MMurphy
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This might be the closest thing I've ever seen to a miracle.
Afterlife
- Thread starter MMurphy
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This might be the closest thing I've ever seen to a miracle.
My brother, all I did and do is post the Scripture and then explain what I believe is being said for us all to learn from and grow on.
To me it is God's advice to man so that we can live a righteous life serving the God of Creation. YOU do not have to agree with me. In fact no one has to agree with me. I am NOT a Bible scholar or an infallible teacher. I am a sinner saved by the grace of God with nothing to prove except to get out the Word of God that Jesus and only Jesus saves man from their sin and its penalty.
Listen and read this slowly and carefully........, ready??..........
You are obviously trying to blame me for your inability to grasp the teaching and advice that is given to us in the Word of God.
I HAVE NEVER said and do so right now, that my interpretation is correct!!! That is your perception because what I have said is NOT in agreement with what YOU believe.
It seems that YOU are the one challenged to be correct which then manifests itself in accusing me of that which is your problem.
Need proof...........?????????
Instead of just saying........"I do not agree with what you just said", you have decided to say............
" Your attitude from the get go has been that your interpretation is correct/It comes across as though your promoting your own magestrium".
That is YOUR perception and opinion, not a statement of fact.
I am always available to discuss the Scriptures with anyone including you. But if it can not be done in a way where personal accusations are used, then it would be wise if we both moved on to better things as I am too old to argue over non-essential things.
Be good and do well!
You asked and you shall receive.........
1 Cor 2:12-14
"Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things that are freely given to us by God. 13 And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people."
Hmmmmm!! More???
1 John 2:20, 27
"Nevertheless you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know".
27
"Now as for you, the anointing that you received from him resides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things, it is true and is not a lie. Just as it has taught you,"
Does that help you???
MMurphy
Inactive
Fair enough. I am sure that I have done that, and in that case I apologize. There are some here that are pretentious, but I should not have applied it to you. I think I was just heated yesterday, so I'm sorry.
Your subsequent post also helped, so thank you.
Thank you and I accept your kind words. You appear to be a person who loves the Lord and who is seeking the truth of life.
It just maybe that, that is the reason you have found yourself on this web site asking questions and posting comments. YA THINK??
Now allow me to say something to you in Christian love. The very best thing you can do as a Catholic and a Christian is to spend some quality time in Bible Study instead of Church doctrine and traditions. I was one that had to do the very same thing. I myself, many years ago, being brought up in the Pentecostal religion thought I was the only one who was correct and Pentecostalism was the only real religion and everyone else was wrong.
I KNEW what the pastors and teachers told me and they had to be right...didn't they????
BUT low and behold as I grew both in stature and knowledge I began to read the Bible and STUDY what I thought was the truth and I began to see that the teachings did not always agree with the Word of God. When that happens my brother we only have ONE choice and that is to believe the Word of God and NOT the dogmas of man.
Romans 10:17 clearly tells us that...........
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".
MMurphy
Inactive
Much to everyone's surprise I'm not actually catholic. I agree with you and bible study. What I have found in my church studies, however is that even the rejection of the catholic church is a man made dogma. For instance sola scriptura is a protestant dogma and I've found that most Christians did not abolish man made doctrines, they just substituted their own.
I do believe in respect to spiritual counsellors and I supposed my thinking is that doctrines of the old church ought to be held as true until proven otherwise with scripture. I don't think it was wise to throw away all traditions of the church because now people just ordain themselves. And its just become chaos.
2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV)
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness".
The question must now be, is that statement in the Bible correct. or do we reject it or modify it to what we would like for it to say???
The historical fact is that for centuries the Roman Catholic Church had made its traditions superior in authority to the Bible.
That action resulted in many practices that were in fact contradictory to the Bible. Some examples are prayer to saints and/or Mary, the immaculate conception, transubstantiation, infant baptism, indulgences, and papal authority. Now these are NOT my opinions but are simple proven historical events and facts that can be easily confirmed if you so choose to do so.
These and more were done out of tradition and from incorporating from the people that the Roman Empire had conquered. To keep the peace after they had conquered a country they allowed the religious practices of that land to be used in worship and those practices found there way into the RCC dogma. PLEASE......do the work, look up these facts in history.
Then is was Martin Luther, the founder of the Lutheran Church and father of the Protestant Reformation, was publicly rebuking the Catholic Church for its unbiblical teachings. The Catholic Church threatened Martin Luther with excommunication (and death) if he did not recant.
Martin Luther's reply was, “Unless therefore I am convinced by the testimony of Scripture, or by the clearest reasoning, unless I am persuaded by means of the passages I have quoted, and unless they thus render my conscience bound by the Word of God, I cannot and will not retract, for it is unsafe for a Christian to speak against his conscience. Here I stand, I can do no other; may God help me! Amen!”
The primary Catholic argument against sola scriptura is that the Bible does not explicitly teach sola scriptura. Catholics argue that the Bible nowhere states that it is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice. While this is true, they fail to recognize a crucially important issue. We know that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message. Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—the Bible. We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition.
(Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/sola-scriptura.html#ixzz36mkFS6fG)
MMurphy
Inactive
Let's move this discussion back into the Afterlife.
Major, I want to ask your opinion (and in all sincerity) what is your take on the afterlife?
And before you answer I want to introduce a few issues I have with the traditional view:
So, the basic premise of Christian faith, at least as it is now, holds that no amount of works can get you to heaven. It's one sin and your done, and in some senses even with just the original sin, unless you accept the sacrifice of Christ. So...
(A) What about the people who came, before Christ's atonement of sin? Particularly the Jews, but also the majority of the world. One can hardly say a gentile living in the Indus River Valley could have had the chance to become a Jew, so would they be condemned to Hell in your opinion?
(B) So, one common construction from revelations is the Bosom of Abraham, which from my understanding is a special pocket of Hades where the righteous dead await the resurrection. But in that case, what qualified someone to enter to Bosom? Was it only being a Jew or was it also following the Law?
(C) If there was a degree of discretion about who entered to Bosom of Abraham, could it also be argued that there is a discretion for those who, outside of the Christian Faith, nevertheless do good works, say Gandhi? Perhaps a purgatory, or posthumous baptism? Paul does say those who follow the law without the law are better off than those who have been given the law but do not follow it. James likewise echoes Faith without Good Works is dead. Could this mean that good works might also spark unknowing faith?
Huntingteckel
Inactive
Good post. I've been playing with that idea in my head for a while now. I'm always hoping there is a chance that in Hades people can accept Jesus. This seems especially possible if we are conscious before the final judgment. It seems weird to me that they would be conscious only to think about going to hell.
Any spirit in Hades now is one awaiting Judgment, not heaven. those who WERE in the bosom of Abraham were all there before Jesus' crucifixion and were released to heaven by their faith in the Messiah they had placed their hope in by Christ who came to release them during the three days before His resurrection. So, they were Christians before Christ, in effect. There is no more "Bosom of Abraham" now, as those who die as believers go immediately to be with Christ.
MMurphy
Inactive
Thank you for effectively answering none of my question Euphemia.
Oh, I answered at least one for you. So, you're welcome!
A. Christ's atonement is throughout the ages: Gen 22:8, Ps 31:16, Ps 103:4
B. Actually Abraham's bosom is only mentioned by Jesus in Luke 16 where He preached to the captives and lead them free. Luke 4:18, 1Pe 3:19
C. Only those that had faith in God. There are no specific verses, but is the theme throughout the scriptures. Hab 2:4, Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38.
I hope this helps. I'm off to work...
MMurphy
Inactive
What about the non-Jews prior to Christ?
I am honored to respond to your question. By the questions you have asked, I can see that my responce is going to be a long one so be patient.
1. What is your take on the afterlife?
Rev. 21:3-4.........
"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
God has promised Abraham a LANF forever. He promised David a THRONE forever. Daniel told us in 2:44 that "a kingdom which shall never be destroyed.
The new earth will see the total fulfillment of all these promises. Heaven is coming to the earth! That is why we pray the Lord's Prayer........"Thy Kingdom come, in earth as it is in heaven (Matt. 6:10).
The City coming down out of heaven and suspended above earthly Jerusalem will be the New Jersualem, the city of God. It is the PLACE which Jesus said in John 14:2-3 that He was going to in order to prepare it for His bride....the Church, the eternal home of the believers.
You said..........
"So, the basic premise of Christian faith, at least as it is now, holds that no amount of works can get you to heaven. It's one sin and your done, and in some senses even with just the original sin, unless you accept the sacrifice of Christ. So..."
That is incorrect my brother and not Biblical in any way. It is true that the basic premis of Christianity is no amount of works can save you, however it is NOT one sin and you are done. The only sin that will dam a man's soul to hell is the sin of UNBELIEF! We sin dayily because we are sinners. Jesus forgives us and cleaneses us dayily when we confess and repent our sins. So then God is the Saviour of the soul day in and day out for those who have accepted Him as the Lord of their life and Saviour of their soul. Our sins of yesterday, and today are washed away by the blood of Christ so that we can have total confidence in the saving grace of the Lord Jesus.
(A) What about the people who came, before Christ's atonement of sin?
First of all, it is NOT my opinion which is important neither is it the measureing rod of what is acceptable. All I can do for you is explain what the Scriptures tell us and ask that you believe what God says.
#1. Rom. 3:23
"All have sinned and come short of the glory (Approval) of God".
Now I know you are leaning towards the Catholic idea of doing works in order to be saved. BUT is that what Jesus Christ tells us???? When asked......... "What shall we do that we might work the works of God?" The answer Jesus gave in John 6:28-29 was--- "THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD.....THAT YE BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE HATH SENT"!
So you can see clearly that it is FAITH in Christ plus NOTHING that saves a man. BELIEF in the Lord Jesus!
As for those saints before Jesus came. Romans 4:3..............
"For what saith the Scripture? Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted unto him for righteousness".
Abraham and the Old Test. saints were saved by faith looking forward to the coming Messiah.
(B) So, one common construction from revelations is the Bosom of Abraham, which from my understanding is a special pocket of Hades where the righteous dead await the resurrection. But in that case, what qualified someone to enter to Bosom? Was it only being a Jew or was it also following the Law?
Once again we need to consider the actual Word of God to be correct and not fall back on what we think or hope.
Luke 16:19-23..........
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."
We see here that the rich man and Lazarus went to TWO different places within the same location.
One is a place of torments and the other is Abrahams Bosom or Paradise. In the Hebrew this place is called Sheol and in the Greek it is called Hades.
Again the Scriptures tell us in verses 23-26............
23" and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us."
TWO definate places within one location seperated by a "great chasm".
Now your question is how did the peopl in Paradise get there?? Same answer my brother.......FAITH IN MESSIAH!
Romans 5:1
"Therefore being justified by FAITH we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".
Also remember Luke 23:39-43...............
"One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise".
That Paradise in verse 43 is the same Paradise the Lazarus went to.
(C) If there was a degree of discretion about who entered to Bosom of Abraham, could it also be argued that there is a discretion for those who, outside of the Christian Faith, nevertheless do good works, say Gandhi? Perhaps a purgatory, or posthumous baptism.
I am well aware that a great number of people want it to be just as you have stated. In fact, I wish that was the case as well. But if we are to believe that the Bible is God's final Word then we have to reject your premis because what it is , is nothing more than salvation dressed up in doing good works in order to be saved.
Now allow me to ask you a question. What do YOU do with Galatians 2:8-9????
'For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST"?
Do YOU just tear those verses out of your Bible and throw them away????
Salvation is totally of God so that all bragging is eliminated. If NOT then YOU and everyone else will say that because Ghande did really good things he can go to heaven. Do YOU not see how that is totally against the Word of God????
John 14:6...Jesus said to all of us.
"I am the way the truth and the life AND NO COMES TO THE FATHER EXCPT BY ME".
Do we also remove this verse from the Scriptures as well as the ones in Ephesians?????
Ooops. Hit post twice so I deleted this one. The first was long enough.
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FAITH!
Isaiah 28:16
"Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation of stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation; he that BELIEVETH shall not make haste".
Deut. 30:11-14
The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
No one can argue that they have an excuse and did not know the commandments of God. God has brought it to all of us and we know it.
Romans 1:18-20
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."
BOOM! There it is! Creation itself so clearly reveals that there is a God that man is without excuse. These verses reveal the historical basis of all mans sin. It was by willful rebellion in the presence of clear light of the truth!
Have you ever seen a baby born???? That ranks #1 for me!