sound doctrine

[Major]

I have decided that there is a differentiation between "Salvation" - which is absolutely free through Unmerited Gift (Grace) alone and we cannot do anything to "Earn" one bit of it and so many of the "Inheritances" that can be earned, taken up, or lost..... Revelation 2 and 3 detail MANY of these with the promises made to each of the churches..... Paul, Peter, and James also go into this quite a bit.

For example - Revelation 3:11 to the Church of Philadelphia: "Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown." This implies that there was a way that YOU could fail to take this crown - an inheritance above and beyond salvation....

And on the same subject of crowns... James 1:12 - "Blessed in the man who endures temptation (trials), for when he has been approved, he will receive the Crown of Life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."

2nd Timothy 2:12 implies the same...

Note that these crowns mentioned have contingencies attached to them.... Enduring persecution/trials/temptation/suffering.... where Salvation does not.

Another one...
Revelation 3:12 - "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God...." - So, this is something special available ONLY to those who are overcoming.... Does this imply that the one who is NOT overcoming will NOT receive Salvation and eternal life? Absolutely not - salvation is ONLY contingent upon Faith.

What I have been thinking about is whether "The Rapture" also classifies as one of these special things only available to a certain group - "The Wise Virgins" - the ones who have maintained covenant separation, purity, and have met all the required "Preparations" and "Specifications" set forth for such in the Scripture...

Like I said - I am in no means ready to make any doctrine out of it... but it's something to think about....

Thanks

May I say to you that the focus of Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church in the world.

From Rev. chapter 1 to chapter 4 the church is mentioned 19 times. Then from chapter 4 to #20 it is not mentioned at all. The normal reaction from people I know is....................
"Where is the Church in this time frame"??????

It is NOT in the world anymore because it has been removed from the world.

As for "Crowns". They are what we can lay hold of while hear on the earth AFTER we have come to Christ. They have nothing to do with being saved whatsoever but because we are saved we will out of love want to do things for Christ.

I believe that there are 5 Crowns available to all believers.
1 - CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS— LOVED THE LORD'S APPEARING - 2 Tim 4:82 -
2 - INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN— DISCIPLINED BODIES / SELF-CONTROL - 1 Cor 9:25-273 -
3 - CROWN OF LIFE— ENDURED PATIENTLY THRU TRIALS - James 1:12, Rev 2:104 -
4 - CROWN OF GLORY— GODLY LEADERS - EXAMPLES TO FLOCK - 1 Pet 5:2-45 -
5 -CROWN OF REJOICING— SOUL WINNERS CROWN - 1 Thess 2:19, Dan 12:3 - See more (at: http://so4j.com/five-crowns-rewards-in-heaven#sthash.O8HNo98X.dpuf)

What happens to these crown would be a good question.

Revelation 19:12.......gives us an indication:
"His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many "CROWNS" and He had a name written that no man knew but He Himself".

 

[JohnC]

From Rev. chapter 1 to chapter 4 the church is mentioned 19 times. Then from chapter 4 to #20 it is not mentioned at all. The normal reaction from people I know is....................
"Where is the Church in this time frame"??????

It is NOT in the world anymore because it has been removed from the world.

That is certainly one possibility... Like I said - I am nowhere close to working this out to my own satisfaction....

Here's the thing... If you concede the possibility that there could potentially be multiple "Right" answers all at once - then the wrangling around the rapture because of various "Contradictory" scripture scenarios basically goes away.... (Well, I am not really that naive enough to think the arguing would actually go away - but at least, it would get us back to allowing the Scripture to simply stand on it's own)

Here's another possibility... "The Ecclesia" - the Gentile Assembly of The Faithful Christians - no longer exists as such (Thus no more reference after Revelation 4)... "The Wise Virgins" (whoever they are) are Raptured... "The Faithful Servants" are dispersed/persecuted/killed... and there's a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth that destroys "The Assembly" and drives the rest either towards "The Harlot" who promises great and beautiful things OR towards the faithful remnant of The Children of Israel (Micah 5:3).... I notice that the judgement of The Harlot doesn't happen until Revelation 17-19.... but there's this phrase in Revelation 18:13 - "Come out of her my people...." So, there ARE still "My People" around, and there is a danger of them accepting the teaching of The Harlot and sharing in HER destruction....

Thanks

 

[calvin]

May I say to you that the focus of Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church in the world.

From Rev. chapter 1 to chapter 4 the church is mentioned 19 times. Then from chapter 4 to #20 it is not mentioned at all. The normal reaction from people I know is....................
"Where is the Church in this time frame"??????

It is NOT in the world anymore because it has been removed from the world.

IF.....if the 144000 sealed in Rev ch7 are representative of the completeness of the number of saints, then the Church on Earth is mentioned, briefly at least. Ch 7 also speaks of of the Church in relation to the great tribulation:
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?"
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.

V14 certainly says that these saints are coming out of the great tribulation and that is impossible unless they first have been in it.
I think v16 gives us a glimpse of at least some of what is happening during the great tribulation....famine, drought, the sun shining seven times brighter than normal( Isa 30:26. )and an almost unbearable scorching heat.

 

[JohnC]

IF.....if the 144000 sealed in Rev ch7 are representative of the completeness of the number of saints, then the Church on Earth is mentioned, briefly at least

Those 144,000 have specific Jewish tribal identities that are known to them and are clearly called out in the scriptures.... They are also declared to be "Firstfruits" - which has a very specific Levitical definition and procedure.. You have 2 choices for your firstborn Male child - you turn them in to the Temple to be dedicated to The Lord's work or you offer a sacrifice to "Redeem" them.. These 144,000 have been turned in for Temple service. You can read about an example of the dedication of Firstfruits to temple service in the beginning of 1st Samuel...

This is something else altogether going on here that we as Gentiles typically don't get.....
This marks the beginning of the formal commission by God to the Jewish Temple to Officially proclaim Jesus Name and Gospel... The Jewish Temple Authority will take up their rightful place of Administering His Gospel to the world... It's what the Pagan Roman appointed temple leadership in 33 AD could never do... but it's also why there can't be a gentile Church trying to do the same and claim the same authority....

Thanks

 

[Abdicate]

I have decided that there is a differentiation between "Salvation" - which is absolutely free through Unmerited Gift (Grace) alone and we cannot do anything to "Earn" one bit of it and so many of the "Inheritances" that can be earned, taken up, or lost..... Revelation 2 and 3 detail MANY of these with the promises made to each of the churches..... Paul, Peter, and James also go into this quite a bit.

For example - Revelation 3:11 to the Church of Philadelphia: "Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown." This implies that there was a way that YOU could fail to take this crown - an inheritance above and beyond salvation....

And on the same subject of crowns... James 1:12 - "Blessed in the man who endures temptation (trials), for when he has been approved, he will receive the Crown of Life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."

2nd Timothy 2:12 implies the same...

Note that these crowns mentioned have contingencies attached to them.... Enduring persecution/trials/temptation/suffering.... where Salvation does not.

Another one...
Revelation 3:12 - "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God...." - So, this is something special available ONLY to those who are overcoming.... Does this imply that the one who is NOT overcoming will NOT receive Salvation and eternal life? Absolutely not - salvation is ONLY contingent upon Faith.

What I have been thinking about is whether "The Rapture" also classifies as one of these special things only available to a certain group - "The Wise Virgins" - the ones who have maintained covenant separation, purity, and have met all the required "Preparations" and "Specifications" set forth for such in the Scripture...

Like I said - I am in no means ready to make any doctrine out of it... but it's something to think about....

Thanks

You can be adopted, but that doesn't mean you have an automatic perfect relationship. It requires us to be obedient to the Father. If you want to do whatever you want sin-wise, then are you truly His? Some people's garments will smell of smoke, 1 Cor 3:15. To be worldly minded is hostile towards God and cannot please Him, Rom 8:6-8.

 

[calvin]

Those 144,000 have specific Jewish tribal identities that are known to them and are clearly called out in the scriptures.... They are also declared to be "Firstfruits" - which has a very specific Levitical definition and procedure.. You have 2 choices for your firstborn Male child - you turn them in to the Temple to be dedicated to The Lord's work or you offer a sacrifice to "Redeem" them.. These 144,000 have been turned in for Temple service. You can read about an example of the dedication of Firstfruits to temple service in the beginning of 1st Samuel...

This is something else altogether going on here that we as Gentiles typically don't get.....
This marks the beginning of the formal commission by God to the Jewish Temple to Officially proclaim Jesus Name and Gospel... The Jewish Temple Authority will take up their rightful place of Administering His Gospel to the world... It's what the Pagan Roman appointed temple leadership in 33 AD could never do... but it's also why there can't be a gentile Church trying to do the same and claim the same authority....

Thanks

Be I right or be I wrong, I covered this 144,000 thing in post #73.
The only thing I would amplify or enlarge upon in that post is that ch14 has a different point of vantage than ch 7.

But as Paul said there is neither Jew nor Greek (gentile?)
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

So, I strongly question this idea of a latter day restoration of Judaistic priestly ministry. I'm seeing in the following passage a satisfaction with the Church that is being built on faith in Christ. I am not seeing anything tempory or makeshift about it in Jesus' words here.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Since the gates of hell do not prevail, it is safe to understand that the Church will evangelize all Israel, gathering in as many grapes as will be right for harvest.

Rev 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
These are not necessarily Israelites only, they are members of the Church.
When Paul spoke of us, Gentiles being grafted in to the vine, we are then grafted into any one of the twelve tribes. There exists no Scripture that shows ( contrary to Paul's teaching ), there are two (or more) bodies of Christ. There exists no gentile body and a separate Israelite body., there is only the one body of Christ.

Food for thought.....
Rev_2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.'

Will this new name also include the name of the tribe into which that person has been grafted? Maybe, maybe not, but there remains the wealth of Scripture that points away from two + bodies of Christ, but does point to there being only one body.

 

[calvin]

It could be that we will be grafted into the tribe of Benjamin, but I'll leave the reasoning to those interested to sleuth the reasoning.

 

[By Faith]

Hmmmmm. Do you then think we can just make it up as we go along? Just asking.

Make it up as we go? It seems to be the case.

 

[By Faith]

I don't want to quarrel - I am simply trying to sort this out for myself.... Please bear with me on this....

So.. I do believe there will be a rapture... What I am starting to question is who will go and who will stay?

See - in Jesus parables - the Wise virgins are "Snatched away" by the bridegroom.... That was a part of the traditional Jewish wedding.... and they go on to be "The Brides".... Ok, got it.

No where do I see the Servants being snatched away or being removed.....

So, here's what I am trying to sort out.....
We Christians are hardly "Virgins".... We have no covenant separation from the world... in fact - it's the opposite, we are called to be IN the world.... We ALSO came to Christ out of the world "Having known others" - that also kinda seems to break down the idiom of "The Virgin" as well....

What I am seeing is that by and large - our faith falls much closer to the biblical "Servant" idiom....
Servants are generally out IN the world doing the Master's bidding.
Servants ARE expected to be "World wise"
Servants are not typically characterized by Purity and Separation.....
Servants are not characterized by their sex, national origin, position BEFORE their servanthood, or status....
Servants do not receive reward IN the world - they are servants....
Servants are sent to do the master's bidding - even if that results in the servant's death...

So... What happens if there IS a rapture - but we don't get to go because we have a job to do here? Interestingly - in Jesus sayings and parables - the Servants were the only ones who did NOT go to any of the wedding things but DID receive a reward for their faithfulness....

For example - think of Jesus last words to Peter and John in the book of John - John 21:20-23
John 21:21-22 "Peter, seeing him (John) said to Jesus "Lord, and what shall this man do?" Jesus said unto him "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? Be following me."

It's interesting that ONE is commanded to "Be following me" and the other is commanded "Tarry till I come"... Does this mean that John was NOT a servant of Jesus? No.....

Am I going to build any doctrine on this? Nope... and I can tell you - if I am invited to go, I am GOING! But I have been thinking a lot about it lately....

Thanks

If you want the scriptures I am partly quoting, please let me know. A bit tired to copy and paste the all.

There is no Job for you to do here. If you understand anything about the Power and mighty anointing we as believers can have on our life, God can't even leave you here.

First, we have been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the Kingdom of His dear son.

There is no satanic power that can be over us. Jesus said on this Rock (Him) He will build His church and the gates of hell shall not prevail.

Satan gets once last failed attempt to bring his power into the Earth, unhindered as he had once been before Jesus came and defeated death and Hell, taking the keys from him.

In Order for Satan to do what He can do in Revelation like send fire down as he did in the OT, we can't be here.

Jesus said I give you power over evil spirits (Serpents and scorpians) and nothing by any means can hurt us. Jesus meant that, it's just a fact. Even Paul said God is faithful to deliver us from wicked and mean men. God is faithful. I have seen it over and over even in impossible situations where God has delivered those that believe and trust in Him. Satan can't touch us through men, He can't touch us personally.

Jude said if we keep ourselves the wicked one can't touch us.

Now I have seen folks in fear and unbelief get themselves Killed. But any fear is following the devil anyway.

Paul said the mystery of iniquity does now work, and will work until "HE" be taken out of the way.

The "HE" is not the Holy Spirit. The "HE" is Jesus himself. When Jesus comes for the gathering of the Church, He removes his body off the planet.

His body is the only thing here giving light. Without us, the World goes dark and not one will have any authority over Satan. No prayers, No anointing, no right thinking. We are the light of the World, and without light, it gets very evil and dark.

Where sin abounds, grace abounds much more and overtakes it. It's through the body from the Head this grace is magnified throughout the planet.

Once that body is removed that is Holding back sin all hell breaks loose. Satan now has full control.

God can't have Spirit filled believers down here messing things up, because despite it being the end, we still have promises God would never break to us.

Those who are left here, are found unfaithful in what God called them to do. They are doing their own thing, even worse, they are doing evil things. They are not ready and don't live each day as if Jesus is coming any second.

Satan has a rough time here the way it is. His own people have to endure God trashing the plaent. In the end Satan gets scattered so much, that the Lord has to bring them back together for the final battle.

In REV, people are not cursing Satan for all the horrible things He is doing. Scripture says they curse God, and repent not. I think it's in two place.

Satan is not that big a deal in the end. His last epic failure before getting thrown in the pit.

We don't need to be here for all that. The World choose what they wanted, and why we have to stay in the plan of God. If every believer would obey God and be as one body............. It would be amazing how many "Saved" healed and set free.

 

[Major]

IF.....if the 144000 sealed in Rev ch7 are representative of the completeness of the number of saints, then the Church on Earth is mentioned, briefly at least. Ch 7 also speaks of of the Church in relation to the great tribulation:
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?"
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.

V14 certainly says that these saints are coming out of the great tribulation and that is impossible unless they first have been in it.
I think v16 gives us a glimpse of at least some of what is happening during the great tribulation....famine, drought, the sun shining seven times brighter than normal( Isa 30:26. )and an almost unbearable scorching heat.

I hear you and see your point. However, when you say...................
"IF.....if the 144000 sealed in Rev ch7 are representative of the completeness of the number of saints, then the Church on Earth is mentioned, briefly at least."

That is IMO a real large assumption that I can not make and can not agree with. I see no way that they can be included in the church as they are separate from the elders in vsss. 11-13. Now according to verse 14...it would just be, IMO impossible for John not to recognize them as the Church. The elder then identifies them as redeemed ones, "they which came out of the great tribulation".

I am of the opinion that they are humans who have been because of the work of the 144k Jewish men. Thes saved people will be those who have never heard the gospel......missed the Rapture and live through the hell of the Tribulation and go on to re-populate the earth during the 1000 year rule of Christ.

Verse 4 of chapter 7 tells us that this group is....."All the tribes of the children of Israel." That alone rules them out of being the church as that body in never called Israel in the Scriptures even in 6:16 where the issue is legalizers over against real believers in Israel who are the elect remnant in the church (Rom. 11:5).

 

[Major]

That is certainly one possibility... Like I said - I am nowhere close to working this out to my own satisfaction....

Here's the thing... If you concede the possibility that there could potentially be multiple "Right" answers all at once - then the wrangling around the rapture because of various "Contradictory" scripture scenarios basically goes away.... (Well, I am not really that naive enough to think the arguing would actually go away - but at least, it would get us back to allowing the Scripture to simply stand on it's own)

Here's another possibility... "The Ecclesia" - the Gentile Assembly of The Faithful Christians - no longer exists as such (Thus no more reference after Revelation 4)... "The Wise Virgins" (whoever they are) are Raptured... "The Faithful Servants" are dispersed/persecuted/killed... and there's a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth that destroys "The Assembly" and drives the rest either towards "The Harlot" who promises great and beautiful things OR towards the faithful remnant of The Children of Israel (Micah 5:3).... I notice that the judgement of The Harlot doesn't happen until Revelation 17-19.... but there's this phrase in Revelation 18:13 - "Come out of her my people...." So, there ARE still "My People" around, and there is a danger of them accepting the teaching of The Harlot and sharing in HER destruction....

Thanks

Yes John....there will be God's people around. BUT they will not be the Church. You see, the Church is the Bride of Christ who is destined to be on display in the City of God over Jerusalem for all eternity. He IMO will never allow His bride to be put through the hell of the tribulation period.

The people of God that you see Him call to in chapter 18 are those Jews and people who come to Christ and do not take the mark of the beast. They are not the church as they will have had to keep the commandments of God and refuse the Mark until Armageddon.
The church today is based on one thing..........GRACE! We are saved by believing upon Christ and nothing else whatsoever.
That changes the second after the Rapture.

2 Thessolonians 2:8-12 is very clear about those who reject the gospel and miss the Rapture.................
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed,(A/C) whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

That means IF a person has heard and rejected the Lord Jesus Christ today, and the Rapture takes place tomorrow, he can not be saved. I don't make it up.......I just read it and pass it one. Please, do some work on this and read several Bible scholars and confirm my comments. I would recommend Dr. Oliver B. Green....Dr. J. Vernon Magee....Dr. Edward Hinson...Dr. John Pentacost
just to name a few who teach this interpretation.

Always nice to speak with you John.

 

[JohnC]

The church today is based on one thing..........GRACE! We are saved by believing upon Christ and nothing else whatsoever.
That changes the second after the Rapture.

Let's agree here that we do not have perfect clarity.... and so when we talk about this sort of thing, we must agree that at best - it's (educated) conjecture....

God's program has always been about Grace - the unmerited gift that we do not deserve... From Adam it has always been about Grace.... Even with The Law - the law did NOT make you either Holy or Righteous, neither did the blood of bulls and goats actually "Atone"... Keeping that in mind - I doubt that the program will change 100% away from Grace....

Let's face it... Even after The Rapture - how could you possibly EARN your way into Heaven? What can you possibly bring in your hand that will earn God's favor?

Now... Is something else going to happen - something that Satan has cooked up as an attack on Man in an attempt to invalidate Jesus status towards them as a "Kinsman Redeemer" and thus a position a very large number of people to no longer be qualified to be "Redeemed" by The Blood? I wouldn't doubt it one bit....

Thanks

 

[Major]

Let's agree here that we do not have perfect clarity.... and so when we talk about this sort of thing, we must agree that at best - it's (educated) conjecture....

God's program has always been about Grace - the unmerited gift that we do not deserve... From Adam it has always been about Grace.... Even with The Law - the law did NOT make you either Holy or Righteous, neither did the blood of bulls and goats actually "Atone"... Keeping that in mind - I doubt that the program will change 100% away from Grace....

Let's face it... Even after The Rapture - how could you possibly EARN your way into Heaven? What can you possibly bring in your hand that will earn God's favor?

Now... Is something else going to happen - something that Satan has cooked up as an attack on Man in an attempt to invalidate Jesus status towards them as a "Kinsman Redeemer" and thus a position a very large number of people to no longer be qualified to be "Redeemed" by The Blood? I wouldn't doubt it one bit....

Thanks

I agree. Prophecy can actually be very dangerous. The fact is......only time will tell. One thing is for sure, we can all be wrong.

In speaking with calvin I thought that what is even more breathtaking is the fact that nobody that is saved after the Rapture can have the honor of being in the Bride of Christ. The Bride of Christ is the highest honor available to the saints. If everyone saved is a part of the Bride, then the whole idea of rewards falls on its face.

When James and John's mother asked Jesus for her sons to sit on His right hand and His left hand, His answer was revealing. He said, in Matthew 20:21-23............
"And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom." "And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father."

May I say this NOT to YOU personally John or anyone else but just my opinion on what I see today. This comment has absolutely nothing to do with you and it will not surprise me one bit if a lot of people disagree with my opinion. What I am seeing is that the religious world is full of people who love almost any doctrine over the literal truth of God's Word. They want their ears tickled, so they can be a "Christian" and still do as they please. We have a generation of religious people that are Biblically apostate. Their systems of doctrines are more precious than the beautiful and pure Word of God. They cannot hear because their system has built a wall around their minds and therefore the truth of God's Word evades them continually.

 

[Major]

Let's agree here that we do not have perfect clarity.... and so when we talk about this sort of thing, we must agree that at best - it's (educated) conjecture....

God's program has always been about Grace - the unmerited gift that we do not deserve... From Adam it has always been about Grace.... Even with The Law - the law did NOT make you either Holy or Righteous, neither did the blood of bulls and goats actually "Atone"... Keeping that in mind - I doubt that the program will change 100% away from Grace....

Let's face it... Even after The Rapture - how could you possibly EARN your way into Heaven? What can you possibly bring in your hand that will earn God's favor?

Now... Is something else going to happen - something that Satan has cooked up as an attack on Man in an attempt to invalidate Jesus status towards them as a "Kinsman Redeemer" and thus a position a very large number of people to no longer be qualified to be "Redeemed" by The Blood? I wouldn't doubt it one bit....

Thanks

You asked........
"Let's face it... Even after The Rapture - how could you possibly EARN your way into Heaven? What can you possibly bring in your hand that will earn God's favor?"

1. Come to Christ in faith.
Romans 10:17......"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved . "

2. Keep the commandments of God
Revelation 14:12......"Here is the patience of the saints:
here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith
of Jesus."

3. Refuse the Mark of the Beast.
Revelation 14:9........... "And the third angel followed them,
saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his
image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of
God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his
indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the
Lamb:
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for
EVER AND EVER: and they have no rest day nor night, who
worship the best and his image, and whosoever receiveth the
mark of his name."

 

[Abdicate]

Just my 2 cents: the 144,000 male virgin Jews become believers after the church is removed and are not part of the bride, just like John isn't part of the bride, John 3:29, and those before him. Get the oil while you can...

 

[By Faith]

Just my 2 cents: the 144,000 male virgin Jews become believers after the church is removed and are not part of the bride, just like John isn't part of the bride, John 3:29, and those before him. Get the oil while you can...

I know they are suppose to carry the Word out and testify of Jesus. I know they get taken up before the heavy stuff hits the fan, but do make it through the monsters coming out of the smoking pit.

They may not be "Believers" and having the seal and things God can get across to them all about Jesus.

I wonder if they had known about Jesus before and that qualified them, or like Paul, knew the law like the back of his hand, and converted in one day.
Some think Paul took a few years after to get revelation.

Could this group be getting prepared now? Something I always thought about.

 

[JohnC]

3. Refuse the Mark of the Beast.

Which you take on your right hand or forehead.....

You know, I often wondered what the whole bit about "If your right eye causes you to sin - pluck it out, and if your right hand causes you to sin - cast it off, for it is better to enter heaven maimed than to be cast into hell whole" was all about...

Could there be a possibility that Jesus already prophesied a remedy for The Mark of The Beast?

Once again - just something to think about.....

 

[By Faith]

Which you take on your right hand or forehead.....

You know, I often wondered what the whole bit about "If your right eye causes you to sin - pluck it out, and if your right hand causes you to sin - cast it off, for it is better to enter heaven maimed than to be cast into hell whole" was all about...

Could there be a possibility that Jesus already prophesied a remedy for The Mark of The Beast?

Once again - just something to think about.....

TAking the Mark is a heart condition. chopping off your head is not going to change the heart condition. The Mark means nothing, it's the heart that takes the Mark. Those found with the Mark are going to be assumed to want to keep the Mark. Taking the Mark is not unforgivable, as there is no scripture stating that.

Jesus was telling us about the chopping off the arm in comparrison to the seriousness of Sin.
It's not the Arm though, its the eye, and if the eye be single the body is full of light. It was just a comparasion Jesus was making about sin. The arm was not the issue, it's just a tool of a good or bad heart.

 

[calvin]

Just my 2 cents: the 144,000 male virgin Jews become believers after the church is removed and are not part of the bride, just like John isn't part of the bride, John 3:29, and those before him. Get the oil while you can...

Do you think it would have made sense if John had described himself at the bride?
I believe the focus is on Jesus and John's joy that Jesus has come....nothing more in it than that.

 

[calvin]

I hear you and see your point. However, when you say...................
"IF.....if the 144000 sealed in Rev ch7 are representative of the completeness of the number of saints, then the Church on Earth is mentioned, briefly at least."

That is IMO a real large assumption that I can not make and can not agree with. I see no way that they can be included in the church as they are separate from the elders in vsss. 11-13. Now according to verse 14...it would just be, IMO impossible for John not to recognize them as the Church. The elder then identifies them as redeemed ones, "they which came out of the great tribulation".

I am of the opinion that they are humans who have been because of the work of the 144k Jewish men. Thes saved people will be those who have never heard the gospel......missed the Rapture and live through the hell of the Tribulation and go on to re-populate the earth during the 1000 year rule of Christ.

Verse 4 of chapter 7 tells us that this group is....."All the tribes of the children of Israel." That alone rules them out of being the church as that body in never called Israel in the Scriptures even in 6:16 where the issue is legalizers over against real believers in Israel who are the elect remnant in the church (Rom. 11:5).

Well actually Major, the Church is referred to as Israel.
Eph 2:11,12,13.
So, were were once alienated from Israel, but now we are not.
and again,
Act 2:17. Note that this is addressed to Israel, yet it refers to 'your sons and daughters' and we know that this promise fell also on Gentiles. Therefor Gentiles are included in the roster of sons and daughters of Israel.

There is obviously no distinction between peoples here..no Jews only, no Gentiles only, just one people.: a new creation.
Gal 6:15,16.

and again:
Rom 11:25 ,26
It seems clear enough that Paul is saying the Gentile Christians will complete the roster of Israel. (the Israel of God)
Again there is only one body.
and again
Gal_3:29 .
and again,
Isa 44:3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.
Isa 44:4 They shall spring up among the grass like willows by flowing streams.
Isa 44:5 This one will say, 'I am the LORD's,' another will call on the name of Jacob, and another will write on his hand, 'The LORD's,' and name himself by the name of Israel."
There is plenty of evidence that we are Israel.IMO.