The judgment seat of Christ: Dividing wheat from tares by works.

[forgiven61]

I apologize. Didn't mean to confuse anyone. Actually, Yes.....The judgment of nations and the sheep & goats Judgment are the same event.

i dont ask for apologizes i am in agreement with you on the judgement of nation .. i been speaking of the wheats and tares math 13


and we are in full agreement

Then In Revelation 20:4-15, we see that there are two resurrections – for dead people. At the end of Revelation 19:20-2, we find that living persons who received the mark of the beast and who worshipped his image will be immediately judged. This is the time of the Sheep and Goat judgment will occur.

 

[Godhelpus]

I like the term "Make-believers". There are those, who, profess to be Christian but their attitudes and deeds say otherwise.

This is certainly true by Scripture, however, with the subject at hand, it begs the question: Who makes this judgment between believers and make-believers, that confess Jesus Christ? Do we make that judgment, or the Lord?

Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

It's only the Lord that judges people naming His name by deeds. And so, where and when does He do that? If not at His Judgment seat, where we must all stand to give account of our deeds, then where?

Is there some Scripture, that plainly says the make-believers are not judged at His seat, when everyone else naming His name are?

And why are both good and bad deeds mentioned at His judgment seat?

 

[forgiven61]

This is why the thief of the cross example fails for me... he wasn't baptized because he literally could not be. The exception can't also be the rule. This view of baptism is always under extreme circumstances. I'm talking about the person who just doesn't want to or is putting it off for years and years. Someone who can't be baptized is different from someone who won't be baptized

water baptism does not save .. you can be in car wreck just minutes away from passing away being dead.. you can call upon Jesus ask forgiveness your saved..

 

[Godhelpus]

Bob.........You said.---
"why haven't we reached a common ground in this discussion?"

Because we are all sinners.
Because we are all stubborn.
Because we like what we know even if what we know is wrong = Bias.
Because some of us have personal opinions that are ingrained = Agenda.

Now, consider that you are in a church meeting and one person says.....I think the Holy Spirit is telling us to use drums.
Another church member says.....I think the Holy Spirit is telling us to use organs and pianos.
Who is right? Is one person more in tuned with God that the other one?

Of course you are going to say that we must consider the Scriptures and see what they say to us. I agree that the church is a creature that feeds upon and finds life in God’s Word. And we should hold fast to this truth.

Cordial discussions uselly lead to productive insights where there is growth and learning that takes place.

However, there’s often dead ends that happen in discussions about differences in biblical interpretation, which is what we see on forums all the time. That is always what happens particularly around contentious issues. You reach an impasse on a particular point simply because the litigators are.....
All are Sinners.
All are stubborn.
All of us like what we know.
All of us have personal opinions.

So then, sometimes that’s where the conversation ends. There comes a point in time when the conversation turns to "contentious" and that is where the moderators earn their high salary by deciding to shut down a topic of discussion.

Just a personal opinion that I am sharing and there is no need to send me a love offering on this.

I agree with this, because Scripture exhorts us not to endlessly debate things. To me the rule is simple. When we begin just repeating ourselves, then we're talking to walls, not open ears. Unless something new is brought in, then I simply move on.

In rare cases, if a charge of false doctrine and gospel is made, then I shut down immediately. Since the door is not only closed, but shut in the face. Scripture teaches us that if we really believe someone is giving false doctrine, then we ought just say goodbye:

2Jo 1:9 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

 

[forgiven61]

I am sorry to hear that.

The judgment of the nations is seen in Matthew 25:31-46. That is too much to post but the essence is in vers 31 & 32....
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne; And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goat."

Maybe you did not realize that This judgment, Judgment of The Nations is also called the judgment of The Sheep and The Goats.

After the tribulation, the Lord Jesus will sit in judgment over the Gentile nations. They will be judged according to their treatment of Israel during the tribulation. Those who showed faith in God by treating Israel favorably (giving them aid and comfort during the tribulation) are the “sheep” who will enter into the Millennial Kingdom. Those who followed the Antichrist’s lead and persecuted Israel are the “goats” who will be consigned to hell.

this has nothing to do with chapter 13 i throw up the white flag not in defeat .. but as in this is getting no place why you keep jumping the chapter 25 .. is beyond me i have tried to stay on course with wheat and tares . you keep jumping to the judgment of nations .. here is the facts if one is truly saved none of this hold my hand repeat after me i do solemnly say. then live happily there after salvation ... i have seen that head salvation .. the lost will have to fear judgment ..those truly saved romans 10:10 has nothing to fear other than we should reverence God ya all can have this after 7 pages of repeats including me. i am out

 

[Godhelpus]

You said, speaking of Dr. Billy Graham.........
"His conclusion is that there will be those at Jesus' judgment seat, who have denied Him, and so will be rejected by Him as unbelievers."

I am asking you to please the post the source of that comment.

Posted by someone else:

"One of the Bible’s greatest truths is that when we turn to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith, God forgives our sins and gives us the gift of eternal life. We no longer need to fear death or Hell or judgment, because Christ endured them for us. As the Bible says, “He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

At the same time, the Bible tells us that some day each of us will stand before God. If we have denied Him and refused to follow Him, we will be judged for our unbelief. God will say, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). These are sobering words, and they should make every one of us stop and be sure of our commitment to Christ."

He includes all believers appearing at the Lord's Bema seat, where some may be judged for unbelief. He does not say unbelievers will stand at His seat, but that some confessing believers will be rejected for unbelief, by works that deny Him...

This is a Scriptural teaching, since some do profess faith in Christ, but deny Him by works. Also, there are the believers calling Him Lord, that also will be rejected by their works of iniquity.

You see, there will be NO unbelievers at the Bema Seat Judgment. All those people who denied Christ were left behind at the Rapture.

Well of course not. I don't believe I've ever heard any Christian suggesting that the unbelievers will appear at the judgment seat of Christ. We're not talking about unbelievers, but only about believers that confess faith in Jesus Christ.

NO ONE who has heard the gospel and denied Jesus as the Christ can be saved after the Rapture

Once again, of course not. Unless we repent and believe His gospel, no man can be saved.

Mark{1:15} The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Nor will they appear at His Bema Seat. Paul only speaks of 'we' the believers that confess Christ.

I'm really not understanding why you've brought in unbelievers into the doctrine of Jesus Christ's judgment seat? No one has said anyone not believing Jesus is the Christ, nor His gospel, will appear there...

so therefore there can not be any who have denied Jesus at the Bema Seat. It will only be for born again believers.

I think I see now. You must mean the 'make-believers' that confess faith in Christ, but in works deny Him. You're calling them 'unbelievers', and they won't be at His Bema judgment. Only the faithful believers that acknowledge Him by works will appear.

Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

So I disagree, and apparently along with Billy Graham. Once again, why are there bad deeds mentions, and not only the good, if only the good believers are there?

Also, I acknowledge anyone confessing Jesus Christ as a fellow believer and Christian. Don't you? And so, all believers naming Christ will stand at His judgment seat, with some judged by works of unbelief. Jesus never called them 'unbelievers', but rather bad servants and workers of iniquity.

Do you have any Scripture where the Lord calls anyone confessing His name an 'unbeliever'? Or, any Scripture showing where other than His judgment seat, He Himself makes the separation between believers and 'make-believers' naming His name?

Why can't the Lord choose to judge them at His Bema seat? Who says He can't? Afterall, once again, it can't be denied that there certainly will be bad works mentioned there. Who are those bad works accounted for, if not for them confessing faith in Him, but denying Him by works?

 

[Godhelpus]

Water baptism is an act of faith (work) and is a necessary step in the salvation process.

A step? There are more? Like flesh circumcision?

Act 15:1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Early Christian history teaches baptism. For the remission of sins.

It's never full proof to rely solely upon a word translation. The word can be translated by remission of sins. And so, by being forgiven, we can now be baptized with water in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. That's the nature of Phillip baptizing the Ethiopian, where his confession of whole-hearted faith in Jesus Christ, allows him to be baptized:

Act 8:36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Water baptism is a privilege of saving faith, not a saving work. Context of all Scripture is the only way to rightly teach it. There are also examples of some confessing Jesus Christ, who only had John's water baptism, and so Paul gave them Jesus Christ's baptism. The Scripture says nothing about becoming forgiven and saved by the baptism.

Then there's Pauls' curious declaration that he purposely did not baptize new believers in Corinth, nor was he sent by the Lord to do so, but only to preach the gospel of faith in Jesus Christ. Was he going to leave them unforgiven and unsaved on purpose? He did not say that he had someone else do the baptizing. No doubt they were baptized by someone at some time, but not immediately by Paul who first preached the gospel to them.

If water baptism is necessary to be saved, sort of like flesh circumcision, then any delay is dangerous to the soul. And so it is with all works preached to be saved by, faith and confession from the heart in Jesus Christ becomes useless to save the soul, during the 'interim' of works. There's becomes a dangerous 'time lapse' after believing and receiving Christ, which is by hearing, not by working:

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

J
It can't be that the people who knew the people who knew Jesus got it wrong for a 1000+ years. They also have instruction for infant baptism in the Didache (70AD), less than 40yrs after Christ's death.

Didache? You've lost me there.

50yrs after the death of John the Apostle 》》ca. 150 A.D., Hermas, brother of Pope Saint Pius I, The Shepherd
— Remission of sins; born again through Baptism —

The Pope the Shepherd, I have not heard of, but Jesus Christ the Bishop and Shepherd of my soul, I have:

1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Jesus is the only one that's worthy of the capital Shepherd.

1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Mandate 4:3:1 “I have heard, sir,” said I, “from some teachers, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.” He said to me, “You have heard rightly, for so it is. …“They had need,” [the shepherd] said, “to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who had fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the kingdom of God.

21 Centuries — Behold The Truth

www.beholdthetruth.com

Mandate 4:3:1? Lost me again.

I'm aware of many efforts by would be prophets and apostles trying to sound like Scripture, in order to give their stuff some theological heft, as though that's supposed to help make it true.

Joseph Smith was reasonably good at it, with a little help from his angel friend Moroni...

Gal 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[Major]

Posted by someone else:

"One of the Bible’s greatest truths is that when we turn to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith, God forgives our sins and gives us the gift of eternal life. We no longer need to fear death or Hell or judgment, because Christ endured them for us. As the Bible says, “He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

At the same time, the Bible tells us that some day each of us will stand before God. If we have denied Him and refused to follow Him, we will be judged for our unbelief. God will say, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). These are sobering words, and they should make every one of us stop and be sure of our commitment to Christ."

He includes all believers appearing at the Lord's Bema seat, where some may be judged for unbelief. He does not say unbelievers will stand at His seat, but that some confessing believers will be rejected for unbelief, by works that deny Him...

This is a Scriptural teaching, since some do profess faith in Christ, but deny Him by works. Also, there are the believers calling Him Lord, that also will be rejected by their works of iniquity.

Well of course not. I don't believe I've ever heard any Christian suggesting that the unbelievers will appear at the judgment seat of Christ. We're not talking about unbelievers, but only about believers that confess faith in Jesus Christ.




Once again, of course not. Unless we repent and believe His gospel, no man can be saved.

Mark{1:15} The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Nor will they appear at His Bema Seat. Paul only speaks of 'we' the believers that confess Christ.

I'm really not understanding why you've brought in unbelievers into the doctrine of Jesus Christ's judgment seat? No one has said anyone not believing Jesus is the Christ, nor His gospel, will appear there...



I think I see now. You must mean the 'make-believers' that confess faith in Christ, but in works deny Him. You're calling them 'unbelievers', and they won't be at His Bema judgment. Only the faithful believers that acknowledge Him by works will appear.

Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

So I disagree, and apparently along with Billy Graham. Once again, why are there bad deeds mentions, and not only the good, if only the good believers are there?

Also, I acknowledge anyone confessing Jesus Christ as a fellow believer and Christian. Don't you? And so, all believers naming Christ will stand at His judgment seat, with some judged by works of unbelief. Jesus never called them 'unbelievers', but rather bad servants and workers of iniquity.

Do you have any Scripture where the Lord calls anyone confessing His name an 'unbeliever'? Or, any Scripture showing where other than His judgment seat, He Himself makes the separation between believers and 'make-believers' naming His name?

Why can't the Lord choose to judge them at His Bema seat? Who says He can't? Afterall, once again, it can't be denied that there certainly will be bad works mentioned there. Who are those bad works accounted for, if not for them confessing faith in Him, but denying Him by works?

You did NOT post the source of your claim concerning Dr. Graham.

You said.........."Posted by someone else".---That is unacceptable my friend.!!!

You said.......
"I think I see now. You must mean the 'make-believers' that confess faith in Christ, but in works deny Him. You're calling them 'unbelievers', and they won't be at His Bema judgment. Only the faithful believers that acknowledge Him by works will appear."

Of course that is what I meant. That is why I posted the words from God in Matthew 7. HE is the one who said that those people were never saved to begin with.

Listen my dear friend........I am sure that you mean well and I hope that on another topic we can be on the same page, however Your
x-Oneness theology is very taxing and with all due respect, this conversation is not a productive thread and at this time I am going to withdraw from it.

May the Lord bless you my friend.

 

[Major]

this has nothing to do with chapter 13 i throw up the white flag not in defeat .. but as in this is getting no place why you keep jumping the chapter 25 .. is beyond me i have tried to stay on course with wheat and tares . you keep jumping to the judgment of nations .. here is the facts if one is truly saved none of this hold my hand repeat after me i do solemnly say. then live happily there after salvation ... i have seen that head salvation .. the lost will have to fear judgment ..those truly saved romans 10:10 has nothing to fear other than we should reverence God ya all can have this after 7 pages of repeats including me. i am out

Well....no one can say I do not try.

I am sorry that you do not understand what I said which was the Wheat and Tares Judgment is the same event as the Judgment of the Nations.

Honestly brother, Look at your post, I have no idea what you are saying except............i am out!

I agree and Be well my friend and may the Lord bless you.

 

[forgiven61]

John's water baptism, and so Paul gave them Jesus Christ's baptism.

johns baptism was external Christ baptism is eternal

 

[forgiven61]

Honestly brother, Look at your post, I have no idea what you are saying except............i am out!

lol i have used grace with you and carefully worded with grace.. but it seems your bent on being the authorize one in this forum... BTW i do know what i am talking about contrary to what you or anyone else thinks . i fully understood what your saying i found nothing tieing wheat and tares in to judgement of nations ..i have read it carefully compared to jay mcgee and we both line up.. along with other studies ..


dont be so quick to point me out in error the only thing 13 and 25 have in common is judgement

Well....no one can say I do not try.

do your self a favor don't hurt your arm patting your self on the back . i truly do not like being this way .. i figure my post will be removed due to kicking over the golden cow of rules of religion

 

[Godhelpus]

You said.......
"And as with all false doctrine, we can see the argument is more philosophic and esoteric than just plain Scripture".

With all due respect my friend, your comments are in fact false teachings based more on YOUR wants than said in Scripture.

Concerning baptism in "Jesus name only", you said............
"Their real purpose is to command a formula of water baptism, as you say, in order to proselytize all believers into their special churches."

Formula???? Are you aware that those who hold to the Trinitarian formula most certainly do not consider such a baptism to be valid. That is because Trinitarians recognize Oneness believers as Modalists, and modalism was named a heresy in the third century. Considering that up until the year 1826 the Catholic Church used to execute heretics, I would assume that they would not consider those individuals Christian today unless they were re-baptized using the traditional formula.

You then said..........
"Of a trinitarian Pentecostal sect, not oneness."

Again, I am not arguing with you or disrespecting you, but what you are posting is more Oneness theology than anything else.

Example...You said =
"Exactly. Their real purpose is to command a formula of water baptism, as you say, in order to proselytize all believers into their special churches. "
And then used Mat. 23:15 to validate your comment........
Mat 23:15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Now what does Matt. 23:15 have to do with a baptism formula that you said was needed? NOTHING!

Now my question about a formula that YOU said is needed, isnt that exactly what we see in Matthew 28:19...........
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I'm only repeating what I know about false teachings of baptism with water, in order to be saved by. It's not what I believe. In my past trinitarian Pentecostalism, we never believed water baptism was necessary to be saved.

 

[Godhelpus]

Since this is the end of the world, it seems to me that this is speaking of the great white throne judgement.

This is a reasonable conclusion; however, not the only one. The world is translated from age aionos, not cosmos. They are interchangeable in many cases, such as in Heb 1, where the God makes the ages/worlds by His Son. There is now only one world that will end, but there are more than one ages, that have and will end in this world.

The only time the end of this physical world is prophesied, is not in Matthew 24, which is the end of this age with the Lord's return. But rather in 2 Peter 3, when this heaven and earth will be burned away with fire. The judgment at that time can only be at the GWT.

Therefore, the separation between wheat and tares can well be made by God twice: First at the Lord's return with the first resurrection, and then at the GWT, when the rest of the dead live again.

The tares being burned in the fire seems to be a reference to the lake of fire which is the second death.

Once again, it can be first at the end of this age by the Lord's return, and again at the end of this world by fire and melting heat. However, Jesus informs us that specifically now in this age, there are both wheat and tares awaiting separation. That separation certainly is with His second coming, where He severs His good and faithful servants from the evil and unfaithful.

Unless there is Scripture specifically saying, that those bad believers and servants remain on earth, then the severing of tares from wheat can only be at the GWT. In that case, I would be corrected in part, and acknowledge the wheat and tares are not at the Bema judgment.

However, there is a problem with 'tares' in Matthew 13 during the Millennium:

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The devil will not be sowing anything on earth during the Millennium, because he will be shut up in the bottomless pit. Therefore, the those tares must be at this time, and severed at the Lord's return, when the angels will gather the wheat to meet with the Lord in the air, and the tares will be gathered and burned with fire in hell.

Everyone that goes into the millenium gets the same treatment, a forced righteousness (sort of), but not everyone responds by accepting Jesus. There are those that will still reject Him and rise up against Him at the end and will be consumed with fire from Heaven.

Very true. The Lord's millennium will be His greatest harvest of souls to Himself, in more abundance than all the thousands of years going before.

And when His reign expires, the devil will be loosed with liberty to round up the enemies of the Lord for one last battle on this earth. It will take however long to gather against the Lord, but in in day it will be quickly destroyed by fire of the Lord from heaven. A much larger repeat of Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[Dave F.]

Can you please clarify these two statements? How can the devil not be sowing anything on earth and yet be let loosed to round up the enemies of the LORD?

The devil will not be sowing anything on earth during the Millennium, because he will be shut up in the bottomless pit. Therefore, the those tares must be at this time, and severed at the Lord's return, when the angels will gather the wheat to meet with the Lord in the air, and the tares will be gathered and burned with fire in hell.


And when His reign expires, the devil will be loosed with liberty to round up the enemies of the Lord for one last battle on this earth. It will take however long to gather against the Lord, but in in day it will be quickly destroyed by fire of the Lord from heaven. A much larger repeat of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I understand that the devil is chained up during the millenium and that he will be loosed, but you seem to be saying that the devil has nothing to do with these enemies of the LORD becoming the enemies of the LORD. Perhaps I am just misunderstanding you, which is why I ask for the clarification.

 

[In Awe of Him]

do your self a favor don't hurt your arm patting your self on the back . i truly do not like being this way .. i figure my post will be removed due to kicking over the golden cow of rules of religion

I think it's an unkind "attitude" that tends to get people in trouble. Just saying.

 

[Major]

I think it's an unkind "attitude" that tends to get people in trouble. Just saying.

Yep....you nailed it.

 

[Major]

lol i have used grace with you and carefully worded with grace.. but it seems your bent on being the authorize one in this forum... BTW i do know what i am talking about contrary to what you or anyone else thinks . i fully understood what your saying i found nothing tieing wheat and tares in to judgement of nations ..i have read it carefully compared to jay mcgee and we both line up.. along with other studies ..


dont be so quick to point me out in error the only thing 13 and 25 have in common is judgement

do your self a favor don't hurt your arm patting your self on the back . i truly do not like being this way .. i figure my post will be removed due to kicking over the golden cow of rules of religion

Thank you for the Christian advice and may God bless you Pastor.

 

[Godhelpus]

This is why the thief of the cross example fails for me... he wasn't baptized because he literally could not be. The exception can't also be the rule. This view of baptism is always under extreme circumstances. I'm talking about the person who just doesn't want to or is putting it off for years and years. Someone who can't be baptized is different from someone who won't be baptized.

Now, I agree with this, and it ought be taught this way, with obedience to any commandment of God. It's not about becoming saved, but about keeping the commandments of the Lord, of which water baptism is one.

Mat 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.