Must one Hold to the trinity to be saved?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Cooper said:
Spoken like a true believer. If I may, I will post about Psalm 82 from my notes.

Psalm 82. The 'Most High God' was possibly the High Priest or the chief judge. The sons of god are those under him, the magistrates. They were all corrupt. This is the 'god' who sat on the mercy seat between the two golden cherubim in Exodus 25.

The gods were men who acted as judges, it may have been the High Priest sitting on the mercy seat?

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.

1 God standeth in the great assembly;
he gives judgement among the "gods"

2 "How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked? [false god]
Selah

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods"
you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Footnotes:
(verse 1) This is the beginning of the sentence and so 'God' is capitalized. The fact he stood in the great assembly tells us he was a man and was either a magistrate or judge possibly the High Priest who presided in the great assembly. They were known as 'gods' notice it is plural, these 'gods' are ordinary men.

(verse 2) In the Hebrew the 'you' is plural, and we know there is only one God, but these judges are showing partiality to the wicked.

(verse 3 & 4) These human 'gods' are not protecting the oppressed or the weak and needy.

(verse 5) These gods know nothing. They are not the almighty. Walk in darkness means they walk in sin and wickedness.

(verse 6) These 'gods' are the sons of the High Priest.

(verse 7) They will die like every other human ruler.

(verse 8) Now Asaph is calling for the Almighty God to rise up and judge these men.
Click to expand...
look at Verse 7.
7 But you will die like mere men;


to me, this is saying before this judgement made by God these (gods = Sons of God) [from the Tanakh] (6 I said: ‘You are ‘gods’, and you are all sons of Elyon, 7 yet you will die like mortal men) ...YOU WILL DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN!

so before this, they would not die like mortal men. this must be Angels. we have Genesis 3, 6, and 11 that shows us where Fallen Angels tried to corrupt God's Creation of mankind. and now we see these specific Angels are going to DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN!

but anyways, this in the Hebrew Bible is 1 of the Councils mentioned in the Bible. So we have proof God does have a Council that does not include the complete Godhead. and these members are called (gods or Sons of God) and will DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN for their wrong doing.

gives more understanding to 2nd Peter and Jude.
 
GodisSpirit said:
look at Verse 7.
7 But you will die like mere men;


to me, this is saying before this judgement made by God these (gods = Sons of God) [from the Tanakh] (6 I said: ‘You are ‘gods’, and you are all sons of Elyon, 7 yet you will die like mortal men) ...YOU WILL DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN!

so before this, they would not die like mortal men. this must be Angels. we have Genesis 3, 6, and 11 that shows us where Fallen Angels tried to corrupt God's Creation of mankind. and now we see these specific Angels are going to DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN!

but anyways, this in the Hebrew Bible is 1 of the Councils mentioned in the Bible. So we have proof God does have a Council that does not include the complete Godhead. and these members are called (gods or Sons of God) and will DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN for their wrong doing.

gives more understanding to 2nd Peter and Jude.
Click to expand...
You have given us all food for thought. Based on your references to the Tanakh, I assume you are a Messianic Jew? Anyway I am happy to let you teach me, I am sure you know a lot more than I do. God bless.
 
Last edited:
GodisSpirit said:
look at Verse 7.
7 But you will die like mere men;


to me, this is saying before this judgement made by God these (gods = Sons of God) [from the Tanakh] (6 I said: ‘You are ‘gods’, and you are all sons of Elyon, 7 yet you will die like mortal men) ...YOU WILL DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN!

so before this, they would not die like mortal men. this must be Angels. we have Genesis 3, 6, and 11 that shows us where Fallen Angels tried to corrupt God's Creation of mankind. and now we see these specific Angels are going to DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN!

but anyways, this in the Hebrew Bible is 1 of the Councils mentioned in the Bible. So we have proof God does have a Council that does not include the complete Godhead. and these members are called (gods or Sons of God) and will DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN for their wrong doing.

gives more understanding to 2nd Peter and Jude.
Click to expand...

My dear friend, ALL Scripture is determined by CONTEXT and or LOCATION.

The context of Psalms Psalms 82 is about the JUDGES of that day!!! What you are doing is one of the classic mistakes of exegesis and that is taking something out of context to make it fit a parameter that we want it to say.

It has nothing at all to do with the Sons of God. It has NOTHING to do with angels!

It is a very solemn psalm that God directs to judges, and basically God declares that He is not happy or satisfied with men's judgment.
 
Cooper said:
Spoken like a true believer. If I may, I will post about Psalm 82 from my notes.

Psalm 82. The 'Most High God' was possibly the High Priest or the chief judge. The sons of god are those under him, the magistrates. They were all corrupt. This is the 'god' who sat on the mercy seat between the two golden cherubim in Exodus 25.

The gods were men who acted as judges, it may have been the High Priest sitting on the mercy seat?

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.

1 God standeth in the great assembly;
he gives judgement among the "gods"

2 "How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked? [false god]
Selah

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods"
you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Footnotes:
(verse 1) This is the beginning of the sentence and so 'God' is capitalized. The fact he stood in the great assembly tells us he was a man and was either a magistrate or judge possibly the High Priest who presided in the great assembly. They were known as 'gods' notice it is plural, these 'gods' are ordinary men.

(verse 2) In the Hebrew the 'you' is plural, and we know there is only one God, but these judges are showing partiality to the wicked.

(verse 3 & 4) These human 'gods' are not protecting the oppressed or the weak and needy.

(verse 5) These gods know nothing. They are not the almighty. Walk in darkness means they walk in sin and wickedness.

(verse 6) These 'gods' are the sons of the High Priest.

(verse 7) They will die like every other human ruler.

(verse 8) Now Asaph is calling for the Almighty God to rise up and judge these men.
Click to expand...

You said.............
"The gods were men who acted as judges, it may have been the High Priest sitting on the mercy seat?"

Where are you getting this stuff?
What are your sources??????????

"gods were men who acted as judges"?????

Seriously my friend! No priest sat on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies. The Priests were even afraid to enter that place much less SIT ON THE MERCY SEAT. That is the place where the blood was applied and God met and covered the sins of the people!
 
Major said:
My dear friend, ALL Scripture is determined by CONTEXT and or LOCATION.

The context of Psalms Psalms 82 is about the JUDGES of that day!!! What you are doing is one of the classic mistakes of exegesis and that is taking something out of context to make it fit a parameter that we want it to say.

It has nothing at all to do with the Sons of God. It has NOTHING to do with angels!

It is a very solemn psalm that God directs to judges, and basically God declares that He is not happy or satisfied with men's judgment.
Click to expand...
the judges were never called Sons of Elyon. and they were always going to die like Mortal Men. but who God is speaking to He tells them they will die like Mortal Men. no one has to tell a mortal man they will die like themselves. these clearly are not Mortal Men in Psalms 82.
 
GodisSpirit said:
and where this makes the most sense is when two or more people, filled with the Holy Spirit, are gathered together Jesus is in the midst.

does that make sense? a bunch of people full of the Holy Spirit together but we get Jesus in the midst. why not the Holy Spirit in the midst? the Holy Spirit is inside the Believers. so shouldn't the Holy Spirit be in the midst of Holy Spirit filled people? instead, it is Jesus. I agree with this statement from you [I am not Oneness. Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts.]

clearly when Holy Spirit filled Believers are gathered and it is Jesus in the midst proves this portion of your statement [Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts].
Click to expand...
To be clear, I do believe God is present in small gatherings. However that’s not at all what Matthew 18 is talking about.

In full it says: “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Some say that when two or more pray the same prayer God will answer it.

Not only is that not in the context of this verse, but it’s also not accurate theology. In fact, it can be very dangerous theology that can lead to spiritual abuse.

God listens to our prayers whether we are alone or not. Being with others does’t increase the likelihood of God hearing and responding to our prayers.

Now, the CONTEXT for this Scripture is Matthew 18:15-7............
" If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. ’If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. "

The context of is how to handle church discipline. This passage gives us clear and very practical steps we should take in difficult situations.

So the correct exegesis is the encouragement that comes at the end of these instructions. Essentially Jesus is saying you follow these steps and leave the consequences up to me. Now whether it is Jesus or the Holy Spirit, it does not matter as they are one in the same.
 
GodisSpirit said:
look at Verse 7.
7 But you will die like mere men;


to me, this is saying before this judgement made by God these (gods = Sons of God) [from the Tanakh] (6 I said: ‘You are ‘gods’, and you are all sons of Elyon, 7 yet you will die like mortal men) ...YOU WILL DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN!

so before this, they would not die like mortal men. this must be Angels. we have Genesis 3, 6, and 11 that shows us where Fallen Angels tried to corrupt God's Creation of mankind. and now we see these specific Angels are going to DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN!

but anyways, this in the Hebrew Bible is 1 of the Councils mentioned in the Bible. So we have proof God does have a Council that does not include the complete Godhead. and these members are called (gods or Sons of God) and will DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN for their wrong doing.

gives more understanding to 2nd Peter and Jude.
Click to expand...

You said.........
"but anyways, this in the Hebrew Bible is 1 of the Councils mentioned in the Bible. So we have proof God does have a Council that does not include the complete Godhead. and these members are called (gods or Sons of God) and will DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN for their wrong doing."

Are you sure you want to say this??????????
 
Last edited:
Major said:
You said.............
"The gods were men who acted as judges, it may have been the High Priest sitting on the mercy seat?"

Where are you getting this stuff?
What are your sources??????????

"gods were men who acted as judges"?????

Seriously my friend! No priest sat on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies. The Priests were even afraid to enter that place much less SIT ON THE MERCY SEAT. That is the place where the blood was applied and God met and covered the sins of the people!
Click to expand...
That is what the Bible says.

God forbade the making of graven images, but that did not stop them making and then placing a golden cherubim and seraphim either side of the mercy seat. God dealt with these disobedient idol worshippers most severely and still they have not repented of their sins.
 
GodisSpirit said:
the judges were never called Sons of Elyon. and they were always going to die like Mortal Men. but who God is speaking to He tells them they will die like Mortal Men. no one has to tell a mortal man they will die like themselves. these clearly are not Mortal Men in Psalms 82.
Click to expand...
Wrong my friend! Clearly those judges were acting way above the normal men of that day.
Clearly, earthly judges are held to a high standard of morality because they will one day stand before the Judge.

Judges died like mortal men because they WERE mortal men.
The psalmist is crying out for justice from human authorities who seem like gods among the other people. They must remember that the only reason they are in such a position is because God allowed it.

The warning in the Psalms 82 you used was from God to those MEN to remember that they are men and as such will die like all mortal men and they were NOT ANGELS or Sons of God as such.
 
Cooper said:
That is what the Bible says.

God forbade the making of graven images, but that did not stop them making and then placing a golden cherubim and seraphim either side of the mercy seat. God dealt with these disobedient idol worshippers most severely and still they have not repented of their sins.
Click to expand...

NO that is not what the Bible says my friend. They did what God told them to do.
I posted the CONTEXT for what God said.

GOD TOLD MOSES to place the cheribim on the Ark of the covenant in Ex. 25:18..............
"And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat."
 
Major said:
You said.........
"but anyways, this in the Hebrew Bible is 1 of the Councils mentioned in the Bible. So we have proof God does have a Council that does not include the complete Godhead. and these members are called (gods or Sons of God) and will DIE LIKE MORTAL MEN for their wrong doing."

Do YOU realize how un- Biblical this is??????

What are your sources?????
Click to expand...
In the Books of Kings (1 Kings 22:19), the prophet Micaiah has a vision of Yahweh seated among "the whole host of heaven" standing on his right and on his left. He asks who will go entice Ahab and a spirit volunteers. This has been interpreted as an example of a divine council.
^
Notice, only 1 representation of God is listed in this Chronicles and Kings Version of the Council of God
 
Major said:
Wrong my friend! Clearly those judges were acting way above the normal men of that day.
Clearly, earthly judges are held to a high standard of morality because they will one day stand before the Judge.

Judges died like mortal men because they WERE mortal men.
The psalmist is crying out for justice from human authorities who seem like gods among the other people. They must remember that the only reason they are in such a position is because God allowed it.

The warning in the Psalms 82 you used was from God to those MEN to remember that they are men and as such will die like all mortal men and they were NOT ANGELS or Sons of God as such.
Click to expand...
Psalms 82 is no different than Psalms 89 or Chronicles and Kings
 
19 Micaiah then continued, “Therefore hear the word of ADONAI. I saw ADONAI sitting on His throne, with all the hosts of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left.
20 Then ADONAI said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ One suggested this and another that,
21 until a certain spirit came forward and stood before ADONAI and said, ‘I will entice him.’ So ADONAI asked him, ‘How?’
22 And he said: ‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said: ‘You shall entice him and shall prevail also—go and do so.’
23 Now therefore, behold, ADONAI has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and ADONAI has decreed evil upon you.”
 
Major said:
NO that is not what the Bible says my friend. They did what God told them to do.
I posted the CONTEXT for what God said.

GOD TOLD MOSES to place the cheribim on the Ark of the covenant in Ex. 25:18..............
"And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat."
Click to expand...

You do know they called their false god's "LORD" don't you? They called the Golden Calf LORD, just an example, and because the “LORD” told them to put idols on either side of the Mercy Seat, it does not mean it was the God who brought them out of Egypt, the same God who commanded them not to make graven images in the Ten Commandments.
 
Last edited:
GodisSpirit said:
19 Micaiah then continued, “Therefore hear the word of ADONAI. I saw ADONAI sitting on His throne, with all the hosts of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left.
20 Then ADONAI said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ One suggested this and another that,
21 until a certain spirit came forward and stood before ADONAI and said, ‘I will entice him.’ So ADONAI asked him, ‘How?’
22 And he said: ‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said: ‘You shall entice him and shall prevail also—go and do so.’
23 Now therefore, behold, ADONAI has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and ADONAI has decreed evil upon you.”
Click to expand...
what else do we notice about these Verses?

No Godhead, just Adonai!
the Angels are allowed to offer up suggestions [Verse 20]
God listens and agrees with one of the SPIRITS [no men looking members- they are all SPIRITS]

so how come this cannot be a setting for Genesis 1:26 since we know the following Verse is God in the Singular saying man is created in HIS OWN IMAGE (or God's OWN IMAGE)?

clearly God can have a Divine Council without the Godhead, just Angels or Sons of Elyon (Most high God) and decisions can be made without the Godhead.

or 1st Kings is a LIE!

and we know 1st Kings [is NOT] a lie!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top