ONE HUNDRED AND FORTYFOUR THOUSAND

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Major

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Revelation 14:1..........
"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. "
I would say that everyone here has heard or had a Jehovah Witness come to their door. However, are we all aware of their Doctrinal position on the 144 thousand???
The Witnesses say these people represent the Church of Christ, the Israel of God, and this is a common view among Bible scholars, one that has had a long history in the interpretation of Revelation. That is called "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY" and simply said, it is the idea that the church has replaced Israel.
The 144,000 are taken as a symbol of the Christian faithful. It is what Witnesses say next that is bizarre.

Supposedly God began collecting the 144,000 at Pentecost in A.D. 33 but stopped collecting them in 1935, when the full number was reached. Some of the 144,000 are still living, and they are all Jehovah’s Witnesses. As of 1986 there were only about 9,000 of the 144,000 left alive. Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses are a larger group, possessing several million members, how are the rest of the Witnesses regarded? As non-members of the body of Christ. They will still be saved in the end, but they will not be part of the body and will not go to heaven. They are considered part of the “great crowd” mentioned in Revelation 7:9-10.

Now, If they actually read the Bible and were consistent, they would have to conclude that the 144,000 are all Jews, drawn equally from the twelve tribes of Israel (most of which are now unrecognizably lost), that they are all male virgins who do not lie and who have two names literally written on their foreheads. The problem is that none of the 9,000 Witnesses supposed to be members of this group fit this description. Most all of them are married to Gentile women with children, and they presumably have bent the truth more than a few times in their lives.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
12 * 12 = 144

The number 12 pops up a lot in the Bible. I'm pretty sure it has meaning beyond simply its integer value.
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YES it does. The meaning of the number 12 in Scripture is God’s perfect rule through human agency or government. We see that meaning reflected in 12 apostles and 12 tribes of Israel.

I produced a Bible Study on Bible numbers and what they mean about 30 years ago.

Watch this........The Hebrew word nuach, Strong's #H5117, occurs 144 times in the Hebrew Old Testament.
144 is equal to 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 (or 2 to the fourth power) x 3 x 3 (or 3 squared). It is also equal to 12 x 12 (or 12 squared) as well as equaling the addition of two consecutive primes (71 + 73).
 
Revelation is a mix of both literal and symbolic contexts. The principles of hermeneutics uses the immediate context to determine whether a text is to be interpreted literally or figuratively. The context specifically identifies the 144,000 as Jewish believers.
 
crossnote said:
Just think, 144,000 Jewish Jehovah Witnesses :)
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I’ve met 3 Jehovah witnesses that lay claim to being part of the 144000. 1 male 2 female . All i could think of at the time when mentioned was perpetual virginity like Mary. More so in regards to them all being married and having children. That didn’t seem to go down to well. The comment was little bit to Catholic for them to stomach. But they enjoyed my dumplings and coffee very much and promised to visit again which they do from time to time.
 
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BibleLover said:
Revelation is a mix of both literal and symbolic contexts. The principles of hermeneutics uses the immediate context to determine whether a text is to be interpreted literally or figuratively. The context specifically identifies the 144,000 as Jewish believers.
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interesting point. If true and if we be talking about literal Jews . How could anyone prove considering all the temple records were destroyed in 70 AD. Anyone could lay claim to that by merely just claiming to be a literal Jew. And of course there be the matter of circumcision where male babies are sucked off by the rabbi for healing purposes from their saliva. Would that make many still virgins ?
 
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Prim90 said:
interesting point. If true and if we be talking about literal Jews . How could anyone prove considering all the temple records were destroyed in 70 AD. Anyone could lay claim to that by merely just claiming to be a literal Jew. And of course there be the matter of circumcision where male babies are sucked off by the rabbi for healing purposes from their saliva. Would that make many still virgins ?
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Hello Prim90;

Pray tell, where did you come across the circumcision healing process, suggesting or resulting in still virgins?

It's interesting how you come up with these findings which goes to show this proves the ancient, Old and New
Testaments are never ending with information.

I could see you having tea with the Early Church Fathers and Eusebius choking on his crumpet. 😎👍 lol!

I'd have to research this circumcision healing process further on my own because it intrigues me.

God bless you, sister.








 
bobinfaith said:
Hello Prim90;

Pray tell, where did you come across the circumcision healing process, suggesting or resulting in still virgins?

It's interesting how you come up with these findings which goes to show this proves the ancient, Old and New
Testaments are never ending with information.

I could see you having tea with the Early Church Fathers and Eusebius choking on his crumpet. 😎👍lol!

I'd have to research this circumcision healing process further on my own because it intrigues me.

God bless you, sister.






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Bob as far as I can trace. The procedure goes back to the Jewish Talmud. I’m not sure whether the Jerusalem Talmud 200 AD or the Babylonian Talmud 500 AD. Both claim to be a commentary of the oral Law going back to the time of Moses in some of the many volumes. IMG_4105.jpegThe section be on the practice of circumcision. It’s called Metzitzah b’ peh. Or oral suction. It was process to suck the blood from the the newly circumcised infant genitals by the Rabbi with his saliva acting as a disinfectant to stop infection but still sexual in nature nether the less. The custom is still practiced by some of the Jewish faith until this very day. Some would make the claim that this makes some Jews no virgins at all depending on how you view a virgin of course. Just another interesting aspect to the alleged 144000 thousand Jewish virgin mystery along with trying to prove who is physically Jewish considering that all the temple genealogy’s were destroyed at the Temple in 70 AD
 
Revelation 14:4
These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Just a thought. Sex itself does not defile a person. We all know that it was introduced in the Garden of Eden and was blessed by God. I think the key to the verse here is 'defiled'. I think it's use here is odd.

Could it be it speaks of men that haven't committed adultery, fornication, etc? Married men who have used the gift of sex properly and not abused it? I don't know. Here's the word in the Strongs Concordance:

Greek: παρθένος
Transliteration: parthenos
Pronunciation: par-then'-os
Definition: Of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter: - virgin.
KJV Usage: virgin (14x).
Occurs: 14
In verses: 13

To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of that. The verse does say "virgins" and that does seem somewhat specific. I believe it was Adrian Rogers I was listening to on YouTube and he doesn't seem to think it's speaking of actual "virgins". Like I said, just a thought. Not sure if it matters either way.
 
Lets read the Scriptures in Rev. 7:5-8........

" And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."

I understand that the numbers in apocalyptic literature are regularly symbolic. Here in Rev. 7 and in 14 we have the number twelve representing the people of God from the twelve tribes in the OT, and the number is squared and then multiplied by 1,000. Hence the
argument that the number should be understood as a symbolic way of designating the entire people of God.

However, that is NOT what the Scriptures actually say. The Scriptures identify this group as Jewish, virgin, men. To then say that they represent the Christians of all ages because we as Christians are grafted into the Jewish root is adding to the Word of God what we want it to say instead of accepting it as it is actually written.

"When does the calling of Christians to a heavenly hope cease?"

That is a quote from The Watchtower of the JW"S. Since the JW'S witnesses are NOT Christians, that question simply does not apply to them. God calls all people to be saved by accepting Jesus as the Christ up to the moment of death.
 
Prim90 said:
interesting point. If true and if we be talking about literal Jews . How could anyone prove considering all the temple records were destroyed in 70 AD. Anyone could lay claim to that by merely just claiming to be a literal Jew. And of course there be the matter of circumcision where male babies are sucked off by the rabbi for healing purposes from their saliva. Would that make many still virgins ?
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Point taken, but nothing is impossible for God.
 
Prim90 said:
interesting point. If true and if we be talking about literal Jews . How could anyone prove considering all the temple records were destroyed in 70 AD. Anyone could lay claim to that by merely just claiming to be a literal Jew. And of course there be the matter of circumcision where male babies are sucked off by the rabbi for healing purposes from their saliva. Would that make many still virgins ?
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What "we" know and what God knows are worlds apart sister.

You said.........
"And of course there be the matter of circumcision where male babies are sucked off by the rabbi for healing purposes from their saliva. "

WHAT?????

That whole post needs to be deleted!!!!
 
drequeen said:
Revelation 14:4
These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Just a thought. Sex itself does not defile a person. We all know that it was introduced in the Garden of Eden and was blessed by God. I think the key to the verse here is 'defiled'. I think it's use here is odd.

Could it be it speaks of men that haven't committed adultery, fornication, etc? Married men who have used the gift of sex properly and not abused it? I don't know. Here's the word in the Strongs Concordance:

Greek: παρθένος
Transliteration: parthenos
Pronunciation: par-then'-os
Definition: Of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter: - virgin.
KJV Usage: virgin (14x).
Occurs: 14
In verses: 13

To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of that. The verse does say "virgins" and that does seem somewhat specific. I believe it was Adrian Rogers I was listening to on YouTube and he doesn't seem to think it's speaking of actual "virgins". Like I said, just a thought. Not sure if it matters either way.
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NO. IT means exactly what it says.......Men, Jewish, Virgins.
 
Prim90 said:
I’ve met 3 Jehovah witnesses that lay claim to being part of the 144000. 1 male 2 female . All i could think of at the time when mentioned was perpetual virginity like Mary. More so in regards to them all being married and having children. That didn’t seem to go down to well. The comment was little bit to Catholic for them to stomach. But they enjoyed my dumplings and coffee very much and promised to visit again which they do from time to time.
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2 John 1:10​


“If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
 
 
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