The Poor in Spirit

[RDJ]

Something to consider.

When the King James Bible was printed in 1611 there were many other English translations, just as there are today.

In the original KJV introduction, the Translators said they did not believe in condemning other translations. Referring to the other English versions they wrote.........
“Do we condemn the ancient? We are so far from condemning any of their labors that translated before us either in this land or beyond the sea. We acknowledge them to have been raised up of God for the building and furnishing of His church.”

Did the KJV translators think the other English Bibles were inspired? Yes. The King James translators wrote, “Nay, we affirm and avow that the meanest (worst) translation of the Bible in English is the Word of God.” So they believed that every translation was the inspired word of God, no matter how inferior others thought the translation might be. This is a very serious point. Even if we attack the poorest translation of the Word of God, we are guilty of attacking God’s Word.

Hey Major...I don't recall attacking any translation..I've only advocated for the use of one particular bible and I've tried to show by logic and reason why I choose that bible..I've been arguing against the process of how we go about searching for truth.

The general feeling I get in here is that it doesn't really matter what your process is,each man to his own..If it works for you then yay..

 

[RDJ]

Something to consider.

When the King James Bible was printed in 1611 there were many other English translations, just as there are today.

In the original KJV introduction, the Translators said they did not believe in condemning other translations. Referring to the other English versions they wrote.........
“Do we condemn the ancient? We are so far from condemning any of their labors that translated before us either in this land or beyond the sea. We acknowledge them to have been raised up of God for the building and furnishing of His church.”

Did the KJV translators think the other English Bibles were inspired? Yes. The King James translators wrote, “Nay, we affirm and avow that the meanest (worst) translation of the Bible in English is the Word of God.” So they believed that every translation was the inspired word of God, no matter how inferior others thought the translation might be. This is a very serious point. Even if we attack the poorest translation of the Word of God, we

Well the Kjv translators could affirm that because the handful of english translations were all good and they were all translated out of the same Greek and Hebrew texts which is not the case today.

But its really about the quality of english for me..English was at its purest back then and meet for God's word.Which is why he ordained a translation during that time period.

Today our english is watered down and in my opinion defiled(by the devil).Not even The Courts use our modern english..Legal jargon is spoken using a more archaic tone and word usage Worldwide.Because our modern english does not subscribe to the laws of English.If modern english is not good enough for the Courts how can it be good enough for God's written word?

 

[crossnote]

Ok...my point of view is that we have an inspired english version..your point of view is that we don't have an inspired version..yet you say that God helped the translators in their translation to english..I agree God helped them by inspiring them..ofcourse you don't mean that so im curious in what way did God help them according to you?

Thanks for the clarification.
What I meant was that the English translators were not working under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as here...

2 Peter 1:21 (KJV) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Translations on the other hand are wrought out by the work of several men, usually working in committee and it takes hard work, sweat and the grace of God to come to an accurate consensus.

 

[CPerkins]

Mattew 5:3 NKJV
"Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
I want to study the beatitudes in depth. I'm stuck already. I have always thought this verse meant the poor in Spirit meant the humble people.
Some people say it means the weak in faith. I still believe it means the humble.
But what do you believe it to be?

Getting back to the original topic. I'm hearing that there is a difference in how people approach Bible study and a difference in how some of us perceive that God leads us through his Holy Spirit.

God through his Holy Spirit has given me sure knowledge that the Bible is his inspired word. I imagine how God does that may be different from one Christian to another. Wisdom and understanding begin with the fear of the Lord (Prov 9:10). We also are told that we receive a Spirit of truth (John 14:17) and that this Spirit of truth will guide us into all truth (John 16:13).

The question is "what do we believe it means to be poor in spirit?"

How one approaches or seeks the answer to that question is important.

Hey Major...I don't recall attacking any translation..I've only advocated for the use of one particular bible and I've tried to show by logic and reason why I choose that bible..I've been arguing against the process of how we go about searching for truth.

The general feeling I get in here is that it doesn't really matter what your process is,each man to his own..If it works for you then yay..

Well the Kjv translators could affirm that because the handful of english translations were all good and they were all translated out of the same Greek and Hebrew texts which is not the case today.

But its really about the quality of english for me..English was at its purest back then and meet for God's word.Which is why he ordained a translation during that time period.

Today our english is watered down and in my opinion defiled(by the devil).Not even The Courts use our modern english..Legal jargon is spoken using a more archaic tone and word usage Worldwide.Because our modern english does not subscribe to the laws of English.If modern english is not good enough for the Courts how can it be good enough for God's written word?

RDJ are you saying that you believe that we must seek to understanding the meaning of "poor in spirit" through coming to understand the original usage of poor in English rather than striving to see what the word meant as originally spoken. In English poor has quite a number of meanings some of which are more modern and some of which were common meanings at the time the KJV was translated. "Poor in spirit" though is also an idiom which can also take on a different meaning than the individual words. Do you have an old dictionary so as to understand better the original usage of these words in English? I ask because the word "conversation" in the KJV new testament doesn't have the same meaning today that it did at the time the KJV was translated into English.

I agree that the Spirit leads us to understanding. It seems that you question that many of us in Christ are led to study the meaning and intent of God's words in their original language.

To be poor in spirit is an important concept to understand. When I study, I strive to go where God leads me so that I can more fully understand a topic. It's a matter of trust, in that I trust that it is God who leads me and that it is his Spirit that guides me in all understanding.

 

[crossnote]

The question is "what do we believe it means to be poor in spirit?"

Since you used the word 'we', I'll take the liberty (hehe).

I believe since this is the first Beatitude, it is in a sense preparatory.
By this I mean 'poor in spirit' is the first (and continual) work in a person's heart.
God has many ways of doing this, but the end result mainly shows a person's insufficiency in and of themselves.

One of the first steps in receiving Christ and then going on seeing our inability to be pleasing to God as we ought.

Paul expresses this...

Galatians 2:20 (KJV) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2 Corinthians 3:5 (KJV) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

 

[Musicmaster]

Well the Kjv translators could affirm that because the handful of english translations were all good and they were all translated out of the same Greek and Hebrew texts which is not the case today.

But its really about the quality of english for me..English was at its purest back then and meet for God's word.Which is why he ordained a translation during that time period.

Today our english is watered down and in my opinion defiled(by the devil).Not even The Courts use our modern english..Legal jargon is spoken using a more archaic tone and word usage Worldwide.Because our modern english does not subscribe to the laws of English.If modern english is not good enough for the Courts how can it be good enough for God's written word?

You're right that some "bibles" are transliterations rather than translations. The KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus. Those are the Hebrew and Greeks texts that I delve back into because, even in the old, Elizabethan English of the 1611 and beyond, it's not something we all understand today. Some newer Bibles also make use of the Latin Vulgate, Vaticanus, Siniaticus, Aleph, B and C, all of which have some questionable portions that some scholars have stacked up against the majority texts on the basis of age, and some biases in theological bent.

So, when it really comes down to it, all the argumentation in the world will never settle this matter to everyone's satisfaction. What I think we all may and should be able to agree upon is that the Inspirer is available for questions. After all, John was inspired to write that very fact out for us in 1 John 2:27. This renders translation style, meaning and all other items of discussion moot when we have access to the very One who inspired it all through the hands of the writers of the original autographs.

MM

 

[crossnote]

So, when it really comes down to it, all the argumentation in the world will never settle this matter to everyone's satisfaction. What I think we all may and should be able to agree upon is that the Inspirer is available for questions. After all, John was inspired to write that very fact out for us in 1 John 2:27. This renders translation style, meaning and all other items of discussion moot when we have access to the very One who inspired it all through the hands of the writers of the original autographs.

1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Yes, in this matter, John and James make a delightful duo...

James 1:5 (KJV) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

 

[Major]

Well the Kjv translators could affirm that because the handful of english translations were all good and they were all translated out of the same Greek and Hebrew texts which is not the case today.

But its really about the quality of english for me..English was at its purest back then and meet for God's word.Which is why he ordained a translation during that time period.

Today our english is watered down and in my opinion defiled(by the devil).Not even The Courts use our modern english..Legal jargon is spoken using a more archaic tone and word usage Worldwide.Because our modern english does not subscribe to the laws of English.If modern english is not good enough for the Courts how can it be good enough for God's written word?

"Watered Down" English???

I am not an expert by any means, but I always thought that Watered Down referred to something like a proposal, speech, or a statement or a political bill which means that it is weaker or less forceful than its original form.

I am not sure I understand what Watered Down English is when speaking of the KJV Bible.

The "Old English" I have heard spoken does not even sound like English to me.

 

[Major]

Hey Major...I don't recall attacking any translation..I've only advocated for the use of one particular bible and I've tried to show by logic and reason why I choose that bible..I've been arguing against the process of how we go about searching for truth.

The general feeling I get in here is that it doesn't really matter what your process is,each man to his own..If it works for you then yay..

My apologies. I did not mean for you to take that as an attack in any way. It was just a comment, no more no less.

I use the KJV and have for about 60 years. Recently however I have found myself going to the ESV.

 

[Musicmaster]

1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Yes, in this matter, John and James make a delightful duo...

James 1:5 (KJV) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Thank you so much, my friend.

MM

 

[RDJ]

Getting back to the original topic. I'm hearing that there is a difference in how people approach Bible study and a difference in how some of us perceive that God leads us through his Holy Spirit.

God through his Holy Spirit has given me sure knowledge that the Bible is his inspired word. I imagine how God does that may be different from one Christian to another. Wisdom and understanding begin with the fear of the Lord (Prov 9:10). We also are told that we receive a Spirit of truth (John 14:17) and that this Spirit of truth will guide us into all truth (John 16:13).

The question is "what do we believe it means to be poor in spirit?"

How one approaches or seeks the answer to that question is important.





RDJ are you saying that you believe that we must seek to understanding the meaning of "poor in spirit" through coming to understand the original usage of poor in English rather than striving to see what the word meant as originally spoken. In English poor has quite a number of meanings some of which are more modern and some of which were common meanings at the time the KJV was translated. "Poor in spirit" though is also an idiom which can also take on a different meaning than the individual words. Do you have an old dictionary so as to understand better the original usage of these words in English? I ask because the word "conversation" in the KJV new testament doesn't have the same meaning today that it did at the time the KJV was translated into English.

I agree that the Spirit leads us to understanding. It seems that you question that many of us in Christ are led to study the meaning and intent of God's words in their original language.

To be poor in spirit is an important concept to understand. When I study, I strive to go where God leads me so that I can more fully understand a topic. It's a matter of trust, in that I trust that it is God who leads me and that it is his Spirit that guides me in all understanding.

 

[RDJ]

Matthew 5.Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 6:20.And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

These verses are not telling us that the spirit is poor..It's literary saying that a poor person/a person who does not have much is blessed by reason of not having much.There is a direct relationship between poor and humble just as there is a relationship between riches and pride..Riches exalt the flesh(pride) but a virtue of being poor is a spirit of humbleness..

Hence the saying..."blessed are the poor..........in spirit.

I recall a story in the gospels..where Jesus told a rich guy to sell all that he has and follow him..the reason why Jesus told him fo sell all. was not to make him poor but to humble him..having riches exalts the flesh..Jesus wanted to abase him or in other words humble him.

There are many such stories about the rich in the bible.

Mark10:23."And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God".

 

[Musicmaster]

Matthew 5.Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 6:20.And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

These verses are not telling us that the spirit is poor..It's literary saying that a poor person/a person who does not have much is blessed by reason of not having much.There is a direct relationship between poor and humble just as there is a relationship between riches and pride..Riches exalt the flesh(pride) but a virtue of being poor is a spirit of humbleness..

Hence the saying..."blessed are the poor..........in spirit.

I recall a story in the gospels..where Jesus told a rich guy to sell all that he has and follow him..the reason why Jesus told him fo sell all. was not to make him poor but to humble him..having riches exalts the flesh..Jesus wanted to abase him or in other words humble him.

There are many such stories about the rich in the bible.

Mark10:23."And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God".

Some of the most covetous people I've ever encountered are poor people who are just as greedy for what they don't have as rich people who don't have all that they want. This entitlement culture of poor people all around us is ample evidence of that fact. That they are willing to allow the government to steal tax dollars from working people to hand over to people who are worthy of death through starvation, those who can work, but just don't want to, they are a large part of what makes up the population of the wicked, covetous vermin of this earth. Those who cross our borders illegally, especially those who get onto the public dole of our money, they all are a large part of the wicked vermin who are partakers of those evil politicians promoting all this nonsense.

Indeed there are SOME people, rich and poor, who are content with what they have, but they are few and far between.

MM

 

[CPerkins]

Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. (KJV)

Poor in spirit doesn't mean materially poor necessarily. It has to do with the mind and heart, an attitude which produces a contrite spirit that trembles at the word of God, humbled by God's word, fears God and thus is able to come to understanding and wisdom.

 

[Musicmaster]

Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. (KJV)

Poor in spirit doesn't mean materially poor necessarily. It has to do with the mind and heart, an attitude which produces a contrite spirit that trembles at the word of God, humbled by God's word, fears God and thus is able to come to understanding and wisdom.

True indeed. It seems that a large percentage of professing believers have no clue what Jesus was addressing in the Beatitudes. That video clip I provided in post #25 expresses what so many are missing. Many a preacher teaches those as if they automatically apply to us today, even though we were not raised with the attitude that we're something special because of a bloodline tracing back to Abraham. Jesus shattered Jewish pride in their bloodline, with them thinking that they were guaranteed a place above all others by way of that bloodline birth, that their spiritual stature was bestowed upon them irrespective of their prideful attitudes. Jesus' teaching shattered that illusion of theirs. We ALL can indeed learn from what Jesus taught to the haughty, for some of us sometimes fall into that trap, but context is key in that dissertation.

MM

 

[CPerkins]

True indeed. It seems that a large percentage of professing believers have no clue what Jesus was addressing in the Beatitudes. That video clip I provided in post #25 expresses what so many are missing. Many a preacher teaches those as if they automatically apply to us today, even though we were not raised with the attitude that we're something special because of a bloodline tracing back to Abraham. Jesus shattered Jewish pride in their bloodline, with them thinking that they were guaranteed a place above all others by way of that bloodline birth, that their spiritual stature was bestowed upon them irrespective of their prideful attitudes. Jesus' teaching shattered that illusion of theirs. We ALL can indeed learn from what Jesus taught to the haughty, for some of us sometimes fall into that trap, but context is key in that dissertation.

MM

I agree. Context is always important when studying God's word.

It would be worthwhile to start a new thread on Bible study and how we are led to understand God's word.

 

[bobinfaith]

Matthew 5:3 NKJV
"Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
I want to study the beatitudes in depth. I'm stuck already. I have always thought this verse meant the poor in Spirit meant the humble people.
Some people say it means the weak in faith. I still believe it means the humble.
But what do you believe it to be?

Hello Cosia;

Thank you again, for starting this thread, The Poor In Spirit. By now you may have read everyone's posts addressing the poor in spirit and what God's Word is saying to all of us.

You mentioned you desire to continue studying more on Beatitudes and what it is saying to you, but also how you apply it.

God bless you, sister, and your family.

 

[RDJ]

Some of the most covetous people I've ever encountered are poor people who are just as greedy for what they don't have as rich people who don't have all that they want. This entitlement culture of poor people all around us is ample evidence of that fact. That they are willing to allow the government to steal tax dollars from working people to hand over to people who are worthy of death through starvation, those who can work, but just don't want to, they are a large part of what makes up the population of the wicked, covetous vermin of this earth. Those who cross our borders illegally, especially those who get onto the public dole of our money, they all are a large part of the wicked vermin who are partakers of those evil politicians promoting all this nonsense.

Indeed there are SOME people, rich and poor, who are content with what they have, but they are few and far between.

MM

To have an abundance of God's wisdom and understanding is to be spiritually rich...are not the wicked spiritually poor?are not those who lack wisdom and understanding spiritually poor?

Are we saying that the spiritually poor are blessed?if so,then what are the spiritually rich?they would be even more blessed I suppose..

These verses are talking of the poor being blessed in spirit..Yes literally poor people..now poor does not necessarily mean to be homeless or to be begging on the streets..Jesus our Lord walked this earth as a poor man..Jesus's disciples were all poor men(the twelve) the poor is just your average joe..the poor are more likely to accept Jesus and to give up what they have for his name than the rich are.thus the reason they are blessed.its evident in the bible

 

[crossnote]

A famous saying during the Reformation was "We are but beggars".
Perhaps it is not until we see our utter need of God's grace and provision, are we considered 'poor' in God's eyes.

 

[CPerkins]

A famous saying during the Reformation was "We are but beggars".
Perhaps it is not until we see our utter need of God's grace and provision, are we considered 'poor' in God's eyes.

This what God is clearly telling us in Isa 66:2. We ought to be of a poor and contrite spirit. Seeing our great need for God in our lives, humbly submissive knowing how much we need God to direct our steps.

To have an abundance of God's wisdom and understanding is to be spiritually rich...are not the wicked spiritually poor?are not those who lack wisdom and understanding spiritually poor?

Are we saying that the spiritually poor are blessed?if so,then what are the spiritually rich?they would be even more blessed I suppose..

These verses are talking of the poor being blessed in spirit..Yes literally poor people..now poor does not necessarily mean to be homeless or to be begging on the streets..Jesus our Lord walked this earth as a poor man..Jesus's disciples were all poor men(the twelve) the poor is just your average joe..the poor are more likely to accept Jesus and to give up what they have for his name than the rich are.thus the reason they are blessed.its evident in the bible

The world is completely lacking the Holy Spirit. So they are not poor in Spirit because they don't have God's Spirit in them. We are told to be poor in Spirit. Someone might be materially poor, but God is certainly not telling us that only the materially poor will enter the Kingdom of God.

The opposite of poor in Spirit is not spiritually rich. All that have God's Spirit have greater riches than what is in the world. No, to be poor in Spirit is a coming to know through the riches of God's Holy Spirit that we are poor, frail and miserably needy. In mind and heart we know how much we need God to guide, direct, help and teach us. It's an is an attitude of mind that comes through the riches of God's Holy Spirit. We are poor in the sense of seeing how weak we are in the flesh.