A Biblical rebuke to the prosperity gospel movement

[Major]

What else does poor mean besides lacking??? Does poor mean that Jesus was rich? Notice that the last word in that verse is poverty. I'm not making assumptions, I know what poor means.

For a young person, you have a very discerning spirit.!

It is like reading Romans 3:23 where the Scriptures say....
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

I looked up the meaning of ALL in the dictionary and it says that ALL means ALL!!!!! LOL!!!

I am very proud of you my little brother. I really feel like God is preparing you for something really special.

 

[Major]

Well, I am done with this argument, because no one's views are going to change once again.

Now that is also a true understanding.

 

[Euphemia]

For a young person, you have a very discerning spirit.!

It is like reading Romans 3:23 where the Scriptures say....
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

I looked up the meaning of ALL in the dictionary and it says that ALL means ALL!!!!! LOL!!!

I am very proud of you my little brother. I really feel like God is preparing you for something really special.

I somehow think that God is not expecting us to gain entrance through the grand gates of heaven with a dictionary under our belt, but rather a solid understanding of the holy scriptures through the interpretation of Holy Spirit.

 

[Silk]

I somehow think that God is not expecting us to gain entrance through the grand gates of heaven with a dictionary under our belt, but rather a solid understanding of the holy scriptures through the interpretation of Holy Spirit.

If you want to define, as understood by most, a term/word, a dictionary will not block you from those gates but a lack of understanding sure might.

 

[Juk]

For a young person, you have a very discerning spirit.!

It is like reading Romans 3:23 where the Scriptures say....
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

I looked up the meaning of ALL in the dictionary and it says that ALL means ALL!!!!! LOL!!!

I am very proud of you my little brother. I really feel like God is preparing you for something really special.

Thanks.

 

[Great Fiction]

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

The Word of God speaks for Itself.

I deeply respect your position Juk, here is mine, my friend in Christ

I am not a proponent of the prosperity gospel; for the gospel is centric to Christ and Him crucified, that his blood ran, and that our lives can be reconciled to the Father through obedience. I find that money is a simple by-product of any society; a medium of exchange that should flow back and forth without violence, accusatory fairness or ambiguous condemnation to interfere.

I am a proponent of Christian property ownership and without any definable limitations from any man or woman.

I am not a proponent of vain accumulations

I am a proponent of ethical, honest and responsible accumulations of strategic property, as that property is ultimately managed in the confines of ethics.

I am a proponent of ethical, honest and strategic business in the confines of voluntary trade.

I believe all honest wealth should be free of violence, accusation, intervention, condemnation, fairness, despotism, deceit, fraud or false pretense.

I am a proponent of prayer, and pray that the body Christ will in their contentment be the majority property holders in every society; for if Christians are not, then the wicked will, who has a six thousand year history to decimate the controlled and impoverished church to unfettered violence.

I think a nation of impoverished people, are a people that is controlled, conquered, taxed, expropriated, confiscated and tortured; a nation that is wealthy is often afforded much liberty to choose righteousness or wickedness.

I think a large accumulation of honest and responsible wealth is not evil, I think a poor or rich man who loves one dollar then taps into the root of all evil.

I believe the foundational contract/covenant of Natural Rights from God is one of “property” and He did not condemn us to possess it but told us to possess it, rule it, to take authority over it and to be fruitful doing it. Thus the precedent is at first life, liberty and property to establish ethics for cooperation, yet our second voluntary contract of Salvation moves us to contentment, honesty, altruism, and obedience regarding property which is not in conflict with the first.

 

[Silk]

Let's be clear - I have no envy of wealthy/prosperous Christians and wish their comfortableness and prosperity to continue for them. I certainly wish them no harm and pray for the good things to continue for them. I have been a Christian all of my life and but I can't say, looking back I was a good one. I had property and things - I was upper middle class all my life. Had a stable job, well paying, a retirement plan - good health. And one day in 2001, I fell for no reason on a street outside my work. I thought, being in a "helping" profession, I knew what poor was by observing it in others. Unlike Job, I was not blameless but I don't think anyone thought I was evil. I who had hobnobbed and partied with the powerful and wealthy, learned what being poor really is like. I wondered why God thought I needed to learn these harsh lessons but I didn't lose my faith. When I fell, I triggered carpel tunnel syndrome in both arms, and only much later ( a month) was I correctly diagnosed with a broken left ankle and 6 months later with fibromyalgia, which was also triggered by the fall. I don't wish anyone to go thru what I went thru. I lost my job, my health, my things and did not have 2 pennies to rub together. God spoke with me 4+ years ago in a 2 hour conversation. I call it that because I have no other words to express the experience. I didn't know anything about prosperity/wof/charismatic preaching at the time. I learned about it starting here in this forum. But in my conversation with God - He told me He was furious/angry with people taking money in His name to spend on themselves. He certainly forbid me to take any money in doing His work. And He has taken care of me, although no Argentinian steaks. Part of that work was learning and understanding His Word. In context, unsculpted. My mother, who passed a short time before I fell and had given me my faith, would be proud of me now. I'm a much better Christian. And I would not be so without that learning. We should not be afraid of correction in this life because the alternative is having no life after with God. Yes!!! God wants us to be happy but that happiness is ultimately only with Him in Heaven....not here, not now. My faith was never fragile, and so taking away worldly things did not break it. If I believed that God had promised me that in the here and now all would always be rosy, I would have broken. You can say, "well you deserved what came because you were not walking with God" But I would say God, lovingly carried me through it and everyone deserves it just as much as I did. Bad things happen to good people. It either breaks you or makes you stronger. Only with God makes you stronger and reliant on Him.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Jesus travelled in a large group - He lived with a large group...They needed to pool their resources - that's why churches have people do their accounting. It has nothing to do with how wealthy they are/were. Some churches are poor. And still need someone to act as an accountant.

There has been much made of defining "prosperity" as including more than money. The thread title has to do with rebuking the Prosperity movement for wrong teaching. There is a reason that throughout the bible, we are told that wordly goods will not get us either happy, saved or that doing well is a sign of God's favor. There is a reason that it says Luk_18:25
For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Here's a link about prosperity preasching: http://www.cedricstudio.com/personal/copeland.html

Sorry silk but this is not as true as you say. We are taught that these things can NOT replace God. We are taught that God be first these things second. The bible teaches us to not store this stuff up for our selves. It do9es not in any way say it is wrong or un wise.

It is not trying to be said silk it is this way - biblical prosperity is more then finances.
In fact here is your words ((There has been much made of defining "prosperity" as including more than money ))

Yes we know what the thread title is - however it does not make it correct.
God Bless

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Jesus travelled in a large group - He lived with a large group...They needed to pool their resources - that's why churches have people do their accounting. It has nothing to do with how wealthy they are/were. Some churches are poor. And still need someone to act as an accountant.

There has been much made of defining "prosperity" as including more than money. The thread title has to do with rebuking the Prosperity movement for wrong teaching. There is a reason that throughout the bible, we are told that wordly goods will not get us either happy, saved or that doing well is a sign of God's favor. There is a reason that it says Luk_18:25
For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Here's a link about prosperity preasching: http://www.cedricstudio.com/personal/copeland.html

Silk I checked out your so called link. Kind of twist things to prove thier point but what the heck ifit sounds good and makes me look good then lets slander servants of God. Yee haw/
ROFL

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

No, this statement, "Juk do you really ? Is this with human understanding or spiritual Juk ?" What would be the spiritual understanding of the word, "poor"?

How it was meant when it was said JUK. No disrespect meant Juk but I aint about to do your home work for you. You made this thread - where is your proof to back it up ? Where is the spiritual truth God gave you to make these claims ?

All you have shown is what others have said and pulled out some scripture you FELT made the claim. Forget those who pat you on the back for a moment Juk or dont believe certain things -

When you stand before God and asked what do you base your claims with ? What are you going to say ? well so and so said this and I saw it on the internet and so forth. Brother that stuff will be burnt up with all the other rubble.

What I am trying to show you my friend is simply this - none of these people in here will stand with you. Nothing they say or do will amount to anything when you stand before the great Judge and we all will and we all will give account for ever idle word we spoke.

If you are going to make claims putting down others teachings or ministries or even if they are servants of God - you need God on your side bro not forum members and internet sites.

You wont grow much or learn to hear His voice like you want when you are constantly involving your self in strife and rumors and gossip and judging. What you sow is what you reap- sow contentment well you wont reap peace. Sow judgment on others - reap a higher judgment on your life and actions.

All I am doing here Juk is trying to shake you up a bit and get you to walk in Juks shoes not some one else's. You will get farther.

Have a great summer

 

[Silk]

Sorry silk but this is not as true as you say

Which part of scripture is untrue? Or do you doubt that evil men/women are rich & prosperous? So does God favor them? Are we dealing with facts? Or your say so? Do you want pictures of their estates while their donors eek by waiting for their 100 fold return on their donations? When they don't get the guaranteed 100 fold back. Shrug....their faith is weak and that's why. There is no comfort when problems hit because it is their own fault. None of this reflects God's glory. And I always type what I find is truth. You want your rewards here. Believe that if it is your will - it's not scriptural, IMO.

 

[Silk]

@Fish Catcher Jim - when you read the link, did you notice all statements were backed and cross referenced with scripture or did you just skim?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Which part of scripture is untrue? Or do you doubt that evil men/women are rich & prosperous? So does God favor them? Are we dealing with facts? Or your say so? Do you want pictures of their estates while their donors eek by waiting for their 100 fold return on their donations? When they don't get the guaranteed 100 fold back. Shrug....their faith is weak and that's why. There is no comfort when problems hit because it is their own fault. None of this reflects God's glory. And I always type what I find is truth. You want your rewards here. Believe that if it is your will - it's not scriptural, IMO.

No Just what i said

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

@Fish Catcher Jim - when you read the link, did you notice all statements were backed and cross referenced with scripture or did you just skim?

Silk did you not ever notice that you can take a scripture and make it cross with any statement.
I can take lines from your pastors sermons and make them say anything when used out of context. I can then take scripture and put it with it to make my point. So exactly what is your point ?

 

[Silk]

Silk did you not ever notice that you can take a scripture and make it cross with any statement.
I can take lines from your pastors sermons and make them say anything when used out of context. I can then take scripture and put it with it to make my point. So exactly what is your point ?

I have noticed people doing that - some a lot more than others. I have no "point" to prove - no agenda - other than to post what I see as truth. My scriptures have to agree - meaning in context and plainly saying what they say - not what I want them to say. I'm interested in learning/understanding God's Word, not in "winning" a debate. I do my homework and it looks to me Juk has done some of his own. Nowhere does it say, in scripture, that we aren't to test what we hear/read/watch and if we see false teaching, to reveal it. That's not gossip, nor is it told to us to be silent on such. He used one passage of scripture to show it for what it was. There are more, cross referenced to show it for what it is. My link noted multiple scriptures. Is what Juk typing negative or just plain truth?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

@Fish Catcher Jim - when you read the link, did you notice all statements were backed and cross referenced with scripture or did you just skim?

Hello Silk,
Lets use the ministry that you brought the link up about.
Did you know that they take NONE of the money from partners etc for them selves ? It all stays in the ministry which means it gets tithed and sowed into other ministries.

Did you know God got them the property they have now and it is all self efficient? Yep they make their own electricity and have free gas and so forth.

Did you know they got together with the police departments and built a training and qualifying range on their property and the police officers and such now train for free in a better place ? Yep and God did it not people.

I could go on but why bother - I have read the claims and I have read from what they teach and that does not line up. That should say something right there.

I get it you lump all pastors who teach any kind of prosperity into one false bunch. That is a shame for sure.

God Bless

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I have noticed people doing that - some a lot more than others. I have no "point" to prove - no agenda - other than to post what I see as truth. My scriptures have to agree - meaning in context and plainly saying what they say - not what I want them to say. I'm interested in learning/understanding God's Word, not in "winning" a debate. I do my homework and it looks to me Juk has done some of his own. Nowhere does it say, in scripture, that we aren't to test what we hear/read/watch and if we see false teaching, to reveal it. That's not gossip, nor is it told to us to be silent on such. He used one passage of scripture to show it for what it was. There are more, cross referenced to show it for what it is. My link noted multiple scriptures. Is what Juk typing negative or just plain truth?

Silk I am not trying to win you over. I have no desire to even try.
However the source behind the page - how much do ytou know about them ? Have you checked out everything they teach and claim and say ? How about what the ministry in question teaches -

Show me where scripture says we are to speak out all this false teacher stuff.

 

[Silk]

I go by what I hear as compared to scripture. I have watched over 50+ videos and web sites - learning what prosperity preachers had to say. Copeland's whole lifestyle is funded by people - many of them poor. And they get false teaching in return. IMO

 

[Silk]

Exo_20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo_23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Exo_23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
Deu_5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Deu_19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
Deu_19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
2Ki_9:12 And they said, It is false; tell us now. And he said, Thus and thus spake he to me, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I have anointed thee king over Israel.
Job_36:4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.
Psa_27:12 Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.
Psa_35:11 False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.
Psa_119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Psa_119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
Psa_120:3 What shall be given unto thee? or what shall be done unto thee, thou false tongue?
Pro_6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Pro_11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
Pro_12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Pro_14:5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
Pro_17:4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.
Pro_19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
Pro_19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Pro_20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good.
Pro_21:28 A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.
Pro_25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.
Pro_25:18 A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.
Jer_14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Jer_23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Jer_37:14 Then said Jeremiah, It is false; I fall not away to the Chaldeans. But he hearkened not to him: so Irijah took Jeremiah, and brought him to the princes.
Lam_2:14 Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.
Eze_21:23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken.
Zec_8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.
Zec_10:2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd.
Mal_3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mat_7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat_15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat_19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

 

[Silk]

2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jer_14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Lam_2:14 Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.
Mat_7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat_24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Luk_6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.