in the tomb

[forgiven61]

I have always felt that he descended, as Origen points out, to express the fullness of his authority, but how would he best express that fullness? Would he gloat? I certainly doubt it. Would he appear in compassion? That more aligns with Christ's character as demonstrated in the gospels. So what would it means to appear in compassion? Only one answer comes to mind: reach out a hand with opportunity for forgiveness to any who choose to accept.

after death there has never been a 2nd chance salvation the rich man wanted someone to warn his family what hell was like in luke 16


27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

i really think the answer to our question will remain a mystery i do feel it was a proclamation ..possibly he showed himself i honestly dont know . i am pleased this has gone on for 2 pages .. most of the time post like this are DOA

 

[Origen]

exactly that would fall under purgatory teaching which is false

 

[forgiven61]

 

[LearningToLetGo]

I agree 100% but are you suggesting that if He did indeed descend to hell, then those in hell would have the opportunity to be forgiven by accepting Him?

That is what I implied, yes. I would hope that all be ultimately saved. I can't currently imagine paradise any other way.

 

[forgiven61]

I would hope that all be ultimately saved. I can't currently imagine paradise any other way.

He wants all to be saved not willing any perish.. But not all will be saved

 

[Major]

That is what I implied, yes. I would hope that all be ultimately saved. I can't currently imagine paradise any other way.

That is what is called "Universalism".

It is not Biblical and there is NO second chance to salvation. There is NO Purgatory and death closes to door of opportunity for all eternity.

That is why the Scriptures say......"Today is the day of salvation"!

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” .

 

[Scooter]

i dont have time for junk doctrine one thing we can bank on is john 11:25-26 psalms 103 Bless the Lord o my soul and forget not His benefits. had it not been for the cross our sins could not be forgiven had it not been for the resurrection we could not have eternal life

I totally agree he didn’t have to suffer, right before he died he proclaimed “It Is Finished” (I think) he descended to preach the Gospel to anyone that died prior to the age of grace. Which were probably mostly gentiles, but included any Jews under the law. Most Jews of that time were taught by the same religious leaders that Jesus rebuked “Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees”. So therefore were taught falsely “ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves”. I would think the average Jew would be under the same teaching.

He told Mary not to touch him because “I have not yet ascended to the Father”. I believe he meant bodily, his spirit was already there “Father into your hands I commit my spirit” and the reason he could tell the thief on the cross “today you will be with me in Paradise”.

Although I don’t believe he was ever without access to his spirit. There is something going on here I/we don’t yet understand. Another example is when he told his disciples “for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Possibly the answer lies in what we call (Quantum Entanglement)? That’s a different topic and way above my pay grade.

 

[Scooter]

That is what is called "Universalism".

It is not Biblical and there is NO second chance to salvation. There is NO Purgatory and death closes to door of opportunity for all eternity.

That is why the Scriptures say......"Today is the day of salvation"!

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” .

Hello Major,

I have a question.

Help me out here, my whole life I’ve been told more will be in hell than heaven. If its Gods will that none perish “As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live “ and “is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. Then you would have to accept God will ultimately not get his will. I have difficulty with that.

Secondly “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God”. Together with “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day “.

I can’t get this to work in my head. Because I don’t want anyone to perish either and also can’t imagine heaven without everyone.

 

[forgiven61]

Hello Major,

I have a question.

Help me out here, my whole life I’ve been told more will be in hell than heaven. If its Gods will that none perish “As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live “ and “is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. Then you would have to accept God will ultimately not get his will. I have difficulty with that.

Secondly “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God”. Together with “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day “.

I can’t get this to work in my head. Because I don’t want anyone to perish either and also can’t imagine heaven without everyone.

not major but i think we all have a struggle with this. me personally i hold to free will God gives us the choice we either accept or reject. in Calvinism / reformed theology they teach against the free will God gives the choice . all we can do is pray for them

 

[forgiven61]

christ died for all sinners yet we have pick and chose what we post is sin

 

[Scooter]

not major but i think we all have a struggle with this. me personally i hold to free will God gives us the choice we either accept or reject. in Calvinism / reformed theology they teach against the free will God gives the choice . all we can do is pray for them

Thanks Forgiven61,

Can you help me out on this. The Bible says “Blessed are they in the first resurrection over which the second death has no power”. After the millennial reign the second resurrection for the unsaved and the release of satan to deceive the world once again. What am I missing here? It seems releasing satan after the 1000 years would not be necessary. First, because the second death has no power over those in the millennial reign. Secondly, the people in the second resurrection are doomed anyway. This is another mystery for me.

 

[forgiven61]

Thanks Forgiven61,

Can you help me out on this. The Bible says “Blessed are they in the first resurrection over which the second death has no power”. After the millennial reign the second resurrection for the unsaved and the release of satan to deceive the world once again. What am I missing here? It seems releasing satan after the 1000 years would not be necessary. First, because the second death has no power over those in the millennial reign. Secondly, the people in the second resurrection are doomed anyway. This is another mystery for me.

this is for all those who rejected Christ those truly born again death has no power when Christ resurrected he defeated death and the grave John 11
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
they had there Chance we serve a God of 2nd and 3rd chances while we are alive . after we die there is no more 2nd chance
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” .

Matthew 24:14​

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end com


once again there are many things i fail to understand also

 

[Scooter]

this is for all those who rejected Christ those truly born again death has no power when Christ resurrected he defeated death and the grave John 11
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
they had there Chance we serve a God of 2nd and 3rd chances while we are alive . after we die there is no more 2nd chance
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” .

Matthew 24:14​

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end com


once again there are many things i fail to understand also

I suppose that is the purpose of Faith.

Thanks my friend

 

[Major]

Hello Major,

I have a question.

Help me out here, my whole life I’ve been told more will be in hell than heaven. If its Gods will that none perish “As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live “ and “is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. Then you would have to accept God will ultimately not get his will. I have difficulty with that.

Secondly “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God”. Together with “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day “.

I can’t get this to work in my head. Because I don’t want anyone to perish either and also can’t imagine heaven without everyone.

Thank you for asking me such an excellent question. Happy and blessed Easter day to you!

My dear friend, God's will, will be accomplished. May I say with all respect and love, to interpret “not willing that any should perish” as “does not allow any to perish” results in the false doctrine of universalism.

I hope that you can grasp the fact that God can “not desire” or have a will that anyone should perish and still only elect some to salvation. There is nothing incongruous about that.

Remember that God did not desire for sin to enter the world through the fall of Adam and Eve, yet He allowed it.
In fact, it was part of His sovereign plan. God did not desire His only begotten Son to be betrayed, brutally tortured, and murdered, yet He allowed it. This, too, was part of God’s sovereign plan.

In the same way, God does not desire anyone to perish. He desires all to come to repentance. God wants everyone to come to Christ and be save, however At the same time, God recognizes that not everyone will come to repentance by accepting Jesus as the Christ!

It is undeniable that more will perish in hell then live in heaven as seen in Matthe 7. However, rather than being a contradiction to 2 Peter 3:9, God’s electing and drawing of some to salvation is evidence that He truly does not desire people to perish.

Were it not for election and the effectual calling of God, everyone would perish.

Now, I do not think that anyone wants anyone to go to hell! I know that I do not. However, that is exactly what is going to happen.
That does not mean that God is mean or vindictive.

You see my friend, life can end at any moment and there are only two options, heaven or hell! Each person urgently needs to come to faith in Christ as soon as possible. This begins with faith in Jesus Christ as their personal choice.

Freedom of choice is what God has given us. We are saved by faith in "hearing the Word of God". Then we have a choice!

 

[Major]

Thanks Forgiven61,

Can you help me out on this. The Bible says “Blessed are they in the first resurrection over which the second death has no power”. After the millennial reign the second resurrection for the unsaved and the release of satan to deceive the world once again. What am I missing here? It seems releasing satan after the 1000 years would not be necessary. First, because the second death has no power over those in the millennial reign. Secondly, the people in the second resurrection are doomed anyway. This is another mystery for me.

You did not ask me but I would like to give you the answer.

Every motal human who lives through the 7 year Tribulation and goes into the 1000 year rule of Christ will be born again. They will have children and here is the *Key*.....those children will have to make the same choice for Christ as did their parents BUT the "temper", Satan has been locked up in the Abyss.

He must be released so as to TEMP those children to sin just as he did their parents. WHY????????
Acts 10:34..........
"So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality".

IF...IF those children, born in perfectness of the 1000 year rule were not tempted by Satan, then Acts 10:34 would make God a liar!

 

[Major]

I totally agree he didn’t have to suffer, right before he died he proclaimed “It Is Finished” (I think) he descended to preach the Gospel to anyone that died prior to the age of grace. Which were probably mostly gentiles, but included any Jews under the law. Most Jews of that time were taught by the same religious leaders that Jesus rebuked “Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees”. So therefore were taught falsely “ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves”. I would think the average Jew would be under the same teaching.

He told Mary not to touch him because “I have not yet ascended to the Father”. I believe he meant bodily, his spirit was already there “Father into your hands I commit my spirit” and the reason he could tell the thief on the cross “today you will be with me in Paradise”.

Although I don’t believe he was ever without access to his spirit. There is something going on here I/we don’t yet understand. Another example is when he told his disciples “for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Possibly the answer lies in what we call (Quantum Entanglement)? That’s a different topic and way above my pay grade.

Scooter......Now think about what you are saying.

You said..........
"he descended to preach the Gospel to anyone that died prior to the age of grace."

WHY????

If they were demons, they can NOT BE SAVED.
IF they are the spirits of the lost who have died, they can not at that time accept Christ because they are dead.
So then, Jesus preaching the gospel makes absolutely NO common sense.

When Mary was told to "Do not touch Me".....In John 20:17, the word translated “touch” is a Greek word which means “to cling to, to lay hold of.” This wasn’t just a touch; it was a grip. Obviously, when Mary recognized Jesus, she immediately clung to Him.

Obviously, Mary is overwhelmed by the events of the morning, and as her grief turns to joy, she naturally embraces Jesus. She had lost Him once, and she was going to make sure she didn’t lose Him again—she wanted to keep Jesus with her always. However, Jesus knew that He had to ascend to the Father.

As far as the Holy Spirit coming. He could not come to indwell with Jesus still on the earth. Jesus had to depart for the HS to impart as they are TWO persons in the God head.

 

[Major]

I totally agree he didn’t have to suffer, right before he died he proclaimed “It Is Finished” (I think) he descended to preach the Gospel to anyone that died prior to the age of grace. Which were probably mostly gentiles, but included any Jews under the law. Most Jews of that time were taught by the same religious leaders that Jesus rebuked “Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees”. So therefore were taught falsely “ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves”. I would think the average Jew would be under the same teaching.

He told Mary not to touch him because “I have not yet ascended to the Father”. I believe he meant bodily, his spirit was already there “Father into your hands I commit my spirit” and the reason he could tell the thief on the cross “today you will be with me in Paradise”.

Although I don’t believe he was ever without access to his spirit. There is something going on here I/we don’t yet understand. Another example is when he told his disciples “for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Possibly the answer lies in what we call (Quantum Entanglement)? That’s a different topic and way above my pay grade.

You said......
"I totally agree he didn’t have to suffer,............".

But He did my dear friend. He had to so as to fullfill the Word of God.

Isaiah 52:14......
"As many were astonished at you—his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind…".
Psalms 22:14-18............
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me on the dust of death.
For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
They have pierced my hands and feet—
I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.


The only Scripture that gives a hard and fast reason as to why Jesus had to suffer is Isaiah 53:10-12..........

Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many
and makes intercession for the transgressors."

So, Jesus had to suffer because it was God's will. Not that Jesus' physical pain was necessary for salvation—"Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied" refers to Jesus' emotional pain when He was separated from God. But we can see what benefit it has on us.

 

[Major]

Hello Major,

I have a question.

Help me out here, my whole life I’ve been told more will be in hell than heaven. If its Gods will that none perish “As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live “ and “is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. Then you would have to accept God will ultimately not get his will. I have difficulty with that.

Secondly “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God”. Together with “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day “.

I can’t get this to work in my head. Because I don’t want anyone to perish either and also can’t imagine heaven without everyone.

Thank you for asking me such an excellent question. Happy and blessed Easter day to you!

My dear friend, God's will, will be accomplished. May I say with all respect and love, to interpret “not willing that any should perish” as “does not allow any to perish” results in the false doctrine of universalism.

I hope that you can grasp the fact that God can “not desire” or have a will that anyone should perish and still only elect some to salvation. There is nothing incongruous about that.

Remember that God did not desire for sin to enter the world through the fall of Adam and Eve, yet He allowed it.
In fact, it was part of His sovereign plan. God did not desire His only begotten Son to be betrayed, brutally tortured, and murdered, yet He allowed it. This, too, was part of God’s sovereign plan.

In the same way, God does not desire anyone to perish. He desires all to come to repentance. God wants everyone to come to Christ and be save, however At the same time, God recognizes that not everyone will come to repentance by accepting Jesus as the Christ!

It is undeniable that more will perish in hell then live in heaven as seen in Matthe 7. However, rather than being a contradiction to 2 Peter 3:9, God’s electing and drawing of some to salvation is evidence that He truly does not desire people to perish.

Were it not for election and the effectual calling of God, everyone would perish.

 

[Scooter]

Thank you for asking me such an excellent question. Happy and blessed Easter day to you!

My dear friend, God's will, will be accomplished. May I say with all respect and love, to interpret “not willing that any should perish” as “does not allow any to perish” results in the false doctrine of universalism.

I hope that you can grasp the fact that God can “not desire” or have a will that anyone should perish and still only elect some to salvation. There is nothing incongruous about that.

Remember that God did not desire for sin to enter the world through the fall of Adam and Eve, yet He allowed it.
In fact, it was part of His sovereign plan. God did not desire His only begotten Son to be betrayed, brutally tortured, and murdered, yet He allowed it. This, too, was part of God’s sovereign plan.

In the same way, God does not desire anyone to perish. He desires all to come to repentance. God wants everyone to come to Christ and be save, however At the same time, God recognizes that not everyone will come to repentance by accepting Jesus as the Christ!

It is undeniable that more will perish in hell then live in heaven as seen in Matthe 7. However, rather than being a contradiction to 2 Peter 3:9, God’s electing and drawing of some to salvation is evidence that He truly does not desire people to perish.

Were it not for election and the effectual calling of God, everyone would perish.

Thank you Major

That is the best description of election I've ever heard. Its one of the times when you said that different enough that it clicked. The question on Gods will I kind of thought that way. Its similar to....................I think it was C.S. Lewis who said there are things that God can't do. Like make free will people that will all listen to and Love him.

You have a great Resurrection Day

 

[Scooter]

You said......
"I totally agree he didn’t have to suffer,............".

But He did my dear friend. He had to so as to fullfill the Word of God.

Isaiah 52:14......
"As many were astonished at you—his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind…".
Psalms 22:14-18............
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me on the dust of death.
For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
They have pierced my hands and feet—
I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.


The only Scripture that gives a hard and fast reason as to why Jesus had to suffer is Isaiah 53:10-12..........

Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many
and makes intercession for the transgressors."

So, Jesus had to suffer because it was God's will. Not that Jesus' physical pain was necessary for salvation—"Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied" refers to Jesus' emotional pain when He was separated from God. But we can see what benefit it has on us.

Hello Major,

Sorry, I was referring to suffering torment in hell. My fault for not being more clear. I realize what he did on the cross. I often think those who were around Jesus had an easier time believing. However over the years I've changed my mind. Can you imagine seeing what he went through, and all on our behalf. How can you not Love someone like that?

Thanks for your explanation