No worries brother. I try to help when I can!
in the tomb
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Agreed. I enjoy answering difficult questions simply and clearly. I am at heart just a simple, old country boy!
a answer is a answer no matter who answers
not on my end no 2 answers are the same i am straight to the point.. you like to go into great details one makes the cake the other puts on the icing... i cant seem get that message out around my neck of the words
What about the people from after the tower of Babel? Those who were not taught about God by their parents. As an example When Moses went to Pharaoh to set his people free, Pharaoh asked who YHVH was. He did not know of him. This suggests that there were people that had not heard of God during that time from after the tower to the time of Moses. I know there are those that knew of God during this same time such as Job and Abram. Why would these, who had not heard of God not be given a chance to accept or reject salvation?
That understanding is not impossible. However the meaning could be one of contempt rhetorical in nature. In other words, it is a refusal to acknowledge YHVH as one worthy of his attention. In Pharaoh's mind Moses' God was a nobody.
But Pharaoh said, “Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice and let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, and moreover, I will not let Israel go.” (Exo. 5:2)
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I will try to answer your excellent question. You may not like it but it is Biblical.
Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness. That is confirmed in Romans 4:3-8.
You see, the Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race. That is exactly why the spirits of the faithful saints in the Old Test. could not go to heaven until Jesus actually died and rose again! It was only then that their sins were wahed away instead of just being "covered" with animal blood.
Now then.......God’s requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 in that the Seed of the woman who would be Messiah Jesus, would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.
Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 & 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem.
You see, our salvation is actually based on CREDIT! The Old Test. saints believed in Messiah looking "forward" and we believe on Messiah Jesus looking "Backwards" but both are rooted in FAITH.
Now did the LOST who died not knowing about God go to hell?? YES! WHY?????
The testimony of Scripture is clear that all unconverted people are under the wrath of God. Paul writes, Romans 1:18......
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness” .
The verb “is revealed” is in the present tense. This means that at this very moment, wherever an unbeliever is on the earth – whether he has heard the gospel or not – he is already under divine wrath.
John 3:18 ........
" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Romans 1:20.........
"“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse”.
This of course opens the door to the Bible teaching that there in hell, there will be differing degrees of punishment based on the revelation of knowledge known.
Brother.....I have learned over the years that a straight to the point response usually leads to more questions. I can do that and many times I do, but to try and avoid those invariable questions that I know are coming by a short answer, I try and explain what I have said up front.
Then of course giving details comes from 50 years of preaching sermons. Point1, Point 2, Point 3 and so on.
Also....................... Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
This was right after Paul was converted and went to the gentiles. So how many of this groups ancestors died not knowing "The most high" or his son.
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
This was right after Paul was converted and went to the gentiles. So how many of this groups ancestors died not knowing "The most high" or his son.
Agree. There is a vast difference between knowing of God and "knowing" God.
When I read Exodus 2, I am struck by the simple reading of the text which to me implies that Pharaoh did not know who the God of the Israelites was, but he did know who the God of the Hebrews was. And unlike the God of the Israelites, Pharaoh had at least some level of respect for the God of the Hebrews.
No facts, Just my opinion.
I believe this answers my question about the people before Jesus came. Since Job, Abram and Jethro knew about God others could as well.
All,
I think what needs to be factored in here is Gods divine council (the watchers). They cannot be dismissed because it’s all through scripture. Probably the most elaborate example is Psalm 82 (see below).
That said people knew god or gods existed but maybe not the “Most High” God of Jacob/Israel. And that “through his Son” is the only way to salvation. God divided up the nations and his portion was Jacob Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (below). That’s where the Jewish became Gods “the Most High” chosen people.
Another thing is we HAVE to understand is Isaiah 55:8-9. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
He will work it out and we can’t possibly understand everything about the how.
Deuteronomy 32
8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of Adam,
he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the Lord’s portion is his people;
Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
Psalm
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
If this post irritates anyone, I'm sorry, Scooter
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It may be of interest to you that the Dead Sea Scrolls have "sons of God" (i.e. בני האלהים) while the Septuagint has "angels of God" (i.e. ἀγγέλων θεοῦ).
By far the best work on this topic is The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible by the excellent scholar Michael Heiser.
It does not irritate in any way. Some in the early church believed the same thing.
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Fully agree, I didn't put that because of controversy it may cause. Michael will be truly missed.
Take care, Scooter
It is really hard to offend me.
I would advice you that the word "Grigori", the word from the book of ENOCH is simply a transliteration of the Greek word for “watcher,” used in the Septuagint.
Now, that word ......."Grigori" is not found in Scripture in any translation.
I would advise anything found in ENOCH or any other Apocryphal book be rejected. Nevertheless, Scripture does affirm the concept of heavenly beings who watch the earth however, there is NO Scriptural evidence that they are part of ..."Gods divine council".
It should also be remembered that the Egyptians had many, may gods and the reference to a "High God" was the proper way of referring to God in that day.
That is a very good book. I highly recommend it. You can also find his lectures on the same. They are illuminating.
Yes and NO!
Hell/Torments is a place of punishment and it is eternal according to the Word of God.
There is absolutely no biblical support for the notion that after death people get another chance to repent or that there is a condition called Purgatory.
Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear that everyone dies physically and, after that, comes the judgment.
Now you and me as Christians have already been judged and sentenced. Jesus took that sentence upon Himself. Our sin becomes His and His righteousness becomes ours when we believe in Him. Because He took our just punishment, we need not fear ever being separated from Him again. In fact, the truly born again person is in heaven right now but has just not died yet.
The judgment for unbelievers is still to come. Those spirits of the dead lost are now in Torments in Sheol. AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15, Torments will be turned into the Lake of Fire.
Now the NO part of my answer come from the Scriptures in Luke 16. Those in hell will be cut off from God is to forfeit all exposure to anything good. Hell will be a state of perpetual sin; yet those suffering there will possess full understanding of sin’s horrors. Remorse, guilt, and shame will be unending, yet accompanied by the conviction that the punishment is just.
Luke 16:25 ........
“But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’
Those who wind up in hell eternally will be seperated from God and will REMEMBER all of the times that they heard about God and rejected Him. They will REMEMBER every sermon, every prayer, every song that mentioned God!
I think so as well. He makes a compelling case for his view.