sound doctrine

Jul 22, 2010
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Calvin, pick a question, and we can examine it through the lens of scripture.

No snazzy shirts, pleeeeze.
But I really like colourful Hawaiian shirts.(y)
OK, let's look at two are doing what ever, one is taken one is left.

Mat 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

In my view this whole dialogue is about being always ready for the Lord's return.
There is nothing here that suggests that those left will have to endure seven years of tribulation.

Luk 17:26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man.
Luk 17:27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building,
Luk 17:29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—
Luk 17:30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."

Again there is an immediacy about the coming judgment following the removal of the Church.
On the very day Lot left, destruction fell upon those cities.
On the very day the Noahs entered the Ark, the flooding commenced.
So, I see no justification here for a pre trb rapture/snatching/catching/whisking/spiriting away of the Church.
 

By Faith

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Whats it mean no justification of some pre-tribe snatching away thing when it looks like in your post you give the idea that the Chruch is not here for the wrath of God?

Church removed, Judgement comes. That is what I read.
 
Jul 22, 2010
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Whats it mean no justification of some pre-tribe snatching away thing when it looks like in your post you give the idea that the Chruch is not here for the wrath of God?

Church removed, Judgement comes. That is what I read.
Well then if you are reading what I'm posting, you will be reading Church removed, then the remainder faces judgment. No seven years of wrath while they procrastinate, no opportunity to repent, they've made their beds now they will have to lie in them, now they face eternal judgment. There will have been plenty of tribulation stuff already but these people refused to repent. They reap what they have sown.
Don't like the idea that the Church will have to go through tribulation?
John 16:33. I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."
We can't pick and choose. How bad will the tribulation be? Pray that it will not overtake you in winter or on a Sabbath.
 
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Scriptures:

2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV)
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

John 14:1-3 (KJV)
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 (KJV)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.​

Where's the comfort knowing 2/3 of the earth will be destroyed?

Revelation 8:7 (KJV)
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.​

It's gotta get real ugly if ALL green grass is burnt up - and this is just one of MANY judgements of wrath.

Isaiah 13:12 (KJV)
I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.​

Seeing all this mass destruction and we're not appointed (to set, place, put) to partake in God's wrath, then this makes sense.:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (KJV)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​
 
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Jul 22, 2010
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Scriptures:

2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV)
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

John 14:1-3 (KJV)
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.​
Can't see that this speaks to anything rapture/ snatching up wise. What Jesus does indicate is that what He has told the disciples is very comprehensive.(if it were not so I would have told you) One could infer that if there was any extra detail when He taught about His return, He would have told the disciples.....but He didn't, perhaps because there was no extra detail.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 (KJV)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
don't confuse wrath with tribulation. Jesus has already said that His followers would have tribulation...He never said we would suffer wrath.​
Where's the comfort knowing 2/3 of the earth will be destroyed?
Only 2/3? I read that the whole earth would be destroyed
Revelation 8:7 (KJV)
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.​

It's gotta get real ugly if ALL green grass is burnt up - and this is just one of MANY judgements of wrath.
It will be very rough on cattle. If the weeds in my lawn are anything to go by, the grass will need mowing within a week.:)
Isaiah 13:12 (KJV)
I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.​
sounds prety gruesome. Just as well the Lord has promised to shorten that time for our sakes.:)(y)
Seeing all this mass destruction and we're not appointed (to set, place, put) to partake in God's wrath, then this makes sense.:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (KJV)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​
Help me out here..... as far as I can see that passage says nothing about seven years of tribulation following the Lord's return.
But why not read on?
1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
Notice that in V3, Paul speaks of sudden destruction coming upon those that remain. No seven years of wrathful tribulation. Last time I looked it up, sudden meant quickly without any preamble an so on.
I think it is also noteworthy that Paul says of those who remain, that they will not escape. Sounds like there is no seven year cooling off period wherein any can repent.
Remember also that the original autographs did not have verse numbers or chapter divisions. so ch5 v1 follows smoothly on from ch4 v18 i.e. not a new subject but a natural follow on.
 
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By Faith

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Well then if you are reading what I'm posting, you will be reading Church removed, then the remainder faces judgment. No seven years of wrath while they procrastinate, no opportunity to repent, they've made their beds now they will have to lie in them, now they face eternal judgment. There will have been plenty of tribulation stuff already but these people refused to repent. They reap what they have sown.
Don't like the idea that the Church will have to go through tribulation?
John 16:33. I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."
We can't pick and choose. How bad will the tribulation be? Pray that it will not overtake you in winter or on a Sabbath.
Ah, I see.............. Jesus said we will have tribulation in this World.......... The Tribulation to come is not from this World. God trashes the planet.

There is a seven year period. Things have to occur during those short years.
 
Jul 22, 2010
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Ah, I see.............. Jesus said we will have tribulation in this World.......... The Tribulation to come is not from this World. God trashes the planet.

There is a seven year period. Things have to occur during those short years.
Yes, true things will have to happen.
But you are not, nor can you find a scripture that says that this seven years of tribulation are in fact wrathful judgment, or that this (whatever it is),follows the removal of the Church.
Tribulation is tribulation, doesn't matter if it is man made or God appointed.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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But I really like colourful Hawaiian shirts.(y)
OK, let's look at two are doing what ever, one is taken one is left.

Mat 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

In my view this whole dialogue is about being always ready for the Lord's return.
There is nothing here that suggests that those left will have to endure seven years of tribulation.

Luk 17:26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man.
Luk 17:27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building,
Luk 17:29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—
Luk 17:30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.
Luk 17:35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left."

Again there is an immediacy about the coming judgment following the removal of the Church.
On the very day Lot left, destruction fell upon those cities.
On the very day the Noahs entered the Ark, the flooding commenced.
So, I see no justification here for a pre trb rapture/snatching/catching/whisking/spiriting away of the Church.
Agreed calvin. In Matthew 24 The observation that the people of Noah's day KNEW NOT the severity and suddenness of the coming destruction tells us that this last generation Jesus is talking about will be just as unprepared for the COMING OF THE SON OF MAN to judge the world.

The passage in Luke 17 says the same thing......suddenness! The comparison is that men then went right on doing what they always did without any thought for God. The return of Christ will come upon the world in the same way.

This is why the Rapture fits in so perfectly with these Scriptures. The Rapture will have taken place 7 years prior to these Scriptures so that the Church will not be here to herald the coming of Christ because WE WILL KNOW WHAT IS ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE if we were still here!!!!
We (Church of believers) would have seen the 7 year peace treaty, the invasion of Russia into Israel, the A/C declaring himself to be God. We would KNOW what is going on and would be yelling from the roof tops.

That fact then removes the unexpected coming of Christ. The Scriptures say that NO ONE know the time of Jesus's Second Coming, only the Father. HOWEVER.......if the church is still here and there is NO Rapture.......WE WILL KNOW WHAT IS ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE!!!!
 
Jul 22, 2010
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<<Snip>>

This is why the Rapture fits in so perfectly with these Scriptures. The Rapture will have taken place 7 years prior to these Scriptures so that the Church will not be here to herald the coming of Christ because WE WILL KNOW WHAT IS ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE if we were still here!!!!
We (Church of believers) would have seen the 7 year peace treaty, the invasion of Russia into Israel, the A/C declaring himself to be God. We would KNOW what is going on and would be yelling from the roof tops.
Sorry Major, in my opinion that does not necessarily follow. We know from experience and we know from Jesus' ministry that even in the face of divine healing and mastery of the elements, those going to damnation will not turn and live. We still won't know the time exactly, so the scripture will not be broken. But even having a pretty good idea, and proclaiming the Lord's imminent return, people will just scoff at the idea. As Peter foretold:
2Pe 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2Pe 3:2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
Look in particular at verses 11 and 12. The saints are still there awaiting the coming of the Lord, they were not taken out of the picture seven years prior to the day of the Lord.
That fact then removes the unexpected coming of Christ. The Scriptures say that NO ONE know the time of Jesus's Second Coming, only the Father. HOWEVER.......if the church is still here and there is NO Rapture.......WE WILL KNOW WHAT IS ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE!!!!
No we will have a fair idea of the nearness of His return, but we are supposed to be living with the earnest expectation that He could come anytime, even as I type this...even as you read this.
Look closely at verses 3 & 4 above. Why would anyone say ""Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." .
Unless someone (the Church) is there warning them of the nearness of His return?
If the Church was there 'shouting from the roof tops', the scoffers would be there shouting their denials, but not otherwise, there would be no point.
This all points to the Church being here right up until the last moment before the wrath of God is poured out in judgment of an ungodly unrepentant world.
Also look closely at verse 8. we often cite this verse for the past as it were, but look at it in the light of what we are discussing. We might find ourselves in a position to point out the A/C and several other precursors to the Lord's return, but Peter is telling you and me to remember that one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day. We still can not ever consider that the scripture is broken no matter what is happening on the word stage.
 
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By Faith

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Yes, true things will have to happen.
But you are not, nor can you find a scripture that says that this seven years of tribulation are in fact wrathful judgment, or that this (whatever it is),follows the removal of the Church.
Tribulation is tribulation, doesn't matter if it is man made or God appointed.
Your close. We suffer tribulation for the gospel and living gody in Christ. We have to actually be around to suffer tribulation at the end.

We are not here for God's Wrath. The first Angel sounding off is goingn to burn this whole planet. Just by mercy it's mixed with blood and hail, but the planet will still loose 1/3 of all it's tree's.

The end is not just about the Church escaping wrath though.

When Jesus came to the earth with the power of the rule of God (Kingdom of God) Satan lost his authoritive position in Heaven.

Revelation 12 was a vision of the past.

Rev 12:4-10 kjva 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Luk 10:18-19 kjva 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

What is bound in earth, is also bound in heaven. The realm of the spirit effect this natural realm. When the Saviour came, Satan lost his place in Heaven and authority was given to one man over him, and transfered to all those that believe in him. His body.

Satan's last push with his man Son of perdition, the Antichrist will take hold of this chaos and gain power and authority through lying signs and wonders. The World will look to him, and in 3 1/2 years will set himself up in Israel calling himself god. The 144,000 will stay here through some of the Angels who sound off but be taken up (Rev 14)

In order for these things to happen, the mystery of iniquity will have to stop working.
 
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Can't see that this speaks to anything rapture/ snatching up wise. What Jesus does indicate is that what He has told the disciples is very comprehensive.(if it were not so I would have told you) One could infer that if there was any extra detail when He taught about His return, He would have told the disciples.....but He didn't, perhaps because there was no extra detail. don't confuse wrath with tribulation. Jesus has already said that His followers would have tribulation...He never said we would suffer wrath.​
Only 2/3? I read that the whole earth would be destroyed It will be very rough on cattle. If the weeds in my lawn are anything to go by, the grass will need mowing within a week.:)
sounds prety gruesome. Just as well the Lord has promised to shorten that time for our sakes.:)(y)

Help me out here..... as far as I can see that passage says nothing about seven years of tribulation following the Lord's return.
But why not read on?
1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
Notice that in V3, Paul speaks of sudden destruction coming upon those that remain. No seven years of wrathful tribulation. Last time I looked it up, sudden meant quickly without any preamble an so on.
I think it is also noteworthy that Paul says of those who remain, that they will not escape. Sounds like there is no seven year cooling off period wherein any can repent.
Remember also that the original autographs did not have verse numbers or chapter divisions. so ch5 v1 follows smoothly on from ch4 v18 i.e. not a new subject but a natural follow on.
Stay on topic eh? We are the bride of Christ - the reason for the first verse. I'm done with this topic. Ya'll believe whatever you want. I can't cut and paste everything because as it is most lazy people don't read what is put before them and their own dogma prevents people like you to stay on topic. I'm moving on.
 
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The title of this thread is "sound doctrine".
From a read of the opening post, it would appear that the 'sound doctrine' in mind has to do with the placement of the gathering of the saints within the time framework of the culminating events of the end of this age.
In my view anybody trying to prosecute 'sound doctrine', should not be targeted for personal attack, or finger pointing.
We should all endeavour to play nice and respect one another's perspective and insights.
We should be free to question, we should be free to reason, and we should be free to disagree yet remain on friendly terms.
Can we continue?
 

By Faith

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The title of this thread is "sound doctrine".
From a read of the opening post, it would appear that the 'sound doctrine' in mind has to do with the placement of the gathering of the saints within the time framework of the culminating events of the end of this age.
In my view anybody trying to prosecute 'sound doctrine', should not be targeted for personal attack, or finger pointing.
We should all endeavour to play nice and respect one another's perspective and insights.
We should be free to question, we should be free to reason, and we should be free to disagree yet remain on friendly terms.
Can we continue?
It could be possible sound doctrine has nothing to do with End time Events. Just saying.
 
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Sorry Major, in my opinion that does not necessarily follow. We know from experience and we know from Jesus' ministry that even in the face of divine healing and mastery of the elements, those going to damnation will not turn and live. We still won't know the time exactly, so the scripture will not be broken. But even having a pretty good idea, and proclaiming the Lord's imminent return, people will just scoff at the idea. As Peter foretold:
2Pe 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2Pe 3:2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
Look in particular at verses 11 and 12. The saints are still there awaiting the coming of the Lord, they were not taken out of the picture seven years prior to the day of the Lord.

No we will have a fair idea of the nearness of His return, but we are supposed to be living with the earnest expectation that He could come anytime, even as I type this...even as you read this.
Look closely at verses 3 & 4 above. Why would anyone say ""Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." .
Unless someone (the Church) is there warning them of the nearness of His return?
If the Church was there 'shouting from the roof tops', the scoffers would be there shouting their denials, but not otherwise, there would be no point.
This all points to the Church being here right up until the last moment before the wrath of God is poured out in judgment of an ungodly unrepentant world.
Also look closely at verse 8. we often cite this verse for the past as it were, but look at it in the light of what we are discussing. We might find ourselves in a position to point out the A/C and several other precursors to the Lord's return, but Peter is telling you and me to remember that one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day. We still can not ever consider that the scripture is broken no matter what is happening on the word stage.
No problem calvin. We can not always agree on everything.

Titus 2:13.......
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
As Bible-believing Christians, we have a present hope in the Lord's return.

John 14:1-3 to come back and get us, to take us to a “PLACE” He is preparing for us in eternity. . .
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
While it is true that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture position cannot be "proven"; however, it is implied by the structure of Old Test. prophecy especially Daniel, the Revelation, and the nature of Tribulation prophecy, and is supported by many scriptures. It is a consistent viewpoint which harmonizes many Bible passages for me personally and allows for all the Scriptures to fit together perfectly.
 
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Yes, true things will have to happen.
But you are not, nor can you find a scripture that says that this seven years of tribulation are in fact wrathful judgment, or that this (whatever it is),follows the removal of the Church.
Tribulation is tribulation, doesn't matter if it is man made or God appointed.
Calvin, our Lord Jesus Christ taught that He might come back at any time, suddenly, imminently, without any notice or signs. The most important characteristic of Christ's return is that it could happen without warning, suddenly, catching us off guard if we're not faithfully serving our Master...

Mark 13:32-37........
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
The Lord told us TO WATCH, because He might come back at any time, suddenly. I see no wa that the Rapture could happen in the middle of or after the Tribulation. That would remove the SUDDEN, IMMINATE return where no one knows of His return.
It seems to me that the following passage of Scripture proves the Pretribulation return of Christ...
Matthew 24:42-44.......
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
 
Sep 3, 2009
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The title of this thread is "sound doctrine".
From a read of the opening post, it would appear that the 'sound doctrine' in mind has to do with the placement of the gathering of the saints within the time framework of the culminating events of the end of this age.
In my view anybody trying to prosecute 'sound doctrine', should not be targeted for personal attack, or finger pointing.
We should all endeavour to play nice and respect one another's perspective and insights.
We should be free to question, we should be free to reason, and we should be free to disagree yet remain on friendly terms.
Can we continue?
I sure hope so calvin. I agree with your thought.

The problem with people has always been that when they can not respond with knowlege and respect they resort to something personal so as to bully others into submission. I have seen that take place my whole life and it continues to be the case.
 
Jul 14, 2014
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Stay on topic eh? We are the bride of Christ - the reason for the first verse. I'm done with this topic. Ya'll believe whatever you want. I can't cut and paste everything because as it is most lazy people don't read what is put before them and their own dogma prevents people like you to stay on topic. I'm moving on.
I don't want to quarrel - I am simply trying to sort this out for myself.... Please bear with me on this....

So.. I do believe there will be a rapture... What I am starting to question is who will go and who will stay?

See - in Jesus parables - the Wise virgins are "Snatched away" by the bridegroom.... That was a part of the traditional Jewish wedding.... and they go on to be "The Brides".... Ok, got it.

No where do I see the Servants being snatched away or being removed.....

So, here's what I am trying to sort out.....
We Christians are hardly "Virgins".... We have no covenant separation from the world... in fact - it's the opposite, we are called to be IN the world.... We ALSO came to Christ out of the world "Having known others" - that also kinda seems to break down the idiom of "The Virgin" as well....

What I am seeing is that by and large - our faith falls much closer to the biblical "Servant" idiom....
Servants are generally out IN the world doing the Master's bidding.
Servants ARE expected to be "World wise"
Servants are not typically characterized by Purity and Separation.....
Servants are not characterized by their sex, national origin, position BEFORE their servanthood, or status....
Servants do not receive reward IN the world - they are servants....
Servants are sent to do the master's bidding - even if that results in the servant's death...

So... What happens if there IS a rapture - but we don't get to go because we have a job to do here? Interestingly - in Jesus sayings and parables - the Servants were the only ones who did NOT go to any of the wedding things but DID receive a reward for their faithfulness....

For example - think of Jesus last words to Peter and John in the book of John - John 21:20-23
John 21:21-22 "Peter, seeing him (John) said to Jesus "Lord, and what shall this man do?" Jesus said unto him "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? Be following me."

It's interesting that ONE is commanded to "Be following me" and the other is commanded "Tarry till I come"... Does this mean that John was NOT a servant of Jesus? No.....

Am I going to build any doctrine on this? Nope... and I can tell you - if I am invited to go, I am GOING! But I have been thinking a lot about it lately....

Thanks