Afterlife

What is your belief about Hell?

  • Eternal Torment

    Votes: 12 50.0%

  • Annihilation

    Votes: 3 12.5%

  • Universal Salvation/Reconciliation

    Votes: 1 4.2%

  • Other

    Votes: 8 33.3%
  • Total voters
    24
Major said:
My dear friend. YOU are in fact doing exactly what I said. YOU are trying to force the Scriptures to support your opinion.
Now that is a fact my friend and all one has to do is simply read what you has posted. There is no need to run away from what you have said to all of us. And once again I am telling you that you are completely in error!

You said...........
"There is nothing unbiblical about the notion that good faith breeds good works without exception.'

Now that particular comment is actually correct. Faith in fact does breed good works. We have said that and have agreed with you not because you said it but because the Bible validates that comment.

James 2:26...........
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”.

Then you messed yourself up by saying............
" Nor is there anything contrary to the notion that works play a role in salvation, else people would expect salvation without making changes in their life."

That is completely in error !!! We are saved BT FAITH and only faith and after that we are moved by love through the Holy Spirit to do good works. However, those works play absolutely no part in the saving grace of the Lord Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9
"We are saved by GRACE through FAITH and not of ourselves so that any of us would boast".

Again my friend............WHAT IS THE WILL OF GOD?

I have asked you that 3 times and you have ignored me.
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I'm not sure what your getting at with the notion of the Will of God. It depends on what respect it is in, but generally I would say the will is that all would come to know him.

Now major answer me this, if a maphia member believes Jesus is Lord, but yet he keeps performing bad works, can he still be saved?
 
Patricia Dalmadge said:
But, salvation is through faith. Mr Murphy are you saying otherwise?
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Those who don't do good works don't have faith. Its like trying to say its your employer that gives you money not your work, true, but your employer won't give you money if you don't work. Faith without good works is dead, so it is misleading to tell people 'faith alone' when God asks us for more. Point is that we don't do good works to 'earn' salvation, we do them to please God.
 
MMurphy said:
I'm not sure what your getting at with the notion of the Will of God. It depends on what respect it is in, but generally I would say the will is that all would come to know him.

Now major answer me this, if a maphia member believes Jesus is Lord, but yet he keeps performing bad works, can he still be saved?
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I am getting at you and what you think about the Scriptures.

It is not a notion my friend. It is a Bible fact and the sooner you learn it the sooner you can grow in knowledge!

The will of God is for all men to be saved! 1 Timothy 2:4...............
English Standard Version
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
New American Standard Bible
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
King James Bible
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

To answer your question, performing bad works does not keep a man from being saved anymore than doing good works saves a man.

Works has nothing to do with being saved my dear friend. How many times must I say that to you. Man is saved by grace through faith plus nothing! That is what the Scriptures say and unless you can show me some Scriptures that say something different, I think it best to move on. We are just chasing our tails in a circle here and you are refusing to accept the word of God and are instead believing your denominational teaching on this.
 
MMurphy said:
Those who don't do good works don't have faith. Its like trying to say its your employer that gives you money not your work, true, but your employer won't give you money if you don't work. Faith without good works is dead, so it is misleading to tell people 'faith alone' when God asks us for more. Point is that we don't do good works to 'earn' salvation, we do them to please God.
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Oh, I thought you meant you need more than faith to get saved. So, your saying that after salvation we need faith and good works to go to Heaven? I'm just trying to understand.
 
Patricia Dalmadge said:
Oh, I thought you meant you need more than faith to get saved. So, your saying that after salvation we need faith and good works to go to Heaven? I'm just trying to understand.
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So the understanding has historically been that one can not earn salvation, and this is true. Say for instance you murder someone, if you later save someone's life it doesn't change the fact that you still murdered someone. So good works do not erase sins, only God can do that.

However, the church never had understood that fact to mean that faith alone is the means to salvation. You need to ask, for what purpose were we saved? And the answer is, to do good works. So if you have faith and you don't do good works, you squander that faith and in fact I believe there are enough scriptures that warn about passive faith that it merits the conclusion that you can loose salvation for such apathy.

Major argues that works play no part in salvation. The consequence of such doctrine is that people can think that its okay to sin, not go to church, cheat, lie, steal, and be greedy and so long as they believe in Jesus they're just fine. I've said (and I think Major would agree) doing those things means you lack faith. But if that is the case then that means works affect faith ergo works affect salvation.

James 2:14-17-- What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
 
MMurphy said:
Major argues that works play no part in salvation. The consequence of such doctrine is that people can think that its okay to sin, not go to church, cheat, lie, steal, and be greedy and so long as they believe in Jesus they're just fine. I've said (and I think Major would agree) doing those things means you lack faith. But if that is the case then that means works affect faith ergo works affect salvation.
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I think the heart of the problem is when Major says ''faith'', he knows what that faith is. Faith...alone is a meaningless word. The bible is clear in John 3:16 that we need to believe / put our faith in, Jesus. Who is Jesus? Jesus said He was God. So when we believe Him / put our faith in Him, we need to believe He is God. Now, how in the universe can any sane person muster up / have enough faith to believe a man is God? Whose death cleanses us of sins. Who keeps us with Him for eternity. Hence the Holy Spirit needs to give us a measure of faith Rom 12:3 / reveals Jesus as Lord to us 1 Cor 12:3. Now God is not dumb, He judges us properly before this Jer 17:10.

Works can never give us the faith needed. Only having a heart after God's Acts 13:22 / doing Psalm 51:17. That is why David could kill, commit adultery and still repent and be worthy of heaven....in fact that is exactly why David repented.

Anyone doing good works is good...as in ''better then nothing''. All actions come from the heart. If we judged our hearts behind the good works 1 Cor 11:31 and they were selfless and sincere...we are surely a stone throw away from meeting Jesus James 4:8. Hence scripture like James 1:27. The thing is.....we do not judge ourselves truthfully! Most good works are done for selfish reasons. Not even close to 'having a heart after God's'. Jesus's rebuke of the Pharisees teaches us just about all we need to know on 'good works'.
 
Well whenever we're dealing with doctrine I think you have to consider what the effects of it will be and really think about if those effects glorify God. Whether its universalism, Calvinist predestination, or sola fide, the effects are that choices don't matter. Fortunately no Protestants that I know of actually practice sola fide they just preach it.
 
MMurphy said:
How would you explain the role of works in salvation?
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Works has no role in salvation.

We are saved by faith and faith alone, God's gift of Grace. BUT ...

... this faith will manifest itself in good works.

We are not saved by faith plus anything! We are saved by faith and not by the works produced by faith.

If we attempt to do good works to earn salvation, then:

Matthew 7:22-23 (The Message)
I can see it now—at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, ‘Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.’ And do you know what I am going to say? ‘You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don’t impress me one bit. You’re out of here.’
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MMurphy said:
How would you explain the role of works in salvation?
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Well, I'm afraid of weighing in only because I don't want to get tied into this debate for the 10th time.

But I'll offer two cents and accept that not everyone will agree with me -- as is their right.

We have to accept that we are saved by grace alone; Sola Gratia. It is a free gift. And we accept it through faith and obedience. I think everyone has heard me quote James 2:24-26 a million times. 24 where it mentions that we are justified by works and not saved by faith alone, and it follows up on verse 26 that faith without works is dead.

But of course, the Scriptures expresses the importance of faith. In fact, it explicitly mentions that we are indeed saved by faith and not of our own works, which is 100% true. We cannot work our way into heave, and faith is necessary to obtain grace. But works fueled by faith, is how were are justified.

John 3:36 says "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” The word believe really is a loaded word--it involved obedience and action, and we really see this since this verse contrasts "believe" not with disbelieving, but with disobedience.
 
HisManySongs said:
Works has no role in salvation.

We are saved by faith and faith alone, God's gift of Grace. BUT ...

... this faith will manifest itself in good works.

We are not saved by faith plus anything! We are saved by faith and not by the works produced by faith.

If we attempt to do good works to earn salvation, then:
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If that is true then can I continue sinning?
 
MMurphy said:
If that is true then can I continue sinning?
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Romans 6 (The Message)
15-18 So, since we’re out from under the old tyranny, does that mean we can live any old way we want? Since we’re free in the freedom of God, can we do anything that comes to mind? Hardly. You know well enough from your own experience that there are some acts of so-called freedom that destroy freedom. Offer yourselves to sin, for instance, and it’s your last free act. But offer yourselves to the ways of God and the freedom never quits. All your lives you’ve let sin tell you what to do. But thank God you’ve started listening to a new master, one whose commands set you free to live openly in his freedom!
19 I’m using this freedom language because it’s easy to picture. You can readily recall, can’t you, how at one time the more you did just what you felt like doing—not caring about others, not caring about God—the worse your life became and the less freedom you had? And how much different is it now as you live in God’s freedom, your lives healed and expansive in holiness?
20-21 As long as you did what you felt like doing, ignoring God, you didn’t have to bother with right thinking or right living, or right anything for that matter. But do you call that a free life? What did you get out of it? Nothing you’re proud of now. Where did it get you? A dead end.
22-23 But now that you’ve found you don’t have to listen to sin tell you what to do, and have discovered the delight of listening to God telling you, what a surprise! A whole, healed, put-together life right now, with more and more of life on the way! Work hard for sin your whole life and your pension is death. But God’s gift is real life, eternal life, delivered by Jesus, our Master.
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We will still sin, but God is working on us from the inside. The Spirit is transforming us into the image of Christ. God's Grace is changing us.
 
HisManySongs said:
We will still sin, but God is working on us from the inside. The Spirit is transforming us into the image of Christ. God's Grace is changing us.
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Yes but you see accepting that change is in itself a work. The spirit works in you and presumably you work with it, correct?
 
HisManySongs said:
Works has no role in salvation.

We are saved by faith and faith alone, God's gift of Grace. BUT ...

... this faith will manifest itself in good works.

We are not saved by faith plus anything! We are saved by faith and not by the works produced by faith.

If we attempt to do good works to earn salvation, then:
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Yep! I have been saying exactly that!!!!
 
MMurphy said:
Yes but you see accepting that change is in itself a work. The spirit works in you and presumably you work with it, correct?
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If your mother (God forbid) was lost and on her death bed accepted Christ and then she died. Do you think she would go to heaven????
She did NO work after being saved! She died with NO good works. Does she go to heaven???

Now this is not brain surgery and does not require a long answer neither does it need a smoke screen.
 
Major said:
If your mother (God forbid) was lost and on her death bed accepted Christ and then she died. Do you think she would go to heaven????
She did NO work after being saved! She died with NO good works. Does she go to heaven???

Now this is not brain surgery and does not require a long answer neither does it need a smoke screen.
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The question would be more on the end of whether or not she wanted to do good works.

There is also the matter of children who die early in life. As I said before it is not really a matter of needing to do a certain amount of good works so much as it is not squandering grace on bad works.

It is not really my place to say if someone goes to heaven or not, although repentance in itself is a good work.
 
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