A Biblical rebuke to the prosperity gospel movement

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JohnP said:
So again - if for example, I hear a pastor preaching that Jesus is not the only path to salvation, I should not speak out against him, I should just pray and then keep silent? I want to make sure I understand what you are teaching.
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Why do you feel you have the right to speak out and say anything ?
Go to God first. Pray and seek His way. Other wise what ever you do or say is in your strength and wont amount to a hill of beans.

A little common sense helps here to John. If you see a preacher smoking crack - you can go get a buzz with him if you wish or you could pray right then and ask God for directions and do as He says and if you are not to the place where you can quickly hear and be lead then you could talk to him then or later but always pray first.

Now if you think a pastor is teaching false then you seek God.
I have a better question - you asked me to show you where it says we do not have the right to correct pastors - answer this and I will answer this question..........

Did man ( Bible schools etc.)teach and make a pastor out of the man or did man help and aid in God making a preacher out of the man?
 
Juk said:
Jesus was poor.
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Actually if you really study Jesus and what He had, He was very rich according to those days. Shoot His earthly dad was a carpenter (that's a good living and plus, He was very giving and very obedient and in turn God blessed His obedience, and His obedience in giving) He had His own house...His garments were one piece (which is expensive in those days) and He was fluent in speaking the Word of God, so like Abdicate said He had everything that He needed and more to give out. His disciples had a money bag. So if they were so poor why would they need a treasurer? That is what Judas was.
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
Very well done silk - you just proved my point for me.
No where does it say speak - talk - slander - HOWEVER what it does teach is God will take care of them - their fate is in His hands.

We have seen this - many ministries and pastors accused
Some fall and fade away - then there are those who get stronger and continue to see God working in them and through them but still the false accusations are spoke,

Why is this silk ? Because God will take care of His own - our JOB pray for them and lift them up. God is able to take care of His servants even those who people say are not His.

The pharisees and Jewish leaders did this alot - a very wise man rose and spoke - Acts 5:38-39
38... And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39... But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God

Thats good advise for any one - Now then explain how going around pointing your finger at every preacher or ministry that you think is false is Biblical and not just another Christian busy body majoring on the gossip circuit

Have a blessed day
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The timeline of '''come to naught'' needs some thought. It has hardly stood the test of time. Prosperity theology was pushed in the 90's, can be traced to the 80's and some claim tidbits were first taught in 1800...but the full blown message...is....two maybe three decades old.

What this means is that all those who taught and believed this in 100 ad to 1980 ad were... silenced.
 
KingJ said:
The timeline of '''come to naught'' needs some thought. It has hardly stood the test of time. Prosperity theology was pushed in the 90's, can be traced to the 80's and some claim tidbits were first taught in 1800...but the full blown message...is....two maybe three decades old.

What this means is that all those who taught and believed this in 100 ad to 1980 ad were... silenced.
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No disrespect what in the world are you talking about.
 
JohnP said:
So again - if for example, I hear a pastor preaching that Jesus is not the only path to salvation, I should not speak out against him, I should just pray and then keep silent? I want to make sure I understand what you are teaching.
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You can go to him and discuss it like a gentleman and a Christian should, but creating a gossipy blog or a highly edited YouTube "expose", etc is not godly, because simple minds and immature hearts will access it and be tainted by any error you promote by not going to the man and finding out where the difference comes from, if it is from the pastor's end at all.
 
KingJ said:
The fact that you think prosperity theology is acceptable because it is flourishing today / God has not made it come to naught. Satanism is also flourishing these days, google it.
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See brother you have me wrong here. ;)
I believe in biblical prosperity because it is biblical and taught in His written word.
I have nothing to do with theology what so ever.
Thanks for thinken of me though Brother KJ
God Bless
Jim
 
Abdicate said:
ALL: Each of us is unique but in Christ we are the same as He is no respecter of anyone and we ALL have a job specifically suited to us. Stop judging others for what they've experienced and you haven't. 1. Stop dismissing things you know nothing about and/or can't understand. 2. Strive to know Christ in every aspect of YOUR life and 3. stop looking at others and judging one way or another in ignorance.
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1. Every Christian should understand Matt 16:24. The need to 1. deny ourselves / our will 2. carry our cross (accept where God wants to use us, Nairobi or Beverly Hills) and 3. Follow Him (keep our eyes fixed on Him, the end goal despite how frustrating or uncomfortable the route is). As you said God is no respecter of persons. Hence it is dead obvious that His blessings to us fall on all of us. They are Eph 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

2. The truth is meant to be shared, plus prosperity teachers need to make me a part of their life or else they wont have much of a life.

3. How can you say exposing clear money changers in God's temple is judging in ignorance? Matt 21:12.

People here simply move the goal posts by suggesting they are referring to prosperity other then wealth.

Christianity 101 = No carnal treasure is ever a sign of God prospering us.

If God gives me $1 000 000 it is not a sign of God prospering me / me having mega faith. It simply means that God's will is likely for me to start orphanages, donate to the needy, help missionaries.

If God gives me $10 it is not a sign of poverty / God cursing me / me having no faith. It simply means that God's will is likely for me to do street ministry, do some fasting, trust food falling from the cloud above me.
 
Abdicate said:
That's just plain wrong. Just say'en...
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Not sure that it is wrong, the way he's worded it. I don't think he's saying (and forgive me if I've misunderstood) that God never provides earthly wealth as a way to prosper us (and we are in turn to use that wealth to the benefit of His kingdom). I think he's saying that having earthly wealth is not definitive proof of God's intervention to prosper you. Many evil people have great wealth. Many committed disciples of Christ do not.

Here's the thing. Can we truthfully say "I have material wealth, therefore I must be right with God." Or can we say "You don't have wealth, therefore you must not be right with God"? Some people do believe statements like these, and this is the most dangerous form of the prosperity beliefs... that material wealth is the evidence of your own righteousness, and lack of material wealth is the evidence of others' unrighteousness. Historically, sections of society have used similar teachings to justify gross wealth disparity.

The biggest problem I've encountered with prosperity beliefs are the above issues, as well as a seeming implication that the goal of Christianity is for earthly reward, which I'm fairly sure none of us here buy, but it is unfortunately something that gets taught. I think the complications with discussing this matter arise from the fact there there are many different "prosperity" doctrines, not just one.

I believe that God will "prosper" us if we live as His disciples, but I also believe that he doesn't get His definition of "prosper" from us.
 
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Abdicate said:
That's just plain wrong. Just say'en...
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Only if you think of 'carnal treasure' as 'flesh being happy' and are not discerning the desires of the 'flesh' of the saved vs the unsaved.

Carnal = worldly. Carnal treasure is what the world sees as a treasure. The world sees a Baywatch wife as a treasure. A Ferrari (;)) as a treasure.

Our flesh is a new creation. This is a spiritual blessing / spiritual prosperity. We see a holy, modest, faithful and God fearing wife as a treasure. We see money not used for vanity but rather for orphans, as a treasure.
 
Abdicate said:
No, I'm not saying wealth is an indicator that we're right with God. No.
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Of course you're not. I don't think anyone here is saying that.

But I do think some people do say that, and that view can accurately be described as a "prosperity doctrine," and it's worth pointing out why that's not the right way of thinking about a life of discipleship. My main point was that when we say "prosperity doctrine," we may not all be thinking of the same thing.
 
Most of the videos on web sites I went to were from the actual prosperity preachers because I did not know who or what they were saying. The errors as compared to scripture came out of their own mouths.
I am not PMing with Juk to try to influence a 13 year old. I agreed right out in the open with his OP. I confess, I did not look or find any prosperity preachers that didn't have numerous errors but perhaps you can show me one who doesn't?
 
Great Fiction said:
I deeply respect your position Juk, here is mine, my friend in Christ

I am not a proponent of the prosperity gospel; for the gospel is centric to Christ and Him crucified, that his blood ran, and that our lives can be reconciled to the Father through obedience. I find that money is a simple by-product of any society; a medium of exchange that should flow back and forth without violence, accusatory fairness or ambiguous condemnation to interfere.

I am a proponent of Christian property ownership and without any definable limitations from any man or woman.

I am not a proponent of vain accumulations

I am a proponent of ethical, honest and responsible accumulations of strategic property, as that property is ultimately managed in the confines of ethics.

I am a proponent of ethical, honest and strategic business in the confines of voluntary trade.

I believe all honest wealth should be free of violence, accusation, intervention, condemnation, fairness, despotism, deceit, fraud or false pretense.

I am a proponent of prayer, and pray that the body Christ will in their contentment be the majority property holders in every society; for if Christians are not, then the wicked will, who has a six thousand year history to decimate the controlled and impoverished church to unfettered violence.

I think a nation of impoverished people, are a people that is controlled, conquered, taxed, expropriated, confiscated and tortured; a nation that is wealthy is often afforded much liberty to choose righteousness or wickedness.

I think a large accumulation of honest and responsible wealth is not evil, I think a poor or rich man who loves one dollar then taps into the root of all evil.

I believe the foundational contract/covenant of Natural Rights from God is one of “property” and He did not condemn us to possess it but told us to possess it, rule it, to take authority over it and to be fruitful doing it. Thus the precedent is at first life, liberty and property to establish ethics for cooperation, yet our second voluntary contract of Salvation moves us to contentment, honesty, altruism, and obedience regarding property which is not in conflict with the first.
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Excellent positional statement! I agree with you totally.
 
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Silk said:
Exo_20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo_23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Exo_23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
Deu_5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Deu_19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
Deu_19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
2Ki_9:12 And they said, It is false; tell us now. And he said, Thus and thus spake he to me, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I have anointed thee king over Israel.
Job_36:4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.
Psa_27:12 Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.
Psa_35:11 False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.
Psa_119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Psa_119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
Psa_120:3 What shall be given unto thee? or what shall be done unto thee, thou false tongue?
Pro_6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Pro_11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
Pro_12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Pro_14:5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
Pro_17:4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.
Pro_19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
Pro_19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Pro_20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good.
Pro_21:28 A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.
Pro_25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.
Pro_25:18 A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.
Jer_14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Jer_23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Jer_37:14 Then said Jeremiah, It is false; I fall not away to the Chaldeans. But he hearkened not to him: so Irijah took Jeremiah, and brought him to the princes.
Lam_2:14 Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.
Eze_21:23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken.
Zec_8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.
Zec_10:2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd.
Mal_3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mat_7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat_15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat_19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
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Whew! That really confirms the Scripture of.........."Ask and ye shall receive".

Good work!
 
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Silk said:
Exo_20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo_23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Exo_23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
Deu_5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Deu_19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
Deu_19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
2Ki_9:12 And they said, It is false; tell us now. And he said, Thus and thus spake he to me, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I have anointed thee king over Israel.
Job_36:4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.
Psa_27:12 Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.
Psa_35:11 False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.
Psa_119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Psa_119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
Psa_120:3 What shall be given unto thee? or what shall be done unto thee, thou false tongue?
Pro_6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Pro_11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
Pro_12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Pro_14:5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
Pro_17:4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.
Pro_19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
Pro_19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Pro_20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good.
Pro_21:28 A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.
Pro_25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.
Pro_25:18 A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.
Jer_14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Jer_23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Jer_37:14 Then said Jeremiah, It is false; I fall not away to the Chaldeans. But he hearkened not to him: so Irijah took Jeremiah, and brought him to the princes.
Lam_2:14 Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment.
Eze_21:23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken.
Zec_8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.
Zec_10:2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd.
Mal_3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mat_7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat_15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat_19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
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What is the message?
 
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