We come in different sizes, shapes and colors. Yet we are equal, because, we have human life, and all human lives are equal because we are all created in the image of God. We must therefore have utmost respect for every human life and love and serve them unconditionally. The Sanskrit word, “namaste”, means, I bow down before the divine that is within you. When we become selfish and proud we reject God. When we reject God we loose respect for human life. This leads to injustice and evil in the world. Since the most priced and beautiful creation of God is human life, it is the first target evil attacks. Since human life begins through conjugal love, evil attacks it through the instrument of contraception. Contraception makes conjugal love sterile. Since love always aims to be fruitful, removal of this intent through contraception removes love from conjugal union and converts it to a selfish act. Furthermore, since contraception goes against conception of a new life, it goes against human life. This makes people numb when they destroy human embryos during IVF or kill their babies in the womb through abortion. It also increases divorce, because without true love it is difficult to sustain marriage. This creates a secular culture devoid of true love, leading to abortion, euthanasia and murder. It also creates a culture that makes human being commodities for sexual pleasure.
Are we equal
- Thread starter surrendersacrifice
- Start date
I really enjoyed this and I love what you said about becoming numb, because of an indifference to the consequences.
we need churches talking more about this!
Thank you for this post surrendersacrifice
Praying God's love and light to you
Jesus be with you
Agreed.
Now, my personal opinion is that today, now, all the chaos that we see all over the world and especially in the USA, is primarily the result of God's judgement on "Murder".
Yes, I know and understand the God is Love and He loves all of us. However, when you read the Scriptures we see clearly that God has always judged sin very harshly.
The world says there is no God and you may do as you please and that is exactly what we have done. Before 1974 with Roe vs Wade, abortion was done secretly and without direct government financial help. When the Roe vs Wade was passed it became Law and YOU and ME have been paying for government sponsored MURDER.
Yes, I know that is not popular teaching but it is the way I preach the Word of God and YES it does drive some people away and NO, it does not bother me is anyone leaves because I am more concerned about what God will say to me on Judgment day that I am about what a church member will say to me today about abortion.
Now, that being said allow me to tell you why I said that.
Galatians 6:7-8.........
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life."
Now lets read Genesis 20:13 which says.............
"Thou shall not kill".
The actual/literal rendering of the Hebrew word in that verse "Kill" is "Murder".
So then, with that as the background and context we can clearly understand now that Abortion is the murder of an unborn child. This act is not against the law. The person having the abortion will not be jailed and brought up on charges for murder.
But is that the only type of judgment and punishing? The person must live with what they have done. If they have any kind of conscience they will be reminded of what they have done. My real life experience has been that every year on the date of an aborted child, the mother who made that choice to murder her child has a really bad day and as she gets older those days become weeks and then months.
Then After death, the person must face final judgment. They must accept the penalty for the commission of an act against humanity and God.
Can that person be forgiven and still get to heaven?? OF course they can and actually the only way that they can live with themselves is to confess the Lord Jesus Christ and believe upon Him as their Saviour. Only Christ can help that person live a life they have left.
The primary reason God hates murder is that out of all creation, only human are made in his image and likeness (Genesis 1:26 - 27, 9:4 - 6). Even before the codification of the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai, the murder of other human beings was wrong (Genesis 4:8 - 12, 4:23 - 24, 9:4 - 6, Exodus 1:16 - 17).
Now my point is this. The real facts are that since 1974 the USA has "legally" murdered approx. 70 million human beings.
IF, you were God, how long would you hold back your anger and judgment?
Elsewhere you say God permits...?
Before that law was passed in the US, were people jailed for hiring an abortionist. Just wondering?
I'm not really familiar with roe vs wade. Was it a case of someone being guilty of murdering a child. Who would have stood up for the child? Was it the parents in question, the mother and father? Who was found guilty? I think in a lot of cases, the fathers don't even know about the child, but in others, they KNOW and they pay the mother to hire someone to kill their own child.
I'm not really familiar with roe vs wade. Was it a case of someone being guilty of murdering a child. Who would have stood up for the child? Was it the parents in question, the mother and father? Who was found guilty? I think in a lot of cases, the fathers don't even know about the child, but in others, they KNOW and they pay the mother to hire someone to kill their own child.
Hey Cooper!
I believe that God operates within TWO areas.
1. His "Sovereign" will.
Isaiah 46:10............
“Subject to none, influenced by none, absolutely independent: God does as He pleases, only as He pleases, always as He pleases. None can thwart Him, none can hinder Him. So His own Word expressly declares: “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure”.
2. HIs "Permissive" will.
I believe that He allows some things, for a time, to function in a less than ideal way which is His Permissive Will..
His Permissive will represents such a small and temporary block of events, though seemingly great to us, to the Lord, a thousand years are as a day– a blink and it is gone.
This permissive will encompasses things like evil, rebellion against God, blasphemous words and thoughts, murder, lies and so forth. As if man’s deeds are not wicked enough, man, night and day, broadcasts his evil thoughts, filling our television and computer screens–not to mention our minds.
This happens so that In the end, all that happens fully carries out God’s larger purposes. We have great problems reconciling God’s sovereignty and those things that He allows to happen under His watch. He does not. God is greatly pleased with his glorious plan.
This is difficult. It was your mention about the will of God, along with your mention of the 6th commandment, "Thou shall to kill (murder") that made me ask the question. God says "vengeance is mine" and equally God uses nature, his will to fulfill, the crossing of the Red Sea, the plagues, the flood etc. Now we come to the crux of the matter. Why would God commit an entire people to Hell by commanding them to kill the Cananites, when God could have destroyed them without commanding his chosen people to do something that He himself considers an act of wickedness? You mentioned about the evil heart behind the finger that pulls the trigger. Would that mean those fleeing Egypt were as evil as their cousins. Remember, Joseph and family were from the land of Canaan originally and only two of the original people who fled Egypt entered the promised land. Alternatively was it not the pre-incarnate Jesus who commanded this, but another Lord they were following at the time.
This question has been exercising me for a number of years, and I would love to know your view on it. Thank you.
I believe the pre-incarnate Jesus would have made a way for them to return peacefully.
Last edited:
Hello Lanolin;
This post from the seminary study textbook, page 122, Moral Choices An Introduction to Ethics, Scott B. Rae and www.leaderu.com/norma/.
The "Jane Roe" in Roe v. Wade. Norma McCorvey was the plaintiff in the landmark 1973 case of Roe v. Wade, which legalized abortion. Her remarkable transformation from Roe supporter to pro-life activist is well documented and is a touching story of her own personal redemption. One little know fact about her is that, contrary to her testimony in Roe, she was not raped, and thus her abortion was not due to the fact that she was pregnant as a result of sexual assault. She became pregnant due to consensual sex. However, she did come from a very rough family background and was pregnant with a very unwanted pregnancy. Following her success as a Roe plaintiff, she was active in a pro-choice advocacy and clashed repeatedly with pro-life supporters in her hometown of Dallas.
Then as fate would have it, or as some would say, in the providence of God, pro-life pastor and Operation Rescue leader Flip Benham moved into the house next door to her. Over time Benham and other leaders reached out to her, bringing her faith to Christ. One of the most significant changes in her life was her move from pro-choice to pro-life activist. She started her own ministry, Roe No More, and has a special passion for crisis pregnancy clinics.
--------------------------------------------------
Praise Him! We are equal, and forgiven in the eyes of God, for He loves each one of us and can change the most extreme circumstances in our lives. Norma McCorvey died in 2017, years after she repented and gave her life to Jesus.
God bless you and your family.
Interesting, was it her family that didn't want to look after her and the baby or the fathers.
If she wasn't married, does that mean the father had no responsibility for the child? Or would it have meant the state had to look after the baby (some children become what they call legal wards of the state if they have no parents)
So Jane Roe was the mum and Mr Wade was the dad? Also wondering how old Jane was at the time.
A lot of girls, from age of 13 and up, really have little idea what sex is, and their parents never tell them about it, and teachers never say well this is how you become pregnant. And I don't think many teenage boys even really have much clue. Many don't really connect it with falling pregnant. For most teens and those in their twenties growing up, for many it's just something to do for fun.
I think while those in their teens and twenties can and do have children, they really need support from their parents (children's grandparents) but an entire generation was wiped out thanks to war, and so, they are not getting it. Because of the war, the state has stepped in for baby boomers, but, these same baby boomers don't feel they need to support their grandchildren for some strange reason, when the state can't. When they are now in a good position to do so.
I will certainly try to answer your question. As your question stems actually from comments from abortion it seems only prudent to start from that perspective.
Now I must say, I am honored to have to ask me my opinion, I truly believe that there are lots of more qualified people that are available to you instead of me.
That being said, I can only give you what "I" believe to be true. So then, when we come to the Christian faith which is grounded in the Bible, it is important to remember that God’s moral standard is significantly superior to our faulty and distorted concept of morality. Sadly, our world’s moral standard is self-centered rather than being God-centered. The world’s concept of morality changes with public opinion which drifts like the ocean currents.
That is IMO the key to understanding your question. As a result, murder of another human being – abortion – is considered to be okay.
It is defended as a moral right because women have the right to "Choose". IF...IF that is really true, then the womans choice should have been made BEFORE she had the sex act without protection.
The percentage of abortions done because of rape or incest is miniscule.....according to the records kept by the Guttmacher Institute----------
Just 1% of women obtain an abortion because they became pregnant through rape, and less than 0.5% do so because of incest,
Now think ........The world approves of lying as long as no one is hurt. This is the same rationale given for the different kinds of sexual acts done today by humans. I have to be careful here and not push the limits of our site. Today, Sexual sins are allowed and accepted because they are considered acts of love.
Increasingly, pedophilia is another “love act” that is increasingly being accepted. Often the criminal has more rights than their victim.
Capital punishment is considered evil, since people find it offensive to kill murderers.
Oppression of Christians and churches is acceptable, if you do not like them.
I said ALL of that to give the proper CONTEXT to show you that the world’s moral standard is self-centered.
The Bible teaches that God is holy. Isaiah 6:3 repeats the word holy three times. It is a reminder for us that God is holy.
Isaiah 6:3 says..........
"And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of hosts,
The whole earth is full of His glory".
That is repeated all through the Bible.
So what we then see is that God’s moral standard is not determined by one’s culture. It is a moral absolute! God’s moral standard can be summed up in one word – holiness. Holiness is an absolute standard. God is holy and we are not. Our sin colors our view of what is holy and of what is sin. People often call what is sin good and what is good sin!...........But God does not do that!!!!
Now, having understood the difference, your question was "Why did God command the Israelites to destroy entire people groups?
The answer is that God is suppressing more wicked nations by using less wicked nations to carry out His justice.
God has applied this same principle to every nation, otherwise, He would not be a holy God. That is why God commanded the Israelites to kill the Canaanites, the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites.
Deuteronomy 20:16-18 ...........
"But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: 17But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: 18That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God."
So then the answer is actually pretty simple. God is holy and He hates sin. God will take the life of a person who has ultimately rejected Him. He will do the same to any persistently wicked nation. He will use a less wicked nation to destroy a more wicked nation. God uses nations to suppress evil. If God did not suppress evil, He would not be a holy God.
Now......why use Israel or people instead of a natural calamity or judgment......He has done exactly that.
God allows the earth to reflect the consequences sin has had on creation.
Romans 8:19-21 says.........
“The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.”
Why does God allow hurricanes to destroy the homes of thousands of people? For one thing, such events shake our confidence in this life and force us to think about eternity. Churches are usually filled after disasters as people realize how tenuous their lives really are and how life can be taken away in an instant. What we do know is this: God is good! Many amazing miracles occurred during the course of natural disasters that prevented even greater loss of life.
Last edited:
All true and praise God for such a conversion.
The thread is about abortion and the law that has changed under different presidencies, and the Israelite's saw similar changes in the application of the law also. As there have been many presidents in America, there are two Lords in Exodus 32 plus Melchizedek the King of Salem who lived the same time as Moses. (Salam is now known as Jerusalem.) When we read in the Old Testament, "they gave jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD." (Num 31) we need to ask ourselves if the LORD was the pre-incarnate Jesus. I do not think so. What does our Heavenly Father need with earthly goods?
The Law of God as expressed in the Ten Commandments reigns supreme and continues into the present era of grace, as it did in the days of disobedient Israel. As a Christian, I feel we must follow Christ the I AM of the Old Testament, rather than any president or earthly Lord, except of course the I AM who made himself known to Moses, who later ordered the killing of thousands in disobedience to the Ten Commandments. So, my view on abortion and murder generally is that it breaks the 6th commandment. Self-defense is allowed, hence the military. Thank goodness for them, or we would be suffering the same fate as the Canaanites.
Last edited:
Cooper.......just so we are on the same page, allow me to say that the Abortion Law of 1973 did NOT come from a USA President or even congress.
It came from a Law suit On Jan. 22, 1973, Roe vs. Wade which was handed down by the Supreme Court.
IMO, "The Lord spake" as seen all through Numbers is directly from the Pre-incarnate Christ unless otherwise stipulated.
I say that because I am a "Literalist" when it comes to interpretation, I tend to accept the actual words as written.
So when Numbers 31:1 says........"The LORD spake unto Moses", I understand that to be the Pre-incarnate Christ.
NO.....God does not need anything. He did not need anything then anymore than He needs our tithe today.
I agree 100% that we follow Jesus Christ first not a president, however, remember that a "President" did not instigate abortion, and the way the USA congress works, even is a President today outlawed abortion, it would never pass in the Congress.
I think that it would be helpful to know that the reason why God had the people of Israel kill the people in Canaan was because of there extreme idol sacrifices of children/UNBORN to the god Moloch and beastiality.
Again........the question is WHY?
The Bible teaches us that this judgment was necessary because......
Israel's national survival was crucial so that the Messiah – we would know Jesus as the Messiah – and God's saving purposes of redemption to the world could one day be born because if the Messiah was supposed to come through the lineage of Israel and Israel co-mingled with this wicked people and was ultimately destroyed, that promise of hope and blessing to the whole world could not have been realized.
Thanks for the info on Roe vs. Wade.
Literalism is fine, but there are many Judaism's in the Bible, for example when Jesus spoke about faith being able to move mountains his audience would have known the mountain was an insoluble problem. Not a literal mountain.
The Lord spoke to Samuel in a still small voice when he was first in the temple, and this is how God generally speaks to all HIS prophets. Not so with the false prophets of Anammelech; Asherah; Ass-Worship; Astarte Worship; Atargatis; Ba'al and Ba'al-Worship; Baal-peor; Baal-zebub; Baal-zephon; Bamah; Calf, Golden; Calf-Worship; Chemosh; Dagon; High Place; Moloch; Star-Worship; Stone and Stone-Worship; Tammuz; Teraphim; and Witchcraft.
WORSHIP, IDOL- - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.
A few years ago I prepared a work sheet on the subject of idol worship:
I will stop here because I know how shocking you will find it. I am very thankful to be out of this, safe in the arms of Jesus. God bless.
Last edited:
Thanks for the info on Roe vs. Wade.
Literalism is fine, but there are many Judaism's in the Bible, for example when Jesus spoke about faith being able to move mountains his audience would have known the mountain was an insoluble problem. Not a literal mountain.
The Lord spoke to Samuel in a still small voice when he was first in the temple, and this is how God generally speaks to all HIS prophets. Not so with the false prophets of Anammelech; Asherah; Ass-Worship; Astarte Worship; Atargatis; Ba'al and Ba'al-Worship; Baal-peor; Baal-zebub; Baal-zephon; Bamah; Calf, Golden; Calf-Worship; Chemosh; Dagon; High Place; Moloch; Star-Worship; Stone and Stone-Worship; Tammuz; Teraphim; and Witchcraft.
WORSHIP, IDOL- - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.jewishencyclopedia.com
A few years ago I prepared a work sheet on the subject of idol worship:
I will stop here because I know how shocking you will find it. I am very thankful to be out of this, safe in the arms of Jesus. God bless.
Agreed my brother.
May I add to your comment by saying that the first thing that needs to be considered is the Bible’s use of literary techniques. The Bible is first and foremost God’s revealed Word; we want to be clear on this point. While the Bible is God’s revealed Word, it is revealed to us by way of language. God condescended—He lowered Himself—to speak to us in ways in which we would understand. Consider a father trying to communicate with his young child. The father has to condescend in order to be understood by the limited intellect and understanding of the child. This is analogous (though not identical) to the way in which God speaks to us.
I think that we both know that the Bible employs many forms, or genres, of literature. There is historical narrative, poetry, prophecy, apocalyptic writing, and epistolary literature (to name a few). Among these various literary genres, several literary techniques are used—metaphor, simile, imagery, parable, allusion, irony, personification, paradox, and hyperbole.
So then, when we read the Bible, we must recognize when these techniques are being used so we can properly interpret the meaning. For example
Example in in John 10:7 where Jesus says........
"I am the DOOR".“
How are we to interpret this verse? If we are too literal, we might start looking for a doorknob hidden somewhere on His body.
However, if we understand this to be a metaphor, then we can begin to understand His meaning that (Jesus is the way of access to eternal life, much like a door is the way of access into a room.
This is exactly why study is the key to proper Bible interpretation.
At my 1st glance, Your paper is very good and correct. You might want to do another one on the False Idols the church has set up today both in the USA and elsewhere.
An example would be......"UNITY".
We as Christians must all get along with each other and worship together. Is that what the Bible says. Is that what Jesus actually/literally said???
Matthew 10:34-36..........
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law- 36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
Just asking.........Isn't that exactly what the gospel does????
I believe that TRUTH is more important than UNITY. But that is just me.
Good to talk with you Cooper.
Last edited:
I agree, and the truth will set us free, and as Christian's we are already set free, praise God, we have a message for the whole world, so that "Whosoever will may come" just as Jesus intended. God bless and keep you. Thank you.
Last edited:
Absolutely !
But remember......I am only an old fashioned country boy from the great Promised Land and I am no Bible scholar in any means of the word.
God bless you Surrendersacrifice, you certainly opened up the field with your post. I didn't read all the comments carefully enough 'to carry the ball' and in what direction??? So if I could comment on the title 'Are we equal', I believe the concept is quite distorted by reason of the fall. In my understanding human equality has nothing to do with it. I believe that's why we have so many issues is because we think it is all about our perspective. In a sense it is not about us at all, it is about Him. If we could get that straight we wouldn't have any problems because come what may 'all is well'.
I expect I carried the ball out of bounds but then I'm still trying to figure out how to be a team player according to my perspective
I expect I carried the ball out of bounds but then I'm still trying to figure out how to be a team player according to my perspective
Being a team player... What sports is supposed to teach us is that the whole does better when each member does his part. As fans, we may hold an individual as a key member, but the best teams have great dedicated players in all positions. Our star loving point of view tends to color our assessment in all areas and differes from the Lord's.
The Lord's point of view values each of us individually. There is not a hierarchy of believers with committed men of GOd at the top and lesser believers below. From His point of view the quality of an individual is more concerned with whether that person is doing the Lord's will, irrespective others.
In military terms, a general is nothing without committed troupes. An individual soldier is made effective by the Officers he follows.
Do not be too concerned with your own perspective except that it is a perspective of following Him. Be a team player by committing to follow Him.