The Poor in Spirit

[bobinfaith]

Thanks, Bob, and the glory is the Lord's. Amen.
I seek to do more than mere words. I want to share the Gospel effectively, and to help build others up in their stature in Christ Jesus. Many times I've wished I could open my chest so others could see the raging storm of my passion within me for serving Christ and others, but we're in a cold, hard world that sees itself as loving, tolerant and compassionate. I realize there's nothing new about that. The world has always hated Christ, but that doesn't make it any easier to face it. I pray the Lord to give us boldness to plod forward in this valley of death, hatred and sin, working with our all to bear good fruit that is pleasing to Him. It hurts so bad when thinking about the suffering of those in the Church where they are persecuted so badly, but in suffering and weakness is His power made perfect, as it is written. Nothing will ever change that.
MM

Hello MM;

Wow! I was just having this conversation with two of my brothers during lunch today. It would have been nice if you could've joined us. Maybe someday, eh?

I know we write which is what we do in a Christian forum, but I can also feel your heart, open chest and continue to pray with you that the Lord give us the boldness to share even when the Truth hurts without "mere words and sugar coating."

It took me years to accept when others, even Christians reject His Word but have learned to "plant that seed" so to speak, and move on to the next person God leads me.

I feel you and I can agree, it seems this is a never ending commission, but when one more person "grasps the message" we are sharing then it's worth our all in all to the Lord.

God bless you, MM, and your family.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hello MM;

Wow! I was just having this conversation with two of my brothers during lunch today. It would have been nice if you could've joined us. Maybe someday, eh?

I know we write which is what we do in a Christian forum, but I can also feel your heart, open chest and continue to pray with you that the Lord give us the boldness to share even when the Truth hurts without "mere words and sugar coating."

It took me years to accept when others, even Christians reject His Word but have learned to "plant that seed" so to speak, and move on to the next person God leads me.

I feel you and I can agree, it seems this is a never ending commission, but when one more person "grasps the message" we are sharing then it's worth our all in all to the Lord.

God bless you, MM, and your family.

Bob, may the Lord bless you and yours, my brother. I so wish I could have been with you and the two brothers. That would have been such a blessing. Yes, if not in this life, then the one to come...

MM

 

[RDJ]

I love it that the Lord does as He so pleases, using whomsoever He so chooses for His purposes.

How He does it all, we can only marvel.

When He does it, we only wait upon Him in total reliance.

Where He does it, we wait upon Him to get us there according to His Will.

Why He does it...that's where we must seek Him for His Thoughts and His Ways, even though they are above ours as the heavens are above the earth.

How magnificent are His Ways, and that is what we rely upon for Him to open up for His body the means to serve Him on this earth.

Inspiration...yes. When it comes to His word to us, He does indeed direct all things by the Power of His Might.

Glory to the Lord for all that He does.

MM

Amen

 

[Major]

Ok..i think you missed my pointand im not sure i get yours right now.I dont agree with changing the words of the bible..I interpret as its written because I believe the translators were inspired.they had to be right?If not can we really call our bibles the word of God?

Agreed. To change the words of the Bible is in effect to place ourselves on the same level with God. That is very dangereous.

 

[Major]

Folks, as a caveat to my Post #34, I also will say that those great men who were the translators for the KJV did not know what was to come far beyond their lifetimes, with transliterations that promote Eastern Mysticism, such as The Mirror Bible, with all its resident horrors and corruptions. The KJV translators were men who greatly desired purity in translation, improving only in the sense of common language and word usage of their modern time.

MM

Amen!

And the fact that the KJV is still so widely owned and read is a testimony to their work!

 

[Musicmaster]

Ok..i think you missed my pointand im not sure i get yours right now.I dont agree with changing the words of the bible..I interpret as its written because I believe the translators were inspired.they had to be right?If not can we really call our bibles the word of God?

Changing words to conform to current word usage and cultural understanding isn't changing the word of God, per se. They didn't make changes to the Greek or the Hebrew. They only changed vernaculars in accordance with the current understanding of word usage. Perhaps it's the Lord who inspired that various editions of even the KJV.

So, my question to you is: How do you know if it's right or wrong what they did when it comes to translations?

When it comes down to it, it's quite frequently that I delve into the Hebrew and the Greek to find out which definition of many words applies to the context and grammatical construct of those word's usage in various passages.

In other words, I don't always trust what I think a word may actually mean, because the same word can have different meanings to different people.

In other words, no translation is perfect because of our individualistic mindsets about word usages.

Example, if you say, "I'm tired," I would have no absolute idea about your meaning because it could apply to your being physically tired, mentally tired, weary of recurring situtation(s), tired of your dog hiking his leg on your pant legs while you watch the football game at the exclusion of letting it outside to do it business... If there is context, even then we can apply our own personal misunderstanding, therefore the necessity for me to delve into the inspired languages to see what the Author actually inspired, because in those languages are gender distinctives, one of which can be neuter, which has it's own resulting meaning in which definition applies to the grammatical and spelling with jots and tittles. It all has implact upon overall meaning.

So, I therefore am not opposed to editional changes that focus upon keeping the meaning of key words in phraseology consistent with current vernaculars as best they can. That can help to keep the false teachers out there who teach such things as the trinity actually being nine personages, with the three main personages in the base trinity actually being triune themselves...3X3=9. I saw and heard a charlatan teaching that just this morning through a Youtube video. No matter what, clowns out there will always and forever use the language of scripture against itself and against the Lord's own meaning. That's the weakness of translations.

MM

 

[RDJ]

Yes, RDJ;

"The Spirit of God who widens" is a fundamental Biblical principle taken seriously by every disciple student of the Word. When we cross reference the Greek and Hebrew, is not what "a translator" has interpreted, but again what God reveals.

Hello, Musicmaster;

Well said! I love how you articulate how God's Hand is in everything, as He reveals His glory including our study of the Word as also being in the mix.

God bless you, brothers and your families.

I dont mean to be the hater in the room ...

---

προς τα εμπρός...can you tell me what God reveals this Greek word to be without a translator?we read our bibles..we decide a certain word needs to be cross referenced..we get the meaning of that word without knowing the context or the nuance of that verse in Greek or even the chapter for that matter.Either read greek or read english.

Why are we searching for the deeper meaning in another language we dont understand..are we not doing the job the Holy Spirit was sent here to do..maybe the Holy Spirit needs our help.

Beware of the devil and his devices.I know a 100 different english versions,lexicons etc seem like they helpful but from my experience they breed confusion.

Does anyone in hear believe there is a inspired english version of God's Word?I do..I dont dare look anywhere else.

Changing words to conform to current word usage and cultural understanding isn't changing the word of God, per se. They didn't make changes to the Greek or the Hebrew. They only changed vernaculars in accordance with the current understanding of word usage. Perhaps it's the Lord who inspired that various editions of even the KJV.

So, my question to you is: How do you know if it's right or wrong what they did when it comes to translations?

When it comes down to it, it's quite frequently that I delve into the Hebrew and the Greek to find out which definition of many words applies to the context and grammatical construct of those word's usage in various passages.

In other words, I don't always trust what I think a word may actually mean, because the same word can have different meanings to different people.

In other words, no translation is perfect because of our individualistic mindsets about word usages.

Example, if you say, "I'm tired," I would have no absolute idea about your meaning because it could apply to your being physically tired, mentally tired, weary of recurring situtation(s), tired of your dog hiking his leg on your pant legs while you watch the football game at the exclusion of letting it outside to do it business... If there is context, even then we can apply our own personal misunderstanding, therefore the necessity for me to delve into the inspired languages to see what the Author actually inspired, because in those languages are gender distinctives, one of which can be neuter, which has it's own resulting meaning in which definition applies to the grammatical and spelling with jots and tittles. It all has implact upon overall meaning.

So, I therefore am not opposed to editional changes that focus upon keeping the meaning of key words in phraseology consistent with current vernaculars as best they can. That can help to keep the false teachers out there who teach such things as the trinity actually being nine personages, with the three main personages in the base trinity actually being triune themselves...3X3=9. I saw and heard a charlatan teaching that just this morning through a Youtube video. No matter what, clowns out there will always and forever use the language of scripture against itself and against the Lord's own meaning. That's the weakness of translations.

MM

Hey..where does The Spirit fit in to your process of finding understand..what you have just mentioned is pretty extensive and highly confusing.Only when you believe that what you are reading is inspired will you allow the Spirit to do his job.Whose job you are currently doing.

 

[RDJ]

Agreed. To change the words of the Bible is in effect to place ourselves on the same level with God. That is very dangereous.

So true..if we don't believe that our bible is inspired then how can it truly be The Words of God.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hey..where does The Spirit fit in to your process of finding understand..what you have just mentioned is pretty extensive and highly confusing.Only when you believe that what you are reading is inspired will you allow the Spirit to do his job.Whose job you are currently doing.

That's a reasonable question.

The Spirit is in it all, and that doesn't mean that even the Spirit can and does succeed in every life. Even Jesus could not convert and save everyone to whom He ministered. The nation of Israel mostly rejected Him, with only a hand full of people following Him, even after having seen miracles worked by Him.

So, when it comes to the harsh reality that not all people understand key words the same way when reading the word of God, I'm not sure how I could prove any better to you beyond what I've already stated for examples. What more can be said?

Please recall, if you will, my repeated reference to the ultimate acid test for any and ALL our understanding of the word of God in our translations AND the original languages. I pointed right at 1 John 2:27. It is to that Spirit I ultimately pointed in my post to you, so the Spirit is not only the beginning of understanding, but also the final and ultimate Source for all our understanding of what key words mean within our translations.

So, what part of my short dissertations did you not understand where the Spirit fits in? Did it appear to you that I ever excluded the Spirit at any point in it all? If I understood where you think you saw exclusionary claims, then perhaps I can better answer your inquiry. I would very much like to correct my mistakes if I made any.

MM

 

[Major]

So true..if we don't believe that our bible is inspired then how can it truly be The Words of God.

Amen!

Anytime we think we can replace what God has said, we are stepping into God's shoes.

 

[Major]

That's a reasonable question.

The Spirit is in it all, and that doesn't mean that even the Spirit can and does succeed in every life. Even Jesus could not convert and save everyone to whom He ministered. The nation of Israel mostly rejected Him, with only a hand full of people following Him, even after having seen miracles worked by Him.

So, when it comes to the harsh reality that not all people understand key words the same way when reading the word of God, I'm not sure how I could prove any better to you beyond what I've already stated for examples. What more can be said?

Please recall, if you will, my repeated reference to the ultimate acid test for any and ALL our understanding of the word of God in our translations AND the original languages. I pointed right at 1 John 2:27. It is to that Spirit I ultimately pointed in my post to you, so the Spirit is not only the beginning of understanding, but also the final and ultimate Source for all our understanding of what key words mean within our translations.

So, what part of my short dissertations did you not understand where the Spirit fits in? Did it appear to you that I ever excluded the Spirit at any point in it all? If I understood where you think you saw exclusionary claims, then perhaps I can better answer your inquiry. I would very much like to correct my mistakes if I made any.

MM

You are OK brother!. No errors, just fundamental truths.

1 Corth. 2:10-11..........
“The Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God”.

Since we have been given the amazing gift of God’s Spirit inside ourselves, we can comprehend the thoughts of God, as revealed in the Scripture. The Spirit helps us understand. This is wisdom from God, rather than wisdom from man.

 

[bobinfaith]

I dont mean to be the hater in the room ...

---

προς τα εμπρός...can you tell me what God reveals this Greek word to be without a translator?we read our bibles..we decide a certain word needs to be cross referenced..we get the meaning of that word without knowing the context or the nuance of that verse in Greek or even the chapter for that matter.Either read greek or read english.

Why are we searching for the deeper meaning in another language we dont understand..are we not doing the job the Holy Spirit was sent here to do..maybe the Holy Spirit needs our help.

Beware of the devil and his devices.I know a 100 different english versions,lexicons etc seem like they helpful but from my experience they breed confusion.

Does anyone in hear believe there is a inspired english version of God's Word?I do..I dont dare look anywhere else.

Hey..where does The Spirit fit in to your process of finding understand..what you have just mentioned is pretty extensive and highly confusing.Only when you believe that what you are reading is inspired will you allow the Spirit to do his job.Whose job you are currently doing.

Agreed. To change the words of the Bible is in effect to place ourselves on the same level with God. That is very dangereous.

So true..if we don't believe that our bible is inspired then how can it truly be The Words of God.

Hello RDJ;

First of all, you are not hated. I'm sure you wrote that in jest. You are loved by God, therefore, we all love one another in this forum and am blessed you came back to fellowship at Christian Forum Site.

I'll put on my Greek hat and if you catch me, bear with me. I'll also attempt to answer your combined questions. When God reveals this Greek word, προς τα εμπρός meaning "to hone in" or "go forward" to be without a translator. I feel what you are referring to is a Bible translation.

Whether English, Greek, Hebrew, etc...I do know disciples who study the Bible in Hebrew or Greek as well as English. I personally read the Bible in English and when I need to cross-reference another translation or Biblical text it will reference the Greek or Hebrew in the form of formal equivalence - keeping as close to the Hebrew or Greek (KJV,) or the functional equivalence - keeping the Hebrew or Greek meaning (NLT) but putting their words or idioms into what would be the normal way of saying the same thing in English.

RDJ, whatever translation you are reading in English, I encourage you to study at your pace because God is speaking to you.

If a student of the Bible chooses to read only English, or a combination of English/Hebrew/Greek, we do not put a limit on the reader. This is where the Holy Spirit is indeed working in us.

I believe what you are asking, why are we searching for the deeper meaning in another language we don't understand? Are you speaking of studying in English, then cross reference in Greek when one doesn't understand the language? If that's what you are asking then this doesn't make sense.

HOWEVER, if one is studying English and cross references what the Greek or Hebrew meaning is then this does make sense and is done all the time with Bible students, especially Biblicists.

To answer your question, does anyone believe there is an inspired English version of God's Word? Yes, but it doesn't matter the language. God created language, whoever is studying His Word, He will reveal.

2 Timothy 3:16, All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. - NLT

Finally, you wrote, "Beware of the devil and his devices. I know a 100 different English versions, lexicons etc seem like they helpful but from my experience they breed confusion."

I agree, the wrong book can. On a good note, most Bible translations are vetted and extensively researched by the scholars, theologians and publishers before they are accepted translations.

Unfortunately, there are some bad ones. I believe I understand what Major was saying, meaning beware of Bibles whose words are slanted and fabricating the True Word of God, therefore, do your research before you obtain a translation of the Bible.

RDJ, I hope I addressed your questions to me and if anything, we're all here to learn.

God bless you and your family.

 

[Major]

Hello RDJ;

First of all, you are not hated. I'm sure you wrote that in jest. You are loved by God, therefore, we all love one another in this forum and am blessed you came back to fellowship at Christian Forum Site.

I'll put on my Greek hat and if you catch me, bear with me. I'll also attempt to answer your combined questions. When God reveals this Greek word, προς τα εμπρός meaning "to hone in" or "go forward" to be without a translator. I feel what you are referring to is a Bible translation.

Whether English, Greek, Hebrew, etc...I do know disciples who study the Bible in Hebrew or Greek as well as English. I personally read the Bible in English and when I need to cross-reference another translation or Biblical text it will reference the Greek or Hebrew in the form of formal equivalence - keeping as close to the Hebrew or Greek (KJV,) or the functional equivalence - keeping the Hebrew or Greek meaning (NLT) but putting their words or idioms into what would be the normal way of saying the same thing in English.

RDJ, whatever translation you are reading in English, I encourage you to study at your pace because God is speaking to you.

If a student of the Bible chooses to read only English, or a combination of English/Hebrew/Greek, we do not put a limit on the reader. This is where the Holy Spirit is indeed working in us.

I believe what you are asking, why are we searching for the deeper meaning in another language we don't understand? Are you speaking of studying in English, then cross reference in Greek when one doesn't understand the language? If that's what you are asking then this doesn't make sense.

HOWEVER, if one is studying English and cross references what the Greek or Hebrew meaning is then this does make sense and is done all the time with Bible students, especially Biblicists.

To answer your question, does anyone believe there is a inspired English version of God's Word? Yes, but it doesn't matter the language. God created language, whoever is studying His Word, He will reveal.

2 Timothy 3:16, All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. - NLT

Finally, you wrote, "Beware of the devil and his devices. I know a 100 different English versions, lexicons etc seem like they helpful but from my experience they breed confusion."

I agree, the wrong book can. One a good note, most Bible translations are vetted and extensively researched by the scholars, theologians and publishers before they are accepted translations.

Unfortunately, there are some bad ones. I believe I understand what Major was saying, meaning beware of Bibles whose words are slanted and fabricating the True Word of God, therefore, do your research before you obtain a translation of the Bible.

RDJ, I hope I addressed your questions to me and if anything, we're all here to learn.

God bless you and your family.

Personally......I studied Hebrew and Greek about 50 years ago. I did only because it was required at that time for the work I was doing.
I have enough trouble with plain English so I hated them then and even more now! But that is just me.

However......I am the 1st to have a Hebrew and Greek linier concordance when I dig deep and it is a great help to understanding.....but to read it and speak it....no sir.

 

[crossnote]

Does anyone in hear believe there is a inspired english version of God's Word?I do..I dont dare look anywhere else.

No, only original texts are inspired which we don't have. Some English texts reflect the originals better than others, but no, the translators were not inspired. It took them a lot of sweat, study and God's help to give us a decent English version.

 

[RDJ]

No, only original texts are inspired which we don't have. Some English texts reflect the originals better than others, but no, the translators were not inspired. It took them a lot of sweat, study and God's help to give us a decent English version.

 

[RDJ]

God's help?could you explain further

 

[crossnote]

God's help?could you explain further

Could you be a little more specific as to why you are asking?

 

[RDJ]

Personally......I studied Hebrew and Greek about 50 years ago. I did only because it was required at that time for the work I was doing.
I have enough trouble with plain English so I hated them then and even more now! But that is just me.

However......I am the 1st to have a Hebrew and Greek linier concordance when I dig deep and it is a great help to understanding.....but to read it and speak it....no sir.

Major said:
Agreed. To change the words of the Bible is in effect to place ourselves on the same level with God. That is very dangereous.

Could you be a little more specific as to why you are asking?

Ok...my point if view is that we have an inspired english version..your point of view is that we don't have an inspired version..yet you say that God helped the translators in their translation to english..I agree God helped them by inspiring them..ofcourse you don't mean that so im curious in what way did God help them according to you?

 

[RDJ]

Hello RDJ;

First of all, you are not hated. I'm sure you wrote that in jest. You are loved by God, therefore, we all love one another in this forum and am blessed you came back to fellowship at Christian Forum Site.

I'll put on my Greek hat and if you catch me, bear with me. I'll also attempt to answer your combined questions. When God reveals this Greek word, προς τα εμπρός meaning "to hone in" or "go forward" to be without a translator. I feel what you are referring to is a Bible translation.

Whether English, Greek, Hebrew, etc...I do know disciples who study the Bible in Hebrew or Greek as well as English. I personally read the Bible in English and when I need to cross-reference another translation or Biblical text it will reference the Greek or Hebrew in the form of formal equivalence - keeping as close to the Hebrew or Greek (KJV,) or the functional equivalence - keeping the Hebrew or Greek meaning (NLT) but putting their words or idioms into what would be the normal way of saying the same thing in English.

RDJ, whatever translation you are reading in English, I encourage you to study at your pace because God is speaking to you.

If a student of the Bible chooses to read only English, or a combination of English/Hebrew/Greek, we do not put a limit on the reader. This is where the Holy Spirit is indeed working in us.

I believe what you are asking, why are we searching for the deeper meaning in another language we don't understand? Are you speaking of studying in English, then cross reference in Greek when one doesn't understand the language? If that's what you are asking then this doesn't make sense.

HOWEVER, if one is studying English and cross references what the Greek or Hebrew meaning is then this does make sense and is done all the time with Bible students, especially Biblicists.

To answer your question, does anyone believe there is an inspired English version of God's Word? Yes, but it doesn't matter the language. God created language, whoever is studying His Word, He will reveal.

2 Timothy 3:16, All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. - NLT

Finally, you wrote, "Beware of the devil and his devices. I know a 100 different English versions, lexicons etc seem like they helpful but from my experience they breed confusion."

I agree, the wrong book can. On a good note, most Bible translations are vetted and extensively researched by the scholars, theologians and publishers before they are accepted translations.

Unfortunately, there are some bad ones. I believe I understand what Major was saying, meaning beware of Bibles whose words are slanted and fabricating the True Word of God, therefore, do your research before you obtain a translation of the Bible.

RDJ, I hope I addressed your questions to me and if anything, we're all here to learn.

God bless you and your family.

Hey Bob

I believe what you are asking, why are we searching for the deeper meaning in another language we don't understand? Are you speaking of studying in English, then cross reference in Greek when one doesn't understand the language? If that's what you are asking then this doesn't make sense.....That's not what im asking..I was saying the language you don't understand is Greek.


HOWEVER, if one is studying English and cross references what the Greek or Hebrew meaning is then this does make sense and is done all the time with Bible students, especially Biblicists...The point i was making is that when studing or reading in english ,at the same time we are cross referencing words out of the Greek or Hebrew without understand the verse or chapter in Greek or Hebrew from wich those words are taken.As was demonstrated above by Musicmaster that a word can have multiple meaning depending on context..a biblical principle is not to mix but to seperate..you mixing up two languages..rather focus on what the english word means and allow the Spirit to work


To answer your question, does anyone believe there is an inspired English version of God's Word? Yes, but it doesn't matter the language. God created language, whoever is studying His Word, He will reveal...So you believe that there is a inspired English version?

 

[Major]

Hey Bob

I believe what you are asking, why are we searching for the deeper meaning in another language we don't understand? Are you speaking of studying in English, then cross reference in Greek when one doesn't understand the language? If that's what you are asking then this doesn't make sense.....That's not what im asking..I was saying the language you don't understand is Greek.


HOWEVER, if one is studying English and cross references what the Greek or Hebrew meaning is then this does make sense and is done all the time with Bible students, especially Biblicists...The point i was making is that when studing or reading in english ,at the same time we are cross referencing words out of the Greek or Hebrew without understand the verse or chapter in Greek or Hebrew from wich those words are taken.As was demonstrated above by Musicmaster that a word can have multiple meaning depending on context..a biblical principle is not to mix but to seperate..you mixing up two languages..rather focus on what the english word means and allow the Spirit to work


To answer your question, does anyone believe there is an inspired English version of God's Word? Yes, but it doesn't matter the language. God created language, whoever is studying His Word, He will reveal...So you believe that there is a inspired English version?

Something to consider.

When the King James Bible was printed in 1611 there were many other English translations, just as there are today.

In the original KJV introduction, the Translators said they did not believe in condemning other translations. Referring to the other English versions they wrote.........
“Do we condemn the ancient? We are so far from condemning any of their labors that translated before us either in this land or beyond the sea. We acknowledge them to have been raised up of God for the building and furnishing of His church.”

Did the KJV translators think the other English Bibles were inspired? Yes. The King James translators wrote, “Nay, we affirm and avow that the meanest (worst) translation of the Bible in English is the Word of God.” So they believed that every translation was the inspired word of God, no matter how inferior others thought the translation might be. This is a very serious point. Even if we attack the poorest translation of the Word of God, we are guilty of attacking God’s Word.