Must one Hold to the trinity to be saved?

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I can not agree Moose. Now THINK that through Moose. All the way to TODAY.

IF the "Sons of God" in Genesis 6 are angels then they must be fallen angels because good angels would never sin and fornicate with humans.

So the 1st thing you need to do is explain why Jesus Lied in Matthew 22:30 when He said that angels do not marry/reproduce.
That's getting off the subject again by 'trying' to use the Matthew 22:30 Scripture, simply because the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 were ON THE EARTH having left their estate in the Heavenly when they took wives of the daughters of men and mated with them producing the giant hybrid race.

Furthermore, the Isaiah 26:14 verse where the KJV translated a proper name for the giants (Rephaim) to the word "deceased", shows those will have NO resurrection (since you guys want to bring the idea of resurrection into this).

Isa 26:14
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are
deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
KJV


Can't say that is about bullies, because even bullies will have their resurrection to the "resurrection of damnation" that Lord Jesus taught in John 5:28-29.

But the giant hybrids will NOT have a resurrection from the dead. And that verifies that God did not create those giants.
 
Of course, I believe we are in the image of God.
More specifically, in the 'outward' image likeness of God, in the form sense?

I grasp how some believe that Adam was made in the 'spiritual image' of God, with that not having anything to do with outward likeness or form. I'm not talking about a spiritual image. I'm talking about the image of man, one's outward likeness being the same likeness that God has.
 
I am not Oneness. Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts.
Well I very much believe in the idea of a Trinity, and I'm not a Catholic either.

And they didn't start that idea either.

The 1 John 5:7 verse is part of the Traditional Greek text traced all the way back to Antioch with the Peshitta. (and beware of translations of the Peshitta NT by Etheridge, et al).
 
Well I very much believe in the idea of a Trinity, and I'm not a Catholic either.

And they didn't start that idea either.

The 1 John 5:7 verse is part of the Traditional Greek text traced all the way back to Antioch with the Peshitta. (and beware of translations of the Peshitta NT by Etheridge, et al).
I just explained the current version of 1 John 5:7 was nowhere to be found in any Greek Bible before the 12th Century.

When was 1 John 5:7 added to the Bible? - Quora​

https://www.quora.com › When-was-1-John-5-7-added-to...

The text of 1 John 5:7 is not found in any Greek texts before the 12th century.

someone added to the Bible after it was written thousand years before! they broke the Command by God in Revelation.
 
and where this makes the most sense is when two or more people, filled with the Holy Spirit, are gathered together Jesus is in the midst.

does that make sense? a bunch of people full of the Holy Spirit together but we get Jesus in the midst. why not the Holy Spirit in the midst? the Holy Spirit is inside the Believers. so shouldn't the Holy Spirit be in the midst of Holy Spirit filled people? instead, it is Jesus. I agree with this statement from you [I am not Oneness. Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts.]

clearly when Holy Spirit filled Believers are gathered and it is Jesus in the midst proves this portion of your statement [Neither am I the sort of Trinitarian who divides the One God into three parts].
Statements like 'dividing God into three parts' is just a slander type statement directed in anger, that's all. It's actually not against the ones it is aimed at, but is directly against The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

How do we know for certain, that Jesus Christ is One Person in the triune Godhead? Easy, like I've shown before, Hebrews 1:3 reveals that Jesus by Himself purged our sins and sat down on the right hand of The Father. That is about Christ's Blood shed on His cross. The Father was not born in the flesh to die on the cross, only The Son was, and that reveals how God is Three Persons.
 
Statements like 'dividing God into three parts' is just a slander type statement directed in anger, that's all. It's actually not against the ones it is aimed at, but is directly against The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

How do we know for certain, that Jesus Christ is One Person in the triune Godhead? Easy, like I've shown before, Hebrews 1:3 reveals that Jesus by Himself purged our sins and sat down on the right hand of The Father. That is about Christ's Blood shed on His cross. The Father was not born in the flesh to die on the cross, only The Son was, and that reveals how God is Three Persons.
what we do know is that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit because in Matthew-Mark-Luke He told the Pharisees He cast out Demons by the Holy Spirit.
we also know the Father dwelled in Jesus doing the speaking and works.
John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own; ((but the Father dwelling in Me)) [[does]] (His works).
 
what we do know is that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit because in Matthew-Mark-Luke He told the Pharisees He cast out Demons by the Holy Spirit.
we also know the Father dwelled in Jesus doing the speaking and works.
John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own; ((but the Father dwelling in Me)) [[does]] (His works).
Clearly, the Father was on the Throne in Heaven plus according to Jesus dwelled inside Jesus simultaneously. Omnipresence at its finest!
 
And I say that it is impossible for Jesus to never have existed with the 'image of man' before He was born in the flesh.
My intended was that it is impossible that Lord Jesus could NOT have existed without that outward image of man while in the Heavenly before being born of woman. He has always had that image of man, since that image is from God's Own Image Likeness per Genesis 1:26-27, and Jesus Christ was NEVER created but has been since everlasting.
 
actually, 1 John 5:7 does appear in all 3 Codexes (Alexandrian-Vaticanus-Sinaiticus) but they all 3 read the same:
but it reads:
6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For they that testify are three,

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.

the Codexes were 1,000+ years before the KJV.

When was 1 John 5:7 added to the Bible? - Quora

https://www.quora.com › When-was-1-John-5-7-added-to...

The text of 1 John 5:7 is not found in any Greek texts before the 12th century.
^
so 1 John 5:7 is an ADD-ON, which is condemned by God in John's Book of Revelation.
You are mistaken.

1 John 5:7-8
7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
KJV


The version you are reading leaves out that above 1 John 5:7 verse I quote above. New Testament translations prior to 1881 used the Received Texts, the same text the KJV translators used.


All... the following NT versions (just a few I quote below) are modern versions from Wescott and Hort's new Greek translation of 1881, or a combination of the Critical text NU which was based on the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Just because they list the 1 John 5:7 number does NOT mean they kept the original verse that is in the Received Text above in red.

1 John 5:7
7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
ASV

1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that testify:
ESV

1 John 5:7
7 So we have these three witnesses
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.

1 John 5:7
7 A triple testimony:
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

1 John 5:7
And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is true.
BBE

1 John 5:7
7 There are three witnesses:
(from GOD'S WORD Copyright © 1995 by God's Word to the Nations Bible Society. All rights reserved.)

1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that testify to it,
Goodspeed
 
You are mistaken.

1 John 5:7-8
7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
KJV


The version you are reading leaves out that above 1 John 5:7 verse I quote above. New Testament translations prior to 1881 used the Received Texts, the same text the KJV translators used.


All... the following NT versions (just a few I quote below) are modern versions from Wescott and Hort's new Greek translation of 1881, or a combination of the Critical text NU which was based on the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Just because they list the 1 John 5:7 number does NOT mean they kept the original verse that is in the Received Text above in red.

1 John 5:7
7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
ASV

1 John 5:7-8

7 For there are three that testify:
ESV

1 John 5:7

7 So we have these three witnesses
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.

1 John 5:7
7 A triple testimony:
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

1 John 5:7
And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is true.
BBE

1 John 5:7

7 There are three witnesses:
(from GOD'S WORD Copyright © 1995 by God's Word to the Nations Bible Society. All rights reserved.)

1 John 5:7-8

7 For there are three that testify to it,
Goodspeed
actually, i am not mistaken. it was added after the 12th Century.

When was 1 John 5:7 added to the Bible? - Quora

https://www.quora.com › When-was-1-John-5-7-added-to...

The text of 1 John 5:7 is not found in any Greek texts before the 12th century.
^
so 1 John 5:7 is an ADD-ON, which is condemned by God in John's Book of Revelation.
 
the Codexes are from 2nd and 4th Century, FIRST GREEK BIBLE.

6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For they that testify are three,

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.


the CURRENT VERSION of 1 john 5:7 was added [[((AFTER))]] the 12th Century.

When was 1 John 5:7 added to the Bible? - Quora

https://www.quora.com › When-was-1-John-5-7-added-to...

The text of 1 John 5:7 is not found in any Greek texts before the 12th century.
^
so 1 John 5:7 is an ADD-ON, which is condemned by God in John's Book of Revelation.
 
I just explained the current version of 1 John 5:7 was nowhere to be found in any Greek Bible before the 12th Century.

When was 1 John 5:7 added to the Bible? - Quora

https://www.quora.com › When-was-1-John-5-7-added-to...

The text of 1 John 5:7 is not found in any Greek texts before the 12th century.

someone added to the Bible after it was written thousand years before! they broke the Command by God in Revelation.
Sorry, you or your source you are listening to, has it BACKWARDS. The 1 John 5:7 verses IS found in the Textus Receptus Greek manuscript, and in the majority of Greek manuscripts.

The Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are NOT proven to have existed prior to the 15th century, and they omit not only the 1 John 5:7 text, but also the last 12 verses of the Book of Mark. And they are the ONLY two Greek manuscripts that omit that section of Mark. None of the other ancient Greek manuscripts do that, only the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus does that omitting, showing those two manuscripts are corruptions.

The Textus Receptus, or Received Text, DID exist prior to even the 5th century, and is even proven to have existed back to Antioch through translations of the Syrian Peshitta (circa 150 A.D.).
 
Sorry, you or your source you are listening to, has it BACKWARDS. The 1 John 5:7 verses IS found in the Textus Receptus Greek manuscript, and in the majority of Greek manuscripts.

The Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are NOT proven to have existed prior to the 15th century, and they omit not only the 1 John 5:7 text, but also the last 12 verses of the Book of Mark. And they are the ONLY two Greek manuscripts that omit that section of Mark. None of the other ancient Greek manuscripts do that, only the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus does that omitting, showing those two manuscripts are corruptions.

The Textus Receptus, or Received Text, DID exist prior to even the 5th century, and is even proven to have existed back to Antioch through translations of the Syrian Peshitta (circa 150 A.D.).
Textus Receptus (Latin: "received text") refers to all printed editions of the Greek New Testament from Erasmus' Novum Instrumentum omne (1516) to 1633.

the codexes are literally 1,000 years OLDER than the Textus Receptus!
 
the Codexes are from 2nd and 4th Century, FIRST GREEK BIBLE.

6 This is he that came through water and blood, Jesus Christ: not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood; and it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For they that testify are three,

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are one.


the CURRENT VERSION of 1 john 5:7 was added [[((AFTER))]] the 12th Century.

When was 1 John 5:7 added to the Bible? - Quora

https://www.quora.com › When-was-1-John-5-7-added-to...

The text of 1 John 5:7 is not found in any Greek texts before the 12th century.
^
so 1 John 5:7 is an ADD-ON, which is condemned by God in John's Book of Revelation.
No, there are only two TYPES of Greek manuscript texts. The Traditional text, which is about the Received Text, or Textus Receptus. And then the Critical text, which is about the Greek manuscripts that Wescott and Hort used for their new Greek translation of 1881, and then the Nestle-Aland and United Bible Societies critical text joined with Wescott and Hort's Greek translation.

Thusly:
1. Textus Receptus, or Received Text. (KJV, Douay-Rheims Bible, Noah Webster's Bible (1833), etc.
2. Critical text (Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, NU standing for Nestle-Aland and UBS translations), NIV, ESV, NKJV, ASV, etc., basically the modern versions I quoted in my post above that leave out the text of 1 John 5:7 about the Trinity.

90% of Codex Vaticanus is used for modern New Testament versions after the 1880s. About 8% comes from Codex Sinaiticus, and the rest is from other manuscripts sections the liberal critics add over time.

Codex Vaticanus was discovered in the Vatican in 1475, and has no documented origin prior to that. The higher critics behind the Critical text revisions instead try to say it is one of the most ancient Greek texts, which is a total fabrication.

Likewise, the Codex Sinaiticus only has a history going back to 1840. A Greek named Simonides who was a Greek paleographer expert at analyzing ancient Greek manuscripts, was at the monastery of St. Catherine's in Ethos, Greece. He was asked to make a new translation of the whole Bible, in order to present to the Czar of Russia in hopes the monastery might be given a donation to buy a printing press. Simonides did the work in haste which when done it required many corrections, so the actual manuscripts shows many, many, edits, and write-overs. The project thus failed, so they couldn't present it to the Czar.

Then later around 1844, the German rationalist Tischendorf in search of ancient Greek manuscripts in the middle east, because he believed the real New Testament had been lost, said he found the manuscript in a trash bin at St. Catherine's, in prep to be burned, even though those at the monastery denied that. Tischendorf then took 43 leaves of the manuscript to London, and a few years later went back to get the rest, which the monks refused to give him. He promised if they would loan it to him he would bring it back, but never did bring it back, making Tischendorf a thief.

Wescott and Hort in England then got ahold of a copy of it, and used it in their new Greek translation of 1881. But back around 1850s, Simonides, the original author, saw the existing document that Tischendorf hadn't come for yet, and saw that it had been treated with something, like it looked older that just a few years that is really was.

Tischendorf in 1859 then presented the full Codex to the Czar of Russia who gave Tischendorf rights to publish it. Tischendorf produced a facsimile version which he took to England.

In 1860, Simonides visited England and saw a copy of Tischendorf's facsimile edition, and claimed publically that he was its author, which began a major uprising in the English newspapers, with Tischendorf claiming Simonides was telling lies.

Sorry, but the Codex Vaticanus and Sinaiticus is nothing but a HOAX.
 
Vaticanus 350 AD
Sinaiticus 350 AD
Alexandrinus 440 AD

your Textus Receptus 1516 AD
And since you try... to use that 1516 date for the Textus Receptus, that is based on the lie that Erasmus wrote it. He did not write it, nor create it. What he did was to PRINT it.

Here's more strong evidences against the 'oldest and best manuscripts' lie put out by the liberal higher critics:

There are powerful evidences that Simonides was telling the truth:

there is corroborating witness by Kalinikov, another Greek scholar, said he saw Simonides creating this Greek text known as Codex Sinaiticus. Then others also corroborated Kalinikov's testimony. Tischendorf said it was a lie, but Kalinikov was proven to exist, and all this was noted in the British press of that time.

there also is very powerful forensic evidence. An ancient document going back to the third or fourth century will show oxidation. All old ancient texts show oxidation, dark, almost bronze color. One can go online and look at photos of these ancient manuscripts. The Codex Sinaiticus is not bronze, nor tan, but off-white, not showing the oxidation of an ancient manuscript. In 1856, a Russian scholar Upinski went to university of Leipzig and asked to preview the Codex and said it was white parchment. In 1910, a German researcher, Ernest von Dobschutz and went to Lepzig and saw the document and said it was 'snow white parchment'. In 1913, a Scott J.M. Claymount went to view the document and said it was written on snow white velum.

The man who dated the Codex Sinaiticus was Tischendorf himself. All the suggestions that the Codex is ancient, all goes back only to Tischendorf.

It is expected that with ancient documents, there would be some wormholes. Problem with the Codex is that in some places, the text goes around... the wormhole. This goes against the idea that the Codex is ancient.

It has obvious mutilations on some pages. Hendrickson Publishers were allowed to photograph page by page with digital photography and can buy a copy (about $1000).

Simonides challenged Tischendorf for public debate, but Tischendorf refused. Simonides said he put in a number of places throughout the document in an acrostic that verifies he was the scribe. Every one of those pages have been mutilated and Simonides' marks have been removed. In some cases some pages show a scissor cut.

Dr. David Sorenson himself went to the British library and asked to see the ancient Codex Sinaiticus document, and after Sorenson had filled out all the necessary paperwork they refused to let him see it, saying the document was too valuable to allow everyone to see it. The facts were there had already been others in England that wrote a book about the Codex. Sorenson also asked them if they ever did a radio metrics test to see how old the document is, and they never answered his letter requesting that info.

Internal Evidence -- Sir James Donaldson, got his title around 1900 from the king of England because of his work in the field of British literary research. Donaldson evaluated Sinaiticus and said there are Greek words in Sinaiticus that exist in modern Greek, but not in the old 4th century Koine Greek. This reveals that Codex Sinaiticus is of recent origin.



Codex Vaticanus -- in 2015, the Vatican put a high full color digital photo of the Codex on the Internet. Every book begins with an initial drop-capital, a large capital full color fancy letter at the start of the chapter, produced at the same time as the main text. Problem - drop-caps were not invented until the middle ages.

Vaticanus was first recorded in the Vatican library in 1475. No other record of it prior to that exists. First historical record of anyone consulting Vaticanus is by Erasmus inquired of it in 1521.

The last 12 verses of The Book of Mark are missing in the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. Even the other Alexandrian manuscripts have those 12 verses in Mark. This reveals the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus were purposefully omitted. These last 12 verses deal with the resurrection. Rationalism and higher criticism took the position that the original Gospel was the Book of Mark. And the other Gospel Books were offshoots from Mark. And their premise was that Mark does not have the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 
No, there are only two TYPES of Greek manuscript texts. The Traditional text, which is about the Received Text, or Textus Receptus. And then the Critical text, which is about the Greek manuscripts that Wescott and Hort used for their new Greek translation of 1881, and then the Nestle-Aland and United Bible Societies critical text joined with Wescott and Hort's Greek translation.

Thusly:
1. Textus Receptus, or Received Text. (KJV, Douay-Rheims Bible, Noah Webster's Bible (1833), etc.
2. Critical text (Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, NU standing for Nestle-Aland and UBS translations), NIV, ESV, NKJV, ASV, etc., basically the modern versions I quoted in my post above that leave out the text of 1 John 5:7 about the Trinity.

90% of Codex Vaticanus is used for modern New Testament versions after the 1880s. About 8% comes from Codex Sinaiticus, and the rest is from other manuscripts sections the liberal critics add over time.

Codex Vaticanus was discovered in the Vatican in 1475, and has no documented origin prior to that. The higher critics behind the Critical text revisions instead try to say it is one of the most ancient Greek texts, which is a total fabrication.

Likewise, the Codex Sinaiticus only has a history going back to 1840. A Greek named Simonides who was a Greek paleographer expert at analyzing ancient Greek manuscripts, was at the monastery of St. Catherine's in Ethos, Greece. He was asked to make a new translation of the whole Bible, in order to present to the Czar of Russia in hopes the monastery might be given a donation to buy a printing press. Simonides did the work in haste which when done it required many corrections, so the actual manuscripts shows many, many, edits, and write-overs. The project thus failed, so they couldn't present it to the Czar.

Then later around 1844, the German rationalist Tischendorf in search of ancient Greek manuscripts in the middle east, because he believed the real New Testament had been lost, said he found the manuscript in a trash bin at St. Catherine's, in prep to be burned, even though those at the monastery denied that. Tischendorf then took 43 leaves of the manuscript to London, and a few years later went back to get the rest, which the monks refused to give him. He promised if they would loan it to him he would bring it back, but never did bring it back, making Tischendorf a thief.

Wescott and Hort in England then got ahold of a copy of it, and used it in their new Greek translation of 1881. But back around 1850s, Simonides, the original author, saw the existing document that Tischendorf hadn't come for yet, and saw that it had been treated with something, like it looked older that just a few years that is really was.

Tischendorf in 1859 then presented the full Codex to the Czar of Russia who gave Tischendorf rights to publish it. Tischendorf produced a facsimile version which he took to England.

In 1860, Simonides visited England and saw a copy of Tischendorf's facsimile edition, and claimed publically that he was its author, which began a major uprising in the English newspapers, with Tischendorf claiming Simonides was telling lies.

Sorry, but the Codex Vaticanus and Sinaiticus is nothing but a HOAX.
i add my source but you don't.
please add the source so i can verify. i've seen this before and several scholars have proven it to be a hoax itself.
 
this tells us that the Textus Receptus has ommitted and added over 1,000 words to the Bible and you think this is ok?

Many critics of the Textus Receptus and the King James Version have similar concepts, believing that the Received Text and versions based upon it are corrupt and add 1000's of words, whereas the position of those who hold that the versions based upon the Textus Receptus is that modern versions omit from the sacred text.

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