Are you ready to rightly divide the word of truth?

John Zain

Inactive
Hey John,
You confuse me with your negatives. You seem to believe anyone who doesn't believe these statements are in error, but then your list fluctuates between positive and negative statements.
Can you reword them to all be positive, or negative, so there is no misunderstanding about what you are claiming. I hate arguing with someone only to discover we were actually in agreeement.
Ginger, darling, that's a pretty neat joke. Kudos for that one.
 
If only we are truly ready to "divide the word of truth," and this is "by divine revelation" from the "letter" of the words, we would surely UNDERSTAND the "intended message of God" from the HOLY BIBLE. Then CHRISTIANITY today would no longer be divided into 1001 sects and denominations!

And we will clear discern the kind of CHRISTIANITY that Jesus Christ founded in the 1st century!

It is sincerely hoped, we all realize this truth that we can finally attain "peace as our Lord told His Disciples."

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

May GOD bless us all. Psa 56:10-13
 

Ginger

Inactive
Ginger, darling, that's a pretty neat joke. Kudos for that one.

LOL It's not a joke.

Look at what you wrote: "I must believe the Bible says 2) – The Bible does NOT say that God has stopped using signs and wonders."

I must believe something that is "not" there?
 

Ginger

Inactive
It looks like John is "inactive"......

But, I would still like to point out to others that saying we must believe the Bible when it does not mention something is a bit ridiculous. It's one thing to say the Bible doesn't say "this" or "that", but another thing to say we must then "believe" something about the missing information.....

In this case he seems to be saying "we must believe something based on the Bible not directly stating otherwise.

That is the same argument homosexuals use to defend their lifestyle as acceptable and pleasing to God - even going so far as to claim Jesus and his disciples were homosexual, in some instances.

It's the same argument pro-abortionists use to defend their "right" to murder the unborn right up to the ninth month of pregnancy!!!!

To say the example given: 2) – The Bible does NOT say that God has stopped using signs and wonders. must be believed is silly, also, because it is not necessary to our salvation!
To insist we must believe something other than what the Bible has said "we must believe", is contradicting the Bible.

What is written had one purpose: 1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 10:38
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

That was also the reason the Apostles were able to perform miracles. But today, most "miracles" are the ones we are warned not to believe. I believe in miracles, but not as those from Jesus and the Apostles, because....

Matthew 12:39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."

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It looks like John is "inactive"......

But, I would still like to point out to others that saying we must believe the Bible when it does not mention something is a bit ridiculous. It's one thing to say the Bible doesn't say "this" or "that", but another thing to say we must then "believe" something about the missing information.....

In this case he seems to be saying "we must believe something based on the Bible not directly stating otherwise.

That is the same argument homosexuals use to defend their lifestyle as acceptable and pleasing to God - even going so far as to claim Jesus and his disciples were homosexual, in some instances.

It's the same argument pro-abortionists use to defend their "right" to murder the unborn right up to the ninth month of pregnancy!!!!

To say the example given: 2) – The Bible does NOT say that God has stopped using signs and wonders. must be believed is silly, also, because it is not necessary to our salvation!
To insist we must believe something other than what the Bible has said "we must believe", is contradicting the Bible.

What is written had one purpose: 1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 10:38
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

That was also the reason the Apostles were able to perform miracles. But today, most "miracles" are the ones we are warned not to believe. I believe in miracles, but not as those from Jesus and the Apostles, because....

Matthew 12:39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."

.

You are very correct!
 

Panda

Sr Mod/Webmaster
Staff member
Senior Moderator
It looks like John is "inactive"......

But, I would still like to point out to others that saying we must believe the Bible when it does not mention something is a bit ridiculous. It's one thing to say the Bible doesn't say "this" or "that", but another thing to say we must then "believe" something about the missing information.....

In this case he seems to be saying "we must believe something based on the Bible not directly stating otherwise.

This reminded me of a video I saw a while back. In this case, the man in the video was Islamic and was fighting "science" because of issues that were not stated in the Qur'an. I believe the issue was that he defied the belief that the earth revolves around the sun, and that it was round like a globe. He vigorously defended the earth-centric and flat-earth theories based on the fact that a round earth is not mentioned in the Qur'an. He believed that all of the science that we study were lies, trying to deceive people.

While this is a very extreme case, and from another religion, we have to remember that it isn't a completely isolated case. Some people stick very strictly to their interpretation of the Bible and do not stray from that. Any attempts we make to correctly read the Scripture is viewed by them as defensive, controversial, or some part of a conspiracy.
 
My two cents worth. For those who believe that signs and wonders have stopped with the apostles. On what bases do you believe that - surely there are more verses than the one found in Corinthians because the interpretation that tongues and prophecies will cease is varied? The ones who believe that tongues and prophecies cease base their beliefs that the perfection which is to come relates to the bible or the completion of scriptures. Others like myself believe that signs and wonders will cease when the end comes and all believers are worshiping in heaven. When Jesus returns (still to come) He will come from heaven and the entire world will see Him - that my friends is the very definition of signs and wonders, so in essence they have not stopped.

What does worry me is the number of false miracles we see - but the word does warn us and tell us how to discern the truth. Don't let fear of the false change your beliefs in the truth.

I have personally seen miracles happen and always every time God gets the glory - not man.

God Bless
 

Ginger

Inactive
I agree with you, Kevin, I think.....

I do believe in miracles and signs, but the purpose has changed since the Apostolic era. All you have to do is look at the difference between the fruits of signs from Biblical times to modern times.

The signs we are seeing today are abundant and abundantly leading people astray - of their own free will to chase selfish desires.

Signs from God are intended to draw one to God, to serve God, to believe in Christ Jesus!

But the signs and wonders we hear about today draw people to a false god - usually with promises of wealth and power.

If thousands and thousands of people are being raised from the dead and cured of terminal illnesses, (in third world countries) where are the headlines?????

Those people aren't coming to God because a relative was raised. They come to God because a missionary witnessed to them thru his actions!

Think about it! Think about what the Bible teaches us about human beings reacting to God's miracles and their complaining instead of glorifying. "Did you bring us out into the dessert to die?"

If all those thousands and thousands of dead were really raised where is no one grumbling over the problems it's causing in poor countries. Why is no one trying to explain it away? Why is Christianity dying instead of growing?

Yes, true Christianity is dying and rapidly being replaced with false christianity filled with heresy.

Didn't someone recently post on Chrislam or something like that?

What happens to God's people when they mixed truth with paganism? And that is what is happening.

So, while I absolutely believe in miracles and signs and even visions, I believe 99% of what is being proclaim as miracles from God are delusions from gods given to those willingly, yet unwittingly being led astray.
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1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

if i might expand on the point to note about this passage that i mentioned at the end of my previous post. When Paul said this he already had the OT Scriptures. He already had the teachings of the other Apostles as well as the knowledge granted him by the indwelling Holy Spirit. In short Paul had what we today have excepting John's Revelation. He had the indwelling Holy Spirit and the word of the Prophets and Apostles (ie. the Bible).

But Paul having as much and probably more knowledge as we do did not count it perfect but as "seeing through a glass darkly". The thing to note with this passage is the last sentence. Even today we do NOT see fully but in part only for even now we know ONLY what has been revealed by the Prophets and the Apostles. The SAME knowledge Paul had. We do not yet see the Lord or Jesus face-to-face.

Paul declares that these things SHALL be when the Perfect ('one") HAS come. That they are not yet is clear evidence that the "perfect" of which Paul speaks has NOT yet come. Therefore it CANNOT be a reference to the Bible.
 
I didn't hear someone here that said the signs and wonders have stopped.

We are just warned not to believe every thing that gives glory to man nor to denomination whose agenda is, but not limited to, divide the Church.
 
PS: (ran out of time to edit)

Something we must understand is what Paul means by "9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part".

What Paul is saying is that part of what we teach WE know to be a fact by our own knowledge of reality. But part of what we teach we know only by faith and trust in the word of the Lord for they are things of Heaven, of the future, of the past and of other things we cannot yet know firsthand. In THOSE things we teach not from knowledge but from the word of the Lord. In those things we speak forth not our own knowledge but the word of the Lord.. Ie. we prophesy.

BUT a time is coming when WE too will know ALL things firsthand. OUR knowledge through OUR oneness with the Father and the Son will also be perfect and complete.
 
I didn't hear someone here that said the signs and wonders have stopped.

We are just warned not to believe every thing that gives glory to man nor to denomination whose agenda is, but not limited to, divide the Church.
Okay, I posted this while I was in the middle of showing a video to my son on the computer and washing my pot.

I was reading Ginger's post only and realized that there are who believe that they have stopped. So my apologies.
 

Ginger

Inactive
Okay, I posted this while I was in the middle of showing a video to my son on the computer and washing my pot.

I was reading Ginger's post only and realized that there are who believe that they have stopped. So my apologies.

I didn't say they have stopped. I said that false signs and wonders that we are warned about are abounding! And many are rushing into deception. I think most people don't even recognized the true miracles from God because they are chasing after fantasies, which for some reason seem more appealing to them.

When miracles were seen in the New Testament there were credible witnesses - even the Pharisses could not deny when someone had been healed of paralysis or risen from the dead!!!! Instead they denied Jesus accusing him of being possessed by a demon!

The true miracles are dismissed by the unbelieving World as coincidence or explained away by science.

The false miracles are simply claimed without credible witness and have no one disputing there legitimacy in a manner that ack nowledges the ebvent took place. Do you see what I am saying?

I say I don't believe it happened because there is no proof or evidence to suppoirt it other than a rumor that something happened on the other side of the World.

If it really happened someone would actually be investigating it and coming up with explanations as to how it could have happened according to knowledge available to man.

But make no mistake! I do believe in miracles!

Ginger
 

Panda

Sr Mod/Webmaster
Staff member
Senior Moderator
I've watched some of the same televangelists that we have all seen. I've seen a lot of healing. I've certainly seen a lot that I put a massive amount of doubt on, partly because I know a few people who have been "healed" in this way. That isn't to say it's all fake, but I just haven't seen the real thing on TV yet.

However, I have seen the real thing. God is the great healer. Last year I was blessed to meet someone who was paralyzed in an accident about 30 years ago. 6 months ago, she was healed in a small anointing service and she can now walk. Sure, I don't know her personally. I can't say that I know without any doubt that she was paralyzed. I do know her family. I know her twin sister, her mother, her pastor, and most of the rest of the congregation that saw her in a wheelchair for 30 years. All I can say, is if she faked that, she did a pretty good job of convincing hundreds of people that she met and knew intimately for 30 years.
 
I didn't say they have stopped. I said that false signs and wonders that we are warned about are abounding! And many are rushing into deception. I think most people don't even recognized the true miracles from God because they are chasing after fantasies, which for some reason seem more appealing to them.

When miracles were seen in the New Testament there were credible witnesses - even the Pharisses could not deny when someone had been healed of paralysis or risen from the dead!!!! Instead they denied Jesus accusing him of being possessed by a demon!

The true miracles are dismissed by the unbelieving World as coincidence or explained away by science.

The false miracles are simply claimed without credible witness and have no one disputing there legitimacy in a manner that ack nowledges the ebvent took place. Do you see what I am saying?

I say I don't believe it happened because there is no proof or evidence to suppoirt it other than a rumor that something happened on the other side of the World.

If it really happened someone would actually be investigating it and coming up with explanations as to how it could have happened according to knowledge available to man.

But make no mistake! I do believe in miracles!

Ginger
Ginger, I know that you do believe in signs and wonders. I think I did not support my statement that you've quoted very well but I do agree and understand what you're saying. For this misunderstanding, I apologize as well. Who I was referring to is that there are people who said that they've stopped due to misinterpretation in 1 Corinthians.
 
I know of someone who was (that part I can vouch for) in a wheelchair for years being able to walk again but I'm uncertain as to whether or not it would be classed as a miracle as I don't know what the original injury was or whether the prognosis did allow for some possibility of recovery, whether a new medical treatment might have stimulated it, whether what was preventing walking could have been classed as psychological, etc.

I suppose that leads me one thing that troubles/puzzles me. While I'm not suggesting that such a thing could not happen, I'm not aware of any (not that there still wouldn't be other "explanations") "beyond any doubt" cases, eg. a person dead for a day being raised or before and after scans proving that say a spinal chord was severed one day and healed the next. Maybe I'm just being a Thomas with some things - I don't know...

With some others, suffice it to say I'm plain suspicious.
 

Ginger

Inactive
No need to apologize, Gemma. I just wanted to be sure I hadn't misled anyone concerning my position. For writer, I still sometimes fail to state my case clearly. :)
 
I see it like this.

Focus on Jesus, do His will and try by all means to live a holy life bringing glory to God. Be obedient to the Holy Spirit. If He tells us to pray for the sick - do so, not seeking miracles for the sake of miracles but seeking miracles to set people free and to glorify God. If He tells us to prophesy - do so to build up the church and bring glory to God. Let us not focus on "signs and wonders" to prove the existence of God - the Pharisees did so and were rebuked for their efforts. Rather lets be obedient to the Holy Spirit - empowering ministry to bring the message of the gospel to the lost, not seeking self glorification, money, recognition or any other self seeking motivation. Our only motivation should be to serve God to bring all the glory and honour to Him - deserving nothing for ourselves. We should minister in the power of the Holy Spirit simply because any other way is manmade.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is very important in the life of any Christian - without the Holy Spirit we do things in our own strength which eventually leads to pride. I am often humbled to see the mighty power of the Holy Spirit working through weak, sinful vessels, knowing that without Him, our work is lifeless.

Jobanjo - you have just highlighted that miracles are often doubted after the effect. We should glorify God that a healing took place - His work no matter how it happened and worship Him for who He is. Miracles are often short term indicators of Gods goodness - hence the reason Joshua told the Israelites to build memorials so future generations will not forget what God has done. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is the long term work - changing peoples hearts to God, not only through miracles but through deep seated heart conviction - convicting the lost to such an extent that even the most hardened person can be brought to their knees in tears of remorse and repentance.

God bless
 
I see it like this.

Focus on Jesus, do His will and try by all means to live a holy life bringing glory to God. Be obedient to the Holy Spirit. If He tells us to pray for the sick - do so, not seeking miracles for the sake of miracles but seeking miracles to set people free and to glorify God. If He tells us to prophesy - do so to build up the church and bring glory to God. Let us not focus on "signs and wonders" to prove the existence of God - the Pharisees did so and were rebuked for their efforts. Rather lets be obedient to the Holy Spirit - empowering ministry to bring the message of the gospel to the lost, not seeking self glorification, money, recognition or any other self seeking motivation. Our only motivation should be to serve God to bring all the glory and honour to Him - deserving nothing for ourselves. We should minister in the power of the Holy Spirit simply because any other way is manmade.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is very important in the life of any Christian - without the Holy Spirit we do things in our own strength which eventually leads to pride. I am often humbled to see the mighty power of the Holy Spirit working through weak, sinful vessels, knowing that without Him, our work is lifeless.

Jobanjo - you have just highlighted that miracles are often doubted after the effect. We should glorify God that a healing took place - His work no matter how it happened and worship Him for who He is. Miracles are often short term indicators of Gods goodness - hence the reason Joshua told the Israelites to build memorials so future generations will not forget what God has done. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is the long term work - changing peoples hearts to God, not only through miracles but through deep seated heart conviction - convicting the lost to such an extent that even the most hardened person can be brought to their knees in tears of remorse and repentance.

God bless

Well said.
 

Ginger

Inactive
I see it like this.

.....you have just highlighted that miracles are often doubted after the effect. We should glorify God that a healing took place .........

All you said was very well stated, Kevin!

My issue is and always has been discernment. As Christians ,we need to discern whether there was a miracle or a trick; whether God is at work or a demon; and never, ever start following a person because of a miracle or sign - the Scriptures warn us.

I hear people defend those I beieve are false prophets, by saying "Oh, he always gives the credit to God!" But that is not really true..... he says those words, "Praise, God," but that is not what is in his heart - it's part of the con job.

And there are those who believe they are serving God, but Luke tells us about them:

Matthew 7:
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'


When you said "focus on Jesus" that really sums it up. When we allow ourselves to fall in awe of the miracles, we seem to lose sight of Jesus on our focus becomes set on the person being used, despite our "praises to God" In the case of a false prophet, this opens the door to be deceived.


I know people hate it when I talk about all the false teachers/prophets..... but how many of these men deny Christ on National television and then says they misspoke on their Website where they unbelieving, unsaved world will not see it? They are talking out of both sides of their mouth and with every word, condemn themselves.


They are charismatic, articulate men and women, but they are preaching a Gospel I am not familiar with. Their god promises temporary success and riches in this lifetime, my God promises a world that hates me because of Him, but followed by paradise for eternity when I return home.
 
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