Are you ready to rightly divide the word of truth?

John Zain

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Jun 19, 2011
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“Be diligent to present yourself approved to God,
a worker who does not need to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)

There have been a lot of complaints about the Christian churches,
but what about the state of the Christian forums?

If you’re in a BOX where you just do NOT believe some of the following points,
I encourage you to climb out … and open yourself up to rightly dividing the
word of truth, and discover the errors in many long-held religious beliefs.

1) – Man has inherited the sin nature from the original sin of Adam and Eve.
2) – The Bible does NOT say that God has stopped using signs and wonders.
3) – The Bible teaches in 80+ verses that God is a Triune God of 3 Persons.
4) – The baptism of the Holy Spirit does NOT occur when one is born again.
5) – Jesus did NOT preach the Trinity to the poor and to the multitudes.
(Perhaps point 5 is only important to know if someone challenges you on it.)

There is NO Scriptural basis for coming against any of these true statements.

If anyone would like to debate any of these issues, I have my verses ready.
But, do you have yours?
.
 
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Glomung

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I have a very difficult time trying to understand the point behind some of your posts?
Is it an attempt to teach? Teach those who ask. Personally, I get quite tired of the longwinded
diatribes over obscure points of scripture. It's the equivalent of "fiddling while Rome burns".

"There have been a lot of complaints about the Christian churches,
but what about the state of the Christian forums?"


They are in just as bad a shape as the churches, for the one is derived from the other.
That's the main reason I left CARM, between the pointless hate and mindless heresy, I just could
not stand to be there.

"But, do you have yours?"

I don't need any. I have a very simple faith, and I intentionally keep it that way.
I have seen way too many who spend their wit and wisdom on endless examination of trivia
and obscure points to the benefit of none.

as to your list
1. all men sin, how we got that way is of no importance, that we are that way is of infinite importance
2. the Bible does not say an awful lot of things, so?
3. yep, this has been confirmed by the Saints and sages, 1 God, 3 Persons
4. how would you know? did you get a union card? I didn't.
5. Jesus did not preach the Trinity (as such) to anyone, it is a derived doctrine.
 
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I have a very difficult time trying to understand the point behind some of your posts?
Is it an attempt to teach? Teach those who ask. Personally, I get quite tired of the longwinded
diatribes over obscure points of scripture. It's the equivalent of "fiddling while Rome burns".

"There have been a lot of complaints about the Christian churches,
but what about the state of the Christian forums?"

They are in just as bad a shape as the churches, for the one is derived from the other.
That's the main reason I left CARM, between the pointless hate and mindless heresy, I just could
not stand to be there.

"But, do you have yours?"

I don't need any. I have a very simple faith, and I intentionally keep it that way.
I have seen way too many who spend their wit and wisdom on endless examination of trivia
and obscure points to the benefit of none.

as to your list
1. all men sin, how we got that way is of no importance, that we are that way is of infinite importance
2. the Bible does not say an awful lot of things, so?
3. yep, this has been confirmed by the Saints and sages, 1 God, 3 Persons
4. how would you know? did you get a union card? I didn't.
5. Jesus did not preach the Trinity (as such) to anyone, it is a derived doctrine.
It is an attempt to spread the doctrine of ONENESS which is an extreme of the Pentacostal doctrine.
 

Banarenth

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It is an attempt to spread the doctrine of ONENESS which is an extreme of the Pentacostal doctrine.
Oneness Pentecostal would not be using the Triune God argument at all, so I don't think that is exactly what he is saying.
 
Oct 2, 2007
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Sometimes I get the impression that Christianity is being presented as a formula wherein all the operations must be in the correct order, all the factors must have certain exact values, and all the decimals carried to the right number of places. It is true that doctrine is important and ought to be taught and defended, but Christianity is essentially a relationship between a Person and His people. It is a personal relationship, not a mathematical one.
 
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Banarenth

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Rumely, churches cannot agree on doctrine because we have all set our doctrines differently. Some churches cannot even agree on dogma, and THAT is where the real issue begins. (Dogma being what is required for Salvation, and rejection of dogma means Apostasy).

For instance, we have decided on a set of dogma for this site. We call that our Statement of Faith. For the purpose of this site, we recognize that Christians must follow those tenets to be Christian. From there, we don't have any official doctrine that we follow. For the most part, we seem to be "basically" Baptist from what I've seen, but that has changed because we used to be more "Willow Creek"-like at one point, and I think that just before I started we were closer to Presbyterian.

However, some churches have taken doctrine and turned it into dogma. For instance, many of the Oneness churches will say that if you were not Baptized in Jesus' name alone, then you are not Christian and consider the Trinitarian view to be complete Blasphemy. I tend to view the Trinity as more of a doctrine, so for me, I am fine with someone believing either version, but again our site requires members to agree with the Trinity, so Oneness churches would not be comfortable here. I am from the Wesleyan-Arminian Holiness camp. That is a doctrine, but I've seen a number of people turn it into a dogma, requiring Holiness for Salvation.

Where we TRY to keep the site, is more in the belief area. We don't hold a specific doctrine, and (as a site), we view all areas outside of the dogma category as opinion. Where the real challenge arises is when some members hold firm that certain beliefs are pure dogma. Oneness Pentecostal churches have a bit of a bad rap on this one because they "generally" (note* dangerous word) don't believe in theological study and maintain that ONLY the Scripture is valid for any study. So anyone who actually studies Greek or learns about some of the more in-depth or academic lessons are just not being lead by the Jesus in some cases. I don't feel that they are part of a cult, but they also wouldn't be happy here since we are *trying* to be more of a representation of mainstream Christianity, and Oneness churches have rejected most of mainstream Christianity.

I don't believe that is what John Zain represents. I do think he has created some dogma that the rest of us would consider opinion. I also think that we all need to review the Statement of Faith and see that when we go beyond that and require it of other people, that we are really only violating and disagreeing with it. I'd like to review this with the moderators and Helpers to see how we can better word it so this issue might stop coming up. One of the biggest issues IMO is that the SoF only states what you must believe, and there is no inherent statement that says that adding to it is also against the site terms.
 
Dec 29, 2006
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“Be diligent to present yourself approved to God,
a worker who does not need to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)

There have been a lot of complaints about the Christian churches,
but what about the state of the Christian forums?

If you’re in a BOX where you just do NOT believe some of the following points,
I encourage you to climb out … and open yourself up to rightly dividing the
word of truth, and discover the errors in many long-held religious beliefs.

1) – Man has inherited the sin nature from the original sin of Adam and Eve.
2) – The Bible does NOT say that God has stopped using signs and wonders.
3) – The Bible teaches in 80+ verses that God is a Triune God of 3 Persons.
4) – The baptism of the Holy Spirit does NOT occur when one is born again.
5) – Jesus did NOT preach the Trinity to the poor and to the multitudes.
(Perhaps point 5 is only important to know if someone challenges you on it.)

There is NO Scriptural basis for coming against any of these true statements.

If anyone would like to debate any of these issues, I have my verses ready.
But, do you have yours?
.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

As it was in the Old Testament did GOD already give this directive:

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

No wonder "many" people are wondering why GOD is speaking in such kind of "language" that seems to be contradictory and unintelligible or incoherent.
 
Oct 2, 2007
2,081
466
113
Lakeville, Minnesnowta
Rumely, churches cannot agree on doctrine because we have all set our doctrines differently. Some churches cannot even agree on dogma, and THAT is where the real issue begins. (Dogma being what is required for Salvation, and rejection of dogma means Apostasy).

For instance, we have decided on a set of dogma for this site. We call that our Statement of Faith. For the purpose of this site, we recognize that Christians must follow those tenets to be Christian. From there, we don't have any official doctrine that we follow. For the most part, we seem to be "basically" Baptist from what I've seen, but that has changed because we used to be more "Willow Creek"-like at one point, and I think that just before I started we were closer to Presbyterian.

However, some churches have taken doctrine and turned it into dogma. For instance, many of the Oneness churches will say that if you were not Baptized in Jesus' name alone, then you are not Christian and consider the Trinitarian view to be complete Blasphemy. I tend to view the Trinity as more of a doctrine, so for me, I am fine with someone believing either version, but again our site requires members to agree with the Trinity, so Oneness churches would not be comfortable here. I am from the Wesleyan-Arminian Holiness camp. That is a doctrine, but I've seen a number of people turn it into a dogma, requiring Holiness for Salvation.

Where we TRY to keep the site, is more in the belief area. We don't hold a specific doctrine, and (as a site), we view all areas outside of the dogma category as opinion. Where the real challenge arises is when some members hold firm that certain beliefs are pure dogma. Oneness Pentecostal churches have a bit of a bad rap on this one because they "generally" (note* dangerous word) don't believe in theological study and maintain that ONLY the Scripture is valid for any study. So anyone who actually studies Greek or learns about some of the more in-depth or academic lessons are just not being lead by the Jesus in some cases. I don't feel that they are part of a cult, but they also wouldn't be happy here since we are *trying* to be more of a representation of mainstream Christianity, and Oneness churches have rejected most of mainstream Christianity.

I don't believe that is what John Zain represents. I do think he has created some dogma that the rest of us would consider opinion. I also think that we all need to review the Statement of Faith and see that when we go beyond that and require it of other people, that we are really only violating and disagreeing with it. I'd like to review this with the moderators and Helpers to see how we can better word it so this issue might stop coming up. One of the biggest issues IMO is that the SoF only states what you must believe, and there is no inherent statement that says that adding to it is also against the site terms.
I find myself pretty comfortable in your average Baptist church, though I went to an Assemblies of God church for 10 or 12 years, serving as a deacon 5 of those years, and the Evangelical Free Bible camp I attended as a youth had a huge impact on my spiritual growth. I've also mentioned before about the other various denominations and fellowships with which I have worshipped. In all of them, I have found common ground for worship and service because we agreed on the fundamentals of salvation through Jesus Christ and agreed on most of the particulars of our beliefs. Obviously our differences were not sufficient to hinder our fellowship. This is not to say that I am wishy-washy in my dogma or my beliefs (I certainly won't be joining and "Chrislam" fellowships), only to say that I do not insist that someone agree with every point of my doctrine to be able to fellowship with them and recognize their salvation. A few years ago we had a thread on Communion. I was dismayed to find that one member for whom I had (and still have) tremendous respect said that I would not be allowed to partake of communion in his church because I don't believe that the elements become the body and blood of Jesus (transubstantiation or something quite close to it). I would have had no difficulty partaking with him, even though I don't believe in transubstantiation, because I know that both of us would be partaking in faith in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ for our salvation.

This is the approach I try to take, and hope we all can take, on this site. I am quite happy to learn about and discuss differences in particular doctrines or beliefs and I think we can discuss them with a generous and gracious spirit. On the other hand, there are heresies and errors and dangerous doctrines and those need to be adressed accordingly. The trick is to recognize whether we are indeed dealing with fundamental error or differences in belief within the pale of Christian orthodoxy.
 
Mar 18, 2006
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Sometimes I get the impression that Christianity is being presented as a formula wherein all the operations must be in the correct order, all the factors must have certain exact values, and all the decimals carried to the right number of places. It is true that doctrine is important and ought to be taught and defended, but Christianity is essentially a relationship between a Person and His people. It is a personal relationship, not a mathematical one.
Well said!:)
 
Mar 18, 2006
615
112
43
I find myself pretty comfortable in your average Baptist church, though I went to an Assemblies of God church for 10 or 12 years, serving as a deacon 5 of those years, and the Evangelical Free Bible camp I attended as a youth had a huge impact on my spiritual growth. I've also mentioned before about the other various denominations and fellowships with which I have worshipped. In all of them, I have found common ground for worship and service because we agreed on the fundamentals of salvation through Jesus Christ and agreed on most of the particulars of our beliefs. Obviously our differences were not sufficient to hinder our fellowship. This is not to say that I am wishy-washy in my dogma or my beliefs (I certainly won't be joining and "Chrislam" fellowships), only to say that I do not insist that someone agree with every point of my doctrine to be able to fellowship with them and recognize their salvation. A few years ago we had a thread on Communion. I was dismayed to find that one member for whom I had (and still have) tremendous respect said that I would not be allowed to partake of communion in his church because I don't believe that the elements become the body and blood of Jesus (transubstantiation or something quite close to it). I would have had no difficulty partaking with him, even though I don't believe in transubstantiation, because I know that both of us would be partaking in faith in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ for our salvation.

This is the approach I try to take, and hope we all can take, on this site. I am quite happy to learn about and discuss differences in particular doctrines or beliefs and I think we can discuss them with a generous and gracious spirit. On the other hand, there are heresies and errors and dangerous doctrines and those need to be adressed accordingly. The trick is to recognize whether we are indeed dealing with fundamental error or differences in belief within the pale of Christian orthodoxy.
Personally I follow Christ and fellowship where I can with those who are doing likewise. Consequently in my travels I have fellowshipped with a variety of denominations and churches. But I do not follow the teachings and commands of any earthly church or denomination I follow the teachings and commands of Christ as per the scriptures (Bible).

In short I FELLOWSHIP with churches but I BELONG to Christ Jesus alone. My church is HIS church, the one (and only one) of which HE is the one and only Head. It is scattered by the churches of earth BUT it is united by the ONE Father, the ONE Son, the ONE Holy Spirit in all AND the one WORD of God.

My brothers and sisters in Christ are those who would rather depart from a church than depart from the word and command of God (aka the Bible).
 
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If anyone would like to debate any of these issues, I have my verses ready.
But, do you yours?have
.
Hi JZ,

Of all of your post this is the bit that concerns me most. Why do you feel you must challenge people to prove you wrong? Has not Jesus taught us that debate is something to be avoided, not encouraged?

(AKJV)
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate (i.e. contentious, argumentative), deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings (aka "debatings") about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

2 Tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive (ie, quarrel, wrangle, dispute, debate); but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
A debate istwo people trying to prove THEY are right and the other person is wrong, when chances are they are both wrong. Debating is a verbal BATTLE and achieves nothing except ill will and division and loss of fellowship. You cannot ever hope to find truth by debating it to death. Truth must be SOUGHT, not debated. Truth lies in REALITY and no matter how good you think your argument is it will never change reality, it will never change the truth of the reality about you. If you win and argument all you win is an argument, not the truth. You will still not know if what you are claimingh is actually true. To do that you must SEEK out the reality, SEEK out the truth. Ask, Seek, Knock on the door of the Lord if you want to find the truth.

A debate is two people trying to win an argument. A DISCUSSION is two people TOGETHER searching for the truth. A prayerful and meditative discussion is two people together willing to learn the truth from the One who is the way the truth AND the life.

Do not challenge us to a debate, INVITE us to a DISCUSSION, if you want the blessing of the Lord upon it.

Sincere regards, Misty
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Hi JZ,

Of all of your post this is the bit that concerns me most. Why do you feel you must challenge people to prove you wrong? Has not Jesus taught us that debate is something to be avoided, not encouraged?

A debate istwo people trying to prove THEY are right and the other person is wrong, when chances are they are both wrong. Debating is a verbal BATTLE and achieves nothing except ill will and division and loss of fellowship. You cannot ever hope to find truth by debating it to death. Truth must be SOUGHT, not debated. Truth lies in REALITY and no matter how good you think your argument is it will never change reality, it will never change the truth of the reality about you. If you win and argument all you win is an argument, not the truth. You will still not know if what you are claimingh is actually true. To do that you must SEEK out the reality, SEEK out the truth. Ask, Seek, Knock on the door of the Lord if you want to find the truth.

A debate is two people trying to win an argument. A DISCUSSION is two people TOGETHER searching for the truth. A prayerful and meditative discussion is two people together willing to learn the truth from the One who is the way the truth AND the life.

Do not challenge us to a debate, INVITE us to a DISCUSSION, if you want the blessing of the Lord upon it.

Sincere regards, Misty
Well said Misty!
 
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2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

As it was in the Old Testament did GOD already give this directive:

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

No wonder "many" people are wondering why GOD is speaking in such kind of "language" that seems to be contradictory and unintelligible or incoherent.



28:10-
{So the Lord speaks to them like they are babies}: Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw Ze'er sham ze'er sham.


Saw lasaw … ze'er sham This is probably a Hebrew song to teach little children how to write. Also translated, "A command here, a command there. A rule here, a rule there. A lesson here, a lesson there."

28:11

"The Lord will use this strange way of talking and he will use other languages to speak to these people. "


Let one teach what he can, yet they will no more understand him, than if he spoke in a strange language.

 

John Zain

Inactive
Jun 19, 2011
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"Tis with my most deepest and sincerest apologies that
I henchforth replaceth the word "debate" with "discuss".
Now, I hope y'all sleep well tonight.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch ... does anyone wish to
rightly divide the word of faith and discuss any of the 5 points?
.
 

Ginger

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Apr 14, 2008
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Hey John,

You confuse me with your negatives. You seem to believe anyone who doesn't believe these statements are in error, but then your list fluctuates between positive and negative statements.

1) – Man has inherited the sin nature from the original sin of Adam and Eve.
2) – The Bible does NOT say that God has stopped using signs and wonders.
3) – The Bible teaches in 80+ verses that God is a Triune God of 3 Persons.
4) – The baptism of the Holy Spirit does NOT occur when one is born again.
5) – Jesus did NOT preach the Trinity to the poor and to the multitudes.
Can you reword them to all be positive, or negative, so there is no misunderstanding about what you are claiming. I hate arguing with someone only to discover we were actually in agreeement. :)

Ginger
 

Dok

Jun 13, 2011
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doktordoc.com
1) – Man has inherited the sin nature from the original sin of Adam and Eve.
2) – The Bible does NOT say that God has stopped using signs and wonders.
3) – The Bible teaches in 80+ verses that God is a Triune God of 3 Persons.
4) – The baptism of the Holy Spirit does NOT occur when one is born again.
5) – Jesus did NOT preach the Trinity to the poor and to the multitudes.
(Perhaps point 5 is only important to know if someone challenges you on it.)
1 - We inherited our sin nature from original sin. We are born in sin. In sin we are conceived.
2 - The Bible is clear that signs and wonders given to the 12+70 and Paul have ceased.
3 - The Bible teaches in 754 verses that God is Triune --- THE Trinity. (NOT "a" Trinity).
4 - The baptism of the Holy Spirit is instantaneous during the rebirth experience.
5 - Jesus confessed I AM. "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." "If I don't go away,
the Spirit cannot come." Clearly, He is One with the Father and the Holy Spirit. God materialized
or manifested Himself in the Person of Jesus. After Jesus returned to the Place of Honor, God
manifested Himself Spiritually in the Person of the Holy Spirit. WONDERFUL ! ! !
 

Dok

Jun 13, 2011
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doktordoc.com
A debate is when two or more individuals ask each other to explain God.
A discussion is when one or more individuals rejoice in His Presence.
Zowie ! ! ! :)
 
Sep 3, 2009
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1 - We inherited our sin nature from original sin. We are born in sin. In sin we are conceived.
2 - The Bible is clear that signs and wonders given to the 12+70 and Paul have ceased.
3 - The Bible teaches in 754 verses that God is Triune --- THE Trinity. (NOT "a" Trinity).
4 - The baptism of the Holy Spirit is instantaneous during the rebirth experience.
5 - Jesus confessed I AM. "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." "If I don't go away,
the Spirit cannot come." Clearly, He is One with the Father and the Holy Spirit. God materialized
or manifested Himself in the Person of Jesus. After Jesus returned to the Place of Honor, God
manifested Himself Spiritually in the Person of the Holy Spirit. WONDERFUL ! ! !
And that my friends is the orthodoxy of correct Biblical Christian theology at its best.

Excellent job Dok!!!
 
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