by these greedy men in leadership positions protecting their sacred cow, BUT, they can't stand for close Scriptural scrutiny largely because their theory is NOT a stand-alone doctrine. A package of Scriptural falsehoods floats their boat; thus, they cannot afford to spring a leak anywhere, lest their rapture ve$$el become very soggy very quickly...
Thus, there is wholesale deception occurring on multiple fronts. In addition to the more mundane practice of plagiarism, the list of authors that utilize distortion and outright intellectual dishonesty in the presentation of their case is heavily populated by rapture campers. In this regard, an extremely common tactic is that of selective citations in a deceitful attempt to make a historical source appear to support the rapturist position, when in fact, it does not.
The fact is, the Rapture Camp is a previously tiny cultic group that spread their perspective so effectively that they have emerged as the dominant party in what is presently called evangelical Christianity. In the process, they quietly shed various early doctrinal arguments of extremely dubious value, revised the record concerning their original historical roots, and criminally covered up the actual source of the cultic system.
Many rapture writers have a nasty habit of quoting some early writer on the subject of prophecy, and then cutting off the quote just when the statement shows the writer was post-tribulationist. They then assert that the ancient authority believed in the pre-tribulation rapture!
The interesting thing about this practice is that virtually anyone can prove the rapture writers are intentional liars (not by slur, but by Scriptural definition) with just a bit of research. Thus, those that continue in error will be without excuse.
In an effort to suppress the truth about the pre-trib rapture theory's relatively new arrival, proponents endeavor to obscure the date of origin of the doctrine.
So let us begin with the first of your three citations.
Irenaeus is a close link to the disciples, for he was taught by Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. Concerning the 10 kings of the Apocalyptic period, Irenaeus wrote “And they will...give their kingdom to the Beast and put the church to flight.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.26.1).
In another quote, Irenaeus again places the church in the tribulation, as he quotes Revelation’s author John: “But he indicates the number of the name now [666] in order that when this man comes we may avoid him by being aware who he is.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.30).
In truth, we see that Irenaeus was “post-trib.”
And now we move to the second of three citations.
There are countless rapture writers who continue to pitch the now discredited theory that Ephraem The Syrian, a 4th century pastor, had written about the pre-tribulation rapture, 1,600 years ago. That short quote, posted by Major, is frequently read out of context, so it sounds like a genuine reference to pre-trib from the 4th century. As usual, the truth is decidedly different. Later, in the very same document, the author clearly states that Christ comes for his church after the tribulation. Predictably, that portion of the ancient writing is never posted. Not only that, but the document in question was not even written by Ephraem The Syrian! Students and scholars fluent in church history call this work Pseudo-Ephraem because it is believed to be a forgery from the 7th century, written by an unknown author who put Ephraem's name on it!
Let's proceed a little further into the Ephraem ether.
A supposedly early example of pre-tribulationalism is found in the writings of someone known as Pseudo-Ephraem. The term "Pseudo" means that scholars think the author was attempting to write in the style of another that would help his work to be well received -- or that the author was actually a fraud literally masquerading as another. In short, the work is a forgery. Such is the case with the writings known as Pseudo-Ephraem -- hardly an unimpeachable source for a radically new doctrine.
Thus, the one quote above, inaccurately attributed to "Ephraem the Syrian," is not only NOT a Pre-Trib rapture citation, it was not even written by Ephraem!
First, while Ephraem The Syrian was indeed a noteworthy 4th century figure, the quote cited above was not written by Ephraem. It comes from a document that is a known forgery that historians universally identify as Pseudo-Ephraem. Incredibly, someone conveniently forgot to mention that "minor" detail. Pseudo-Ephraem is placed somewhere between the 4th and the 7th centuries.
Second, a balanced reading of the entire text of Pseudo-Ephraem clearly shows the writer [whoever he was], as well as the real Ephraem, were actually both post-tribulationists! Because of other statements in the document that I will shortly cite, it becomes clear that the "...Christians are 'gathered' away from the wicked in earthly settings before the tribulation and then are 'taken' closer to the Lord when the tribulation intensifies." [quoted from MacPherson, The Rapture Plot, pages 270-271]
One of the world's leading scholars on Pseudo-Ephraem, a writer named Paul Alexander, shows how the phrasing had a non-rapture meaning to the Eastern Orthodox readers of Pseudo-Ephraem's period. Alexander writes that the phrase "taken to the Lord really means 'participate at least in some measure of beatitude.'" [quoted from Paul J. Alexander, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, page 210]. Professor Robert Gundry writes "To what might a being gathered and taken to the Lord that is going on right now refer? Answer: to being evangelistically gathered and taken to the Lord in Christian conversion... compare the American evangelical lingo of 'bringing people to Christ.'" [quoted from Robert Gundry, First the Antichrist: Why Christ Won't Come Before The Antichrist Does, Baker Books, page 176]
Furthermore, in Section 2, the author of Pseudo-Ephraem writes "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one..." [quoted from Pseudo-Ephraem, On The Last Times, The Antichrist, And The End Of The Word, Section 2]. This straightforward statement clearly contradicts a pre-trib understanding, for Pseudo-Ephraem obviously expects the Antichrist to be revealed before any rapture.
In Section 4 of Pseudo-Ephraem, concerning the tribulation period, we see "In those days people will not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic..." Apparently, Pseudo-Ephraem also sees Christians in the tribulation in this verse.
Section 10 of Pseudo-Ephraem describes Christ's return in conjunction with "...the angelic trumpet [that] precedes Him..." The passage then says this trumpet, which sounds indentical to Paul's last trump of I Cor 15:52 & Thes 4:16, "will sound and declare 'Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come!' Then Christ will come and the enemy will be thrown into confusion, and the Lord will destroy him by the spirit of his mouth..." This is a very clear description of the post-tribulational resurrection of the church in conjunction with the destruction of the Antichrist.
It's worth noting that in addition to Pseudo-Ephraem's plain statement that "...there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one" [quoted from Pseudo-Ephraem, Section 2], the Real Ephraem The Syrian wrote concerning his personal prophetic expectation that "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." [quoted from Ephraem The Syrian, Sermo-Asceticus 1].
The willingness of the source, from which Major quoted, to utilize a known forgery, which the source represents as equivalent to the genuine article, is yet another effort by the Rapture Camp at scraping the bottom of the barrel in attempts to prop up its unscriptural doctrine.
And finally, we move to the third citation.
Some have claimed that the pre-trib “rapture” was taught in 110 AD in a non-canonical book called The Shepherd of Hermas. However, a quick read of the full document clearly shows the writer held a post-tribulational perspective. Regarding the church in the tribulation, the Shepherd writes “...so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...” (Shepherd of Hermas, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Eerdmans, Volume 2, page 17-18). Basically, it doesn’t seem to matter what the original document said as the rapture camp simply distorts anyone they choose to suit their doctrinal assumption.
Regarding these dissimulations of the rapture camp, the reader now has the truth of the matter.
Buyer beware.
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We showed scripture and the comeback was "the early church fathers didn't believe" so we produced early Church Fathers and you dismiss them too. It really makes me wonder why you think God will pour out His wrath on His bride when throughout the scriptures He saves His faithful. You can't have it both ways. Read the scriptures we posted and we'll stick to the scriptures as we did at the beginning. A real lot of flip floppers you are...
Furthermore, you brought up a lie in which we proved the rapture, post, pre, or mid, wasn't created as you so stated in 1830. So stick with the scriptures then. Tell us what you call 1 Thess 4:17. Give it a name so we can talk about it since you're so afraid of the word "rapture".
Furthermore, you brought up a lie in which we proved the rapture, post, pre, or mid, wasn't created as you so stated in 1830. So stick with the scriptures then. Tell us what you call 1 Thess 4:17. Give it a name so we can talk about it since you're so afraid of the word "rapture".
You produced them to no profit; as documented, their own writings “dismiss” your attempt to produce an “early” pre-trib doctrine.
That’s a separate question from the one of yours that I already answered with documentation. If you want the discuss that separate question, then post it in a forthright manner, and then we can discuss it.
Ahhh, you’re making it personal, I see. Why resort to ad hominems when the facts don’t fit your theory?
BTW, the word “rapture” is a Catholic invention, spun from their corrupted Latin Vulgate.
You haven’t proven that “rapture” theory existed before “1830.” But we’re patient. Try again.
God already has; why change his word? It’s called “caught up together with them.” It’s when we meet the Lord in the air and escort him back to earth. Nothing more, nothing less. As I documented, there’s danger in extrapolating or inserting your own ideas or “summary” of what you think is occurring.
Believers don’t do the hackneyed “go to heaven” thing; rather, Christ sets up his kingdom here, with us. We, being "caught up" with others, meet the Lord in the air and then return back to earth with him.
For example, if your friends fly in from another country to visit you, you might travel to your local airport to meet them when their plane lands and then escort them back to your place. If they’re VIP friends, you might have a delegation meet them at your country's main airport, and then escort them back to your place. In either case, you don’t go to your airport, meet your friends, get on your friend’s plane, and then travel back with your friends to their place of origin!
So, do we have a scriptural witness to this scenario? Yes.
...we came the next day to Puteoli: Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome. And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. And when we came to Rome... -- Acts 28:13-16
The brothers in Rome got word of their impending visitors, and so went out to meet them at Appii forum, and then escorted them back to Rome.
meet = same word in both Acts 28 and 1 Thes. 4.
Here are all four usages of the word meet:
Mat. 25:1 - Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat. 25:6 - And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Acts 28:15 - And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
1 Thes. 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
All four are consistent with “meet and greet and return to base.“
So, we can clearly see the wicked presumption re: the fly-away-to-safety “pre-trib rapture” false doctrine. The pre-rib "rapture" theory proponents appropriate the "caught up " part of 1 Thes. 4:17 as sucker bait for their "rapture" heresy -- reason enough to avoid unscriptural terms when dealing with doctrines.
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Why do all these debates ignore the Lord and His truth.
s4C your argument posed in post # 36 is rather weak.
We (the Church) will meet with the Lord in the air. OK, but it must also be true that the Lord will meet with us in the air. The air, being home to neither of us, does not dictate where we will go after this as your argument suggests.
The air is a sort of mid point, a gathering point.
Put in the terns of your analogy, you fly from the USA to Honolulu, I fly from OZ to Honolulu, (buy a snazzy shirt
) we meet and together catch a flight to the UK.
I believe both camps need to simply ask what did Jesus teach? Never mind Paul or John, or any other, what did Jesus Himself teach? Were His words not clear enough?
Did He not have competence enough to teach reliably on the subject?
Consider;
Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."
Must this even mean that the one left will live for a long period to suffer terrible tribulation ?
It might mean and probably does, that one is taken to be with her Lord and the other is left to face the judgment of God.
Couple of thing to note here is that just previously Jesus tells us that just as the days of Noah....
The important thing here is the compactness. People went about their business until two things happened simultainiously.
1. The Noahs went into the Ark.
2. The flood came and cleansed the earth
We do not actually know how long it took for the flood to wipe out all human life, Oh sure we know how long the flood lasted, but not how long the human race lasted (outside of the Ark).
Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.
Mar 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
If the Church has been raptured at or before this point in time, how exactly will shortening the days of this great tribulation be for their 'sake'? How does the Church benefit if she is tucked safely away in God's hip pocket first?
And surely the Church is the elect, not just the 144k (as a distinct entity) from the rest of the saved as some will argue to further cloud the issue. Why didn't Jesus teach about a remnant that would exactly equal 144K?
s4C your argument posed in post # 36 is rather weak.
We (the Church) will meet with the Lord in the air. OK, but it must also be true that the Lord will meet with us in the air. The air, being home to neither of us, does not dictate where we will go after this as your argument suggests.
The air is a sort of mid point, a gathering point.
Put in the terns of your analogy, you fly from the USA to Honolulu, I fly from OZ to Honolulu, (buy a snazzy shirt
) we meet and together catch a flight to the UK.I believe both camps need to simply ask what did Jesus teach? Never mind Paul or John, or any other, what did Jesus Himself teach? Were His words not clear enough?
Did He not have competence enough to teach reliably on the subject?
Consider;
Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."
Must this even mean that the one left will live for a long period to suffer terrible tribulation ?
It might mean and probably does, that one is taken to be with her Lord and the other is left to face the judgment of God.
Couple of thing to note here is that just previously Jesus tells us that just as the days of Noah....
The important thing here is the compactness. People went about their business until two things happened simultainiously.
1. The Noahs went into the Ark.
2. The flood came and cleansed the earth
We do not actually know how long it took for the flood to wipe out all human life, Oh sure we know how long the flood lasted, but not how long the human race lasted (outside of the Ark).
Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.
Mar 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
If the Church has been raptured at or before this point in time, how exactly will shortening the days of this great tribulation be for their 'sake'? How does the Church benefit if she is tucked safely away in God's hip pocket first?
And surely the Church is the elect, not just the 144k (as a distinct entity) from the rest of the saved as some will argue to further cloud the issue. Why didn't Jesus teach about a remnant that would exactly equal 144K?
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Why do all these debates ignore the Lord and His truth.
s4C your argument posed in post # 36 is rather weak.
We (the Church) will meet with the Lord in the air. OK, but it must also be true that the Lord will meet with us in the air. The air, being home to neither of us, does not dictate where we will go after this as your argument suggests.
The air is a sort of mid point, a gathering point.
Put in the terns of your analogy, you fly from the USA to Honolulu, I fly from OZ to Honolulu, (buy a snazzy shirt
I believe both camps need to simply ask what did Jesus teach? Never mind Paul or John, or any other, what did Jesus Himself teach? Were His words not clear enough?
Did He not have competence enough to teach reliably on the subject?
Consider;
Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."
Must this even mean that the one left will live for a long period to suffer terrible tribulation ?
It might mean and probably does, that one is taken to be with her Lord and the other is left to face the judgment of God.
Couple of thing to note here is that just previously Jesus tells us that just as the days of Noah....
The important thing here is the compactness. People went about their business until two things happened simultainiously.
1. The Noahs went into the Ark.
2. The flood came and cleansed the earth
We do not actually know how long it took for the flood to wipe out all human life, Oh sure we know how long the flood lasted, but not how long the human race lasted (outside of the Ark).
Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.
Mar 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
If the Church has been raptured at or before this point in time, how exactly will shortening the days of this great tribulation be for their 'sake'? How does the Church benefit if she is tucked safely away in God's hip pocket first?
And surely the Church is the elect, not just the 144k (as a distinct entity) from the rest of the saved as some will argue to further cloud the issue. Why didn't Jesus teach about a remnant that would exactly equal 144K?
Yep, and it's an exact 7 year tribulation period. I can post the scriptures to prove it. A short and predetermined time God gives us when He will deal with the world that rejected him.
Calvin, pick a question, and we can examine it through the lens of scripture.
No snazzy shirts, pleeeeze.
No snazzy shirts, pleeeeze.
Yeah, I can quote scriptures too.
Test is to use good exegesis and not indulge in eisegisis.