I shoulda said growing olive tree.
sound doctrine
- Thread starter Lanolin
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But wouldn't you agree that the 144K are responsible to Rom. 3:23 as is everyone else. So then when Armageddon is over as the children of God stand before Him, they will all have glorified bodies and the sin curse will have been removed by the Lord Jesus which effects ALL Scripture..
I agree with that. My thinking is that the grafting in of the Gentles did not remove national Israel as n entity that God will deal with during the Tribulation to bring them to Christ.
I would, if I understood that ch 14 has an earthly perspective.
V1, Mount Zion is mostly referred to as being apart from this earth, both in OT and NT
V2 doesn't mean that because the voice heard comes from heaven, the 144,000 are not also there.
V4 is using past tense '..........have been redeemed......' Its a done deal.
Certainly before their redemption they were subject to Rom 3:23, but not after, else from what are they redeemed?
Ahh but there it is my brother. To be "a done deal" and be redeemed, they would have to be accountable to Romans 3:23.
In 14:1 ALL the people mentioned have appeared before us earlier in chapter 7 so I do agree.
The LAMB is of course Christ. The 144K have the Father's name written IN their foreheads.
The Father needs no further explanation as these 144K are without question those of chapter 7. They are God's witnesses during the Tribulation and were sealed mad marked out for God. Mount Zion IMO is the Literal city of David which is entirely consistent with the Godly remnant for Israel.
Then in verses 2 & 3 the scene change to HEAVEN. There is a voice of MANY WATERS, GREAT THUNDER AND HARPS. Who can that be???????
By simple elimination it is clear to me that they are not the four living creatures, neither are they the elders nor the 144K "who need to learn the son"!!!! The singing is done before the three named groups. IMO they are the first fruits of the coming Kingdom age who kept themselves from the idolatry brought on by the beast and false prophet.
Hmm just jumping in here.
I hope everyone is reading their Bible and not arguing over preconceived and man made doctrines.
Major what you say is correct according to the Bible, gentiles are grafted in to Israel, Israel has first consisted of the remnant of Jewish believers and then Gentiles were grafted in to the olive tree. Jesus is after all the Root of Jesse. When the times of Gentiles has come to an end..that is the gospel preached to all nations..the end will come. I suppose this can be interpreted two ways, meaning all the tribes of Israel or all the tribes and tongues of every nation on earth. That is why Jesus hasnt returned yet, and we are still here living in a fallen world.
As the twelve tribes have been scattered amongst all nations only God knows where and who they are. I would say looking at the world today and the Jewish people being ingathered into the nation of Israel or at least their original homeland that..God wants them there for a reason.
That Israel is somehow replaced by the church is not true..God has never forsaken his people. Otherwise why would they still be reading the Old Testament, why are we still reading it? Why does every promise in the New Testament relate back to the Old. Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfil it.
You cannot read the Bible completely ignoring the Old Testament. The passage in Romans relates directly to this.
I hope everyone is reading their Bible and not arguing over preconceived and man made doctrines.
Major what you say is correct according to the Bible, gentiles are grafted in to Israel, Israel has first consisted of the remnant of Jewish believers and then Gentiles were grafted in to the olive tree. Jesus is after all the Root of Jesse. When the times of Gentiles has come to an end..that is the gospel preached to all nations..the end will come. I suppose this can be interpreted two ways, meaning all the tribes of Israel or all the tribes and tongues of every nation on earth. That is why Jesus hasnt returned yet, and we are still here living in a fallen world.
As the twelve tribes have been scattered amongst all nations only God knows where and who they are. I would say looking at the world today and the Jewish people being ingathered into the nation of Israel or at least their original homeland that..God wants them there for a reason.
That Israel is somehow replaced by the church is not true..God has never forsaken his people. Otherwise why would they still be reading the Old Testament, why are we still reading it? Why does every promise in the New Testament relate back to the Old. Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fulfil it.
You cannot read the Bible completely ignoring the Old Testament. The passage in Romans relates directly to this.
Did not Jesus promise that when the Holy Spirit shall come ,HE will lead us into all truth?
How is it then there is so much confusion and denial of the truth when it is preached or taught?
Why then do people throw rocks defending their theological 'school' to the death rather than contending for "THE faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints"
Is God dead?
are those who say they have true life dead as well in truth?
Or is it that while they may be indeed BEGOTTEN again of God they rely too much upon their own understanding and think that despite the fact "that man by wisdom knew not God"
He can then by the same 'wisdom' know the scriptures as they should be known or understood.
Subjecting the scriptures to mans intellect and mind.Rather than subject the mind to be ruled by the Spirit of truth.
If there is strife if there is contention then it is nothing but the flesh and the carnal man or worse the natural man .
The rapture its purpose and time as in season is important.
For what is called the rapture is the translation of the Bride of Christ .
That is never preached or much taught in the church today .
Yet the scriptures say that "the Bride has got herself ready"
and Jesus said "be ye also ready"
So if you really want a better understanding of the rapture then get first a better understanding of the Bride of Christ and all the rest will fall into place in its right order.
in Christ
gerald
You are so very correct my brother.
The doctrine of Grace was not taught or accepted until Luther in 1520.....but it was in the Bible all the time!!!!
The Rapture has become popular and accepted in 1850 but it was in the Bible all the time!!!!
The great flaw in both modern theology and for a very long time is the idea that to be BORNagain is the be all and end all of our salvation.
That predominantly the only things ever taught in the church is what Pauls says is the milk of the word as listed in Hebrews.
The gospel of Jesus Christ reduced to being BORNagain for peace sake .
and the meat as to the Bride of Christ as too contentious .
In Christ
gerald
Not disputed.
But it is not the rapture that is the main thing .But the Bride of Christ .
In Christ
gerald
well, babies do need to grow up sometime.
I think..ppl confuse justification with sanctification. And then born again with resurrection. and then throw in rapture just to confuse everything.
When baby in the womb..we are not born yet. We still growing. The whole earth groans yearning to give birth to the new creation. Jesus was not truly 'born again' until he had died and was resurrected. But the promise, the holy spirit was in him when he was on earth.
It is funny how some people use a lot of christian jargon and it then starts meaning different things. Just let the Holy Spirit teach you on what you need to know. I think he does sometimes operate on a need to know basis. If too much meat given too early those babies gonna reject it. But its not through any church this time whether it's Luther with a bone to pick or Calvin making a system of theology or some girl in scotland who has visions and spreads doctrine. Paul warned about this..don't say you are of Paul or Apollos or anyone else. All you have to do is pray and READ the Word.
I think..ppl confuse justification with sanctification. And then born again with resurrection. and then throw in rapture just to confuse everything.
When baby in the womb..we are not born yet. We still growing. The whole earth groans yearning to give birth to the new creation. Jesus was not truly 'born again' until he had died and was resurrected. But the promise, the holy spirit was in him when he was on earth.
It is funny how some people use a lot of christian jargon and it then starts meaning different things. Just let the Holy Spirit teach you on what you need to know. I think he does sometimes operate on a need to know basis. If too much meat given too early those babies gonna reject it. But its not through any church this time whether it's Luther with a bone to pick or Calvin making a system of theology or some girl in scotland who has visions and spreads doctrine. Paul warned about this..don't say you are of Paul or Apollos or anyone else. All you have to do is pray and READ the Word.
The church cannot be perfected without those ordained ministers of God as listed in Ephesians .
The trouble is that there are a lot of ordained by man ministers .But not so many it would seem ordained by God.
Nevertheless we have this confidence that God knows who are His.
in Christ
gerald
Well it is very confusing because when you go to a church you dont always know. Theres all these different theological schools and bible colleges and denominations. Thats why its important to have your Bible on you when you attend any church so you can check what the Word says. Dont just blindly accept any teaching, esp if its 'new'. Dont hold to man maade traditions. And also read for yourself in your quiet time and write those words on your heart so you always have it with you.
We not only have the Body of truth which is the scriptures.
We also have the Spirit of truth which if we are his He has come to abide with us forever .
and while we may not know the truth on some matter when it is preached or taught as it is in Christ then the Spirit of truth will also bear witness to it either by the Word we know or by a check like the reins of a horse .
and we may not know straight away why it is wrong but we can know if it is and then seek God as to the why it is by the Word and he will lead us to understanding as well.
But if it is the truth then he will bare witness to it as well either by the word that we know or by an amen in our spirits and the word following as we seek understanding.
For not only must the preacher be anointed the hearers must also be .
in Christ
gerald
Yes there is a check in our spirit. Listen to that still small voice. Otherwise we will be swayed by every wind of doctrine.
Galatians were bewitched...
If we are bereans and search the scriptures daily to see these things are so...asking God as we search these scriptures as well then, God will always provide us with his plumb line. I guess the bottom line is, whom do we have faith in, not what.
Only in the Lord Jesus Christ, Gods only begotten son who was crucified and resurrected and His life in us.
Galatians were bewitched...
If we are bereans and search the scriptures daily to see these things are so...asking God as we search these scriptures as well then, God will always provide us with his plumb line. I guess the bottom line is, whom do we have faith in, not what.
Only in the Lord Jesus Christ, Gods only begotten son who was crucified and resurrected and His life in us.
Exactly! That is why lone rangers who reject or find it unnecessary to fellowship with the saints and get planted in a church in submission to God's government, end up running here and there, never coming into the truth and always being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. Ephesians Chapter 4:11-16. This is what the Word says and I believe the Word to be the final authority on all matters. God's government was put into place for the perfecting of the saints and for the work of ministry.