Back to the Law?

Musicmaster

Musicmaster

I've been studying about the law of Moses, ordinances, commands...whatever one may choose to call them, and what Paul had to say about them in how they relate to the Gentile and Jewish followers of Yeshua. What drove me to this is the growing number of professing believers who are going about and teaching others that we as Christians are required to seek to obey "God's law," which is the ten commandments and/or the law of Moses.

Now, I want to make it clear that the polar opposite to going back to obedience to the law is not a matter of disobedience to the point that we can then commit fornication, adultery, idolatry, murder, etc. Not at all. What I've been finding is that Paul had much to say about the law, and how it relates to us today. Paul has already dealt with that argument already. This is not about any freedom to live immoral lives.

What have you folks come to understand about the law in relation to the Christian life in this Church age? What has your studies, if any, revealed to you about the law and commandments?
 
Musicmaster said:
I've been studying about the law of Moses, ordinances, commands...whatever one may choose to call them, and what Paul had to say about them in how they relate to the Gentile and Jewish followers of Yeshua. What drove me to this is the growing number of professing believers who are going about and teaching others that we as Christians are required to seek to obey "God's law," which is the ten commandments and/or the law of Moses. Now, I want to make it clear that the polar opposite to going back to obedience to the law is not a matter of disobedience to the point that we can then commit fornication, adultery, idolatry, murder, etc. Not at all. What I've been finding is that Paul had much to say about the law, and how it relates to us today. Paul has already dealt with that argument already. This is not about any freedom to live immoral lives. What have you folks come to understand about the law in relation to the Christian life in this Church age? What has your studies, if any, revealed to you about the law and commandments?
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Hello Musicmaster;

Welcome to Christian Forum Site and we hope you enjoy the fellowship with your new friends in Christ.

I'm reading your convictions but now please elaborate more on "what God is teaching us" in Back to the Law.

God bless you, Musicmaster and your family.
 
Well, there are a number of singular verses one could pull up that answer this. For example:

[Gal 5:4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I've seen some who have gone the way of going back to the law argue that this verse, in context, is a reference to circumcision, which it is true that Paul did indeed make use of circumcision as the example the Galatians were intimately familiar given that the Judaisers made use of that one item singled out from all the rest of the law of Moses. It was one of the chief battering ram weapons foisted upon the Gentiles. The problem with the contextual limitation argument is that the wording of that one verse speaks more broadly, making specific reference to the "law" in general. To me, that's significant.

I could quote a slew of other verses, but wanted to capture some thoughts from others as to their studies. I don't go through life assuming I've arrived at the position of absolute truth, although I do seek absolute truth in all things.
 
Oh, before I forget, one of the key terms in that verse, "justified" according to Thayer's Greek lexicon, in that grammatical construct and sentence meaning, is defined as "to judge, pronounce, declare righteous and therefore acceptable in obeying the law, or by keeping it."

Another key term in that sentence, "grace," is defined in that context and grammatical construct as, "kindness which bestows upon one what he has not deserved, to be subject to the power of grace..."

Pretty powerful stuff, and yet I continue to encounter those who argue that verse and its context is an appeal to not following the traditions the Jews added to the word of God, thus making it of no effect. Throughout that section, I can't find any reference to "tradition" or anything else apart from the very law of Moses and a command for circumcision in particular.

Additionally, the Greek word translated "law" is in fact a reference to "the law of Moses, under the dominion of the law."

Once I clarified that, among other items of interest that were downplayed by some, I found it impossible to believe in any attempt to spiritualize the passage into saying whatever others want it to say in support of their chosen beliefs.

Thoughts?
 
Hello Musicmaster;

Its a fact that we face a serious problem in the church and that incorrect teaching of the Law of Moses, the 10 Commandments and the Gospels.

The first 4 Commandments were the teachings of our relationship with God, while the last 6 were commandments we could not keep. This distinguishes from Jesus who fulfilled these commandments by adding the Love Commandments, for example, His justice, mercy and faith as he refuted the teachers and Pharisees of the Law. In John 13:34-35, Jesus teaches a profound command,

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

I tell you the truth, in my testimony and witness, I am encouraged to see proper teaching of the Word in these times, diligent discipleship starting in my own backyard, community and in the church.

Seasoned Christians are out there, serving tirelessly to reach the Gospel enabling those who don't know Jesus, and have the opportunity for a lasting relationship with Him.

Yes, I'm encouraged but,

Let the world beware! In support of your thread, there is a Lot of WORK to be done and that's growing in the Word, ministers who are seriously striving to teach sound doctrine in obedience to God.

There's more to discuss. I have a Bible study to prepare and will be back later this evening.

God bless you, brother, and your family. I hope this will uplift all of us.
 
bobinfaith said:
Hello Musicmaster;

Its a fact that we face a serious problem in the church and that incorrect teaching of the Law of Moses, the 10 Commandments and the Gospels.
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Therein is the reason I brought forth this topic as my first, as it touches on a very serious issue. There is a movement called "Hebrew Roots" that is taking over large numbers of smaller church organizations all across the country. When I first encountered these folks, I was dumbfounded. Their arguments seemed credible since I had not delved so deeply into this topic before, although I have SDA friends, one of whom is a minister in one of their church organizations; so I'm well acquainted with the sabbath beliefs of that religion.[/QUOTE]

Seasoned Christians are out there, serving tirelessly to reach the Gospel enabling those who don't know Jesus, and have the opportunity for a lasting relationship with Him.
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I've been saying for some time now that this world needs more spiritual giants who are well equipped with knowledge, wisdom, love and all else the Lord gives to grow people to the stature that they are useful in the Hands of the Most High.

God bless you, brother, and your family. I hope this will uplift all of us.
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Blessings to you and yours as well.
 
[Gal 5:14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Wow. That's some heavy stuff. One will notice that this verse clearly says "For all the law...," not some, not most, but all.

Time and time again, we see in God's word what the Lord thinks about the law in reference to us in the Church age:

[Rom. 13:8, 10] 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. ... 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

[James 2:8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

It seems so clear. For those who teach that going back to the law somehow earns them favor with God, we have the following:

[Gal. 5:3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

We can see from this that just trying to keep one item in the law makes one responsible for keeping all the law of Moses. And then we see this:

[James 2:10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

So we can see that it's a no-win situation trying to go back to keep just one, or all, of the law.

[2 Cor. 3:6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Therefore, going back to keeping the letter of one or all of the law, it binds one to the requirement for perfection in the keeping of all the law for grace to apply, but the Jews learned the hard way that no man can keep the written law perfectly. This helps us to understand how the law is a bondage, not the freedom we have in Christ Jesus.

What came through loud and clear to me in the studies I have done on this topic is that any violation of godly love toward God and others is a violation of of one and all of the law of Moses. That was a revelation to me like no other. It was earth shaking (so to speak).
 
Musicmaster said:
Therein is the reason I brought forth this topic as my first, as it touches on a very serious issue. There is a movement called "Hebrew Roots" that is taking over large numbers of smaller church organizations all across the country. When I first encountered these folks, I was dumbfounded. Their arguments seemed credible since I had not delved so deeply into this topic before, although I have SDA friends, one of whom is a minister in one of their church organizations; so I'm well acquainted with the sabbath beliefs of that religion.
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I've been saying for some time now that this world needs more spiritual giants who are well equipped with knowledge, wisdom, love and all else the Lord gives to grow people to the stature that they are useful in the Hands of the Most High.
Blessings to you and yours as well.
[/QUOTE]

Hello Musicmaster;

Thank you for sharing further and what came to mind is a cult called Hebraic Roots, or Hebrew Roots. Their movement is about a 100 years old. I don't have extensive knowledge with Hebrew Roots, but I can say they are heretical for these two reasons alone;

They comprise a mix of Jewish, non-Jewish, Christian and non-Christians, and combine their adaption of Mosaic Torah teaching. There is a serious flaw to this and here are my arguments;

Didn't Moses remind the people in Deuteronomy 18:15-22 that Jesus' death would fulfill all the law God had given him on Sinai?

Does this now nullify what Jesus teaches in Luke 24:27?

These are but two examples so, do we "change the rules" in God's written Word?

One slant to the true Word of God is enough. All Heretics and false teachings are my personal goliaths and should be for all who need to be equipped with the wisdom but a serious emphasis on Truth and the Word.
 
Musicmaster said:
[Gal 5:14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Therefore, going back to keeping the letter of one or all of the law, it binds one to the requirement for perfection in the keeping of all the law for grace to apply, but the Jews learned the hard way that no man can keep the written law perfectly. This helps us to understand how the law is a bondage, not the freedom we have in Christ Jesus. What came through loud and clear to me in the studies I have done on this topic is that any violation of godly love toward God and others is a violation of of one and all of the law of Moses. That was a revelation to me like no other. It was earth shaking (so to speak).
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CPerkins said:
I'd never heard of the Hebrew roots movement until now. Thanks bringing this up.

I found this link though the discusses the dangers of the movement.
Dangers of the Hebrew Roots Movement | Answers in Genesis

cp
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Hello Musicmaster and Chuck;

This is not a movement to be taken lightly along with other heresies, therefore, a one sentence explanation cannot be summed up.

God bless you, brothers.
 
Thank you both. There's a channel on Youtube that goes by, I think it's called "119 Ministries," and they have guys who have made videos that are dangerous because they sound so convincing. People need to be warned about this movement. It's a radical departure from the grace of God.

[Galatians 3:19] Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

See that? The law came about because of the transgressions of the nation Israel after she had been led out of captivity in Egypt. The people made a golden calf to worship at the base of Mt. Sinai, and many perished as a result. Then, they complained and groaned while traversing through the desert, complaining against Moses and the Lord. Their stiff-necked ways along the path of transgression and severe lack of faith in the Lord who had done so much for them bought them death in the desert, giving only the next generation the opportunity to take possession of the promised land.

So, in this verse, the law was given until "...the seed should come..." The law has not passed away, not by any means. I say that because Ezekiel 40 - 48 shows us that the law will once again be brought back full force in the Millennial Reign of Christ Jesus. Sacrifices will resume under the law.

The Hebrew Roots movement, from what I've seen is comprised mostly of Gentiles. Interestingly, they teach that the law concerning sacrifices has been fulfilled by Christ, and are therefore not binding. Its followers asked me why there is such a problem with seeking to obey the law of God. They believed that seeking to obey the law would earn them reward and treasure in Heaven. When I asked for biblical references, they provided some obscure verses, woven together into the tattered tapestry of their doctrinal blanket.

One question I considered in my thinking is why so many would want to go back to the captivity and death of the law, and the only thing that made sense is our sinful desire to push works as the means by which we can try to earn at least some merit for our salvation. Although some of them tried to tone it down to a seemingly "harmless" level of mere rewards for obedience, openly admitting it was not a matter of salvation, some of them squirm about to make their beliefs more palatable sounding.

[Hebrews 10:1-4] 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year. 4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The law, therefore, was suspended for the Church age, but will once again be reinstated upon the Jews when they are finally in the Kingdom of Heaven. In this Church age, we are in the Kingdom of God, but they lived in the past in the Kingdom of Heaven, and will once again be back in that kingdom. The vast distinction between the Church and Israel are striking. Far too often people confuse the Kingdom of God with the Kingdom of Heaven. The Bible draws a distinction, although subtle if one is not careful to observe that distinction.

But the passion for Israel is evident:

[Romans 10:1-4] 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

What a profound reasoning to drive us away from the righteousness of the law, which is unobtainable through our attempts at adherence. Yes, the law is indeed righteous, but because we can't keep it perfectly as did only Jesus, we need Christ as the only way to salvation. Reward in Heaven is nowhere identified as our works of the law.

[Galatians 2:16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

As we can see, works of the law cannot bring us to justification in the eyes of the Lord. How, then, can there be other reward for adherence to a select few of the laws? Our rewards in Heaven are tied to spiritual aspects of our lives, such as the fruits of the Spirit flowing out from us, and seeking to bring others to Christ, giving to meet needs, and many other things that are an outflow of our love for God and for others.

[Galatians 3:10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

This again drives home the fact that, unless one obeys perfectly all the law, he is cursed. The people who are seeking to convince you and me of the necessity for going back to the law, whether knowingly or not, are seeking to bring others under the curse of the law along with themselves.

How tragic this is indeed. We must recognize that deep seated desires within the wicked heart can veil a desire to achieve salvation through works under the guise of earning rewards in Heaven. When I asked them if they had built a railing around their roof, they grew strangely silent. After all, that's one of the 613.

[Heb 8:7-12] 7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The fault within the first covenant is in man's inability to live it perfectly, as did only Christ Jesus.

[Romans 3:27] Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Amen
 
The [Hebrew Roots] movement people on another large forum board also tried to convince me that the Gentile believers in the roman provinces regularly attended Jewish synagogue in order to learn the law of Moses so that they could obey it. They pointed out what they thought were related verses that, upon study, didn't correlate to the conclusion they were trying to force upon those verses. When I asked about Paul washing his hands of the synagogues on account of the massive resistance the Gospel was met with in those places, they continued in their demands that the Gentiles were welcome to learn the law in those places.

Frankly, given how large a population the Church in each city and province had become, I had doubts the synagogues could even accommodate the Gentile converts. To go even further, the Gentiles would certainly not be tolerated, especially in the more outlying provinces, where cleanliness among the Gentiles wasn't in keeping with Jewish demands for cleanliness.

My findings in Acts indicated that, although there were Gentile Greeks in the synagogue when Paul preached, and who also wanted to hear more, they were proselytes to Judaism, not men who were already of Christ, and yet the HR adherents saw that as license to assume upon the scriptures the notion of Gentile followers of Christ Jesus were therefore attending synagogue to learn the law of Moses, and that they were instructed to do so by Paul and Barnabus and Timothy, even though there is no such recorded instruction. They also contended that Paul also taught the law of Moses to the churches as a part of teaching them about Christ.

As with any topic, teachings from silence are always suspect for large doses of subjectivity. My eyes would become sore at times from rolling upwards toward the heavens at some of the horrendously absurd notions that crowd had come to embrace.

What also occurred to me is how close the HR movement is to the beliefs of my SDA friends, given that they fully embrace the ten commandments as still binding upon us who are in Christ Jesus, which includes sabbath keeping. I haven't yet had a chance to discuss with them about this movement's increasing influences and growth in numbers, which better enables them to infiltrate other churches. Given the level of ignorance about God's word that most professing believers embrace with gusto, they are prime targets. One need only observe the types that JW's and Mormons find in the churchianity population to more easily drag over into their belief systems.

I was one of those many dupes, years ago, in my 20's, who converted over to Mormonism. I was too ignorant of what the Mormons believed at the deeper levels they never discuss until they get you entrenched into their religion. Unfortunately for them, my Bible Baptist background drove me to start asking questions about their extra-biblical beliefs, and the anger at any member daring to question the top level teachings they hold so dear pushed me backward into doing a more serious rethink on what I had gotten myself into.

After about a year of their nonsense, I determined it was time to knock the dust off my feet at the door and move on. What I will say, however, in defense of the Mormon way of things is that they are more like what all our evangelical churches should be like. The Mormons are more family like than 99% of all so-called "protestant" churches I have ever attended or visited. They are close-knit, and do many activities together at almost every opportunity they can. Every weekend, several families would open up their homes to gatherings for food and fellowship. Those who had large hot tubs would attract the Mormon girls in their skimpy bathing suits (this was in the Coa Coa Beach area of the eastern coast) to get us guys looking after them with lust, and my young eyes were as taken captive as any other young fella with fire coursing through his veins.

So, back on the topic of the law, I like polling other people's thoughts about the law of Moses and the ten commandments, and how they relate to the understanding of other professing believers. Paul was so clear on this topic that it staggers the imagination as to how people can become so blinded by their desire to please and impress God with the strength of their own arm. They fail to remember, or don't even know, that it's in weakness that God's power is made perfect. I weep at times for those who are caught up by the demonic deceptions.

The conclusion to this is that the only thing that awaits anyone who thinks they can go back to obeying even just one of the laws makes them bound to them all, and in violating just one of them at any point, they become guilty of them all...thus having fallen from grace. Therein is the reason the Jews had to ritualistically purify themselves through blood sacrifices and washings when they were under the law. Any Christian who willfully enslaves themselves to the law are bound to not only perfect obedience to the letter that killeth, but also to ceremonial cleansing through blood sacrifices. They can never mind the idea that Christ fulfilled those requirements, which He did, but they will once again become necessary for the Jewish people in the Millennial Kingdom where Christ will reign physically from the temple. Even the Gentile families from each nation will be required to go on pilgrimage every year for the feast of tabernacles in Jerusalem, and those who don't attend will suffer droughts and pestilence in the Millennial Kingdom. That is the force and power of the law as enforced by Christ in His physical presence on this earth.

Please capture the implications of what I have just said. The HR movement people are already guilty of sin under the law in their denial for the requirement to offer up blood sacrifices by a qualified priest in order to be ceremonially (ritualistically) and temporally clean. They are ignorant and indifferent to the horrible chains of bondage they have shackled themselves into. One cannot legitimately cast aside any part of the law they think is no longer binding. Jesus said that not one jot nor tittle has passed form the law, which disqualifies the HR leadership and false teachers from subjectively revoking those parts of the law that require a temple with a fully functional priesthood, and of the proper bloodline lineage, to perform. It is devils/demons that encourage this teaching contrary to the written word of God as penned by Paul of Tarsus, the "apostle to the Gentiles."

May you be edified and strengthened in your understanding for the importance of the love for God and for others that is the complete fulfillment of all the law. Even when our love is imperfect, it is written that if we sin, we have an advocate with the father, the very Christ Jesus who allowed Himself to be nailed to that cross. Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and we went down into that greave with Him, and were raised up a new creation in Him. The law of God written in our hearts is the law of love, which keeps us from breaking the law of Moses. That is how we obey the law to the pleasure of God, as a sweet aroma unto His Throne.
 
I would offer. I think a good place to start is looking at the doctrine of the “witness of God” made up of two .One seen the temporal the other not seen the eternal

A picture of the Father and Son working together in perfect harmony and mutual submission . They working as one bring us the peace of His understanding. . that which can work in mankind.

No father no son, no son no father .

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

It would appear the word “two” is used to represent the one perfect witness of God not seen, the greater witness that works in mankind seen.

The law of God’s good news is the whole bible .Without it all perishes and with it some also do.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

Moses is used to signify the letter (scripture) of law pronouncing all are dead in trespasses and sin, while the prophets beginning with Elijah. . the law of faith the unseen resurrection power.

Romans 7:6But now we are delivered from the law, that being "dead wherein" we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

The unseen power signified by the prophets who were moved by the power to proclaim his living abiding word.

The law of God (scripture as it is written ) the visible witness of God (signified by Moses) it is coupled with the unseen witness of faith or labor of God's Love . (signified by the word of God spoken through the prophet Elias. So then it is shown in two ways . . . to the law and or with the prophets, or to Moses and and Elijah. Those two laws working together form one new perfect law or complete law. (Psalm 19 ) Apart from each other there can be no grace. Resulting in death the letter

Moses and the prophets or or saying the same thing. . Moses and Elias .With Elias representing all the prophets again all together make up the one perfect witness of God the perfect law (old and new testement) .

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Moses and the prophets, (the witness of God)The witness of two.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me

Again two to represent the perfect or complete.

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

In that way we acknowledge it is Christ in us working to both will give us a desire and empower us to do the good pleasure of Him who does make our hearts soft . He completes the whole circuit the perfect . No short circuits with Him . We have his promise in Philippians 1:6 if he has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it as we work with him making our burden lighter. .

The gospel the perfect law as it is written in the Psalm.

Psalm 19: 6-11 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
 
Garee, I also like another verse in the context you referenced in 1 John 2. Verse 27 says:

[1 John 2:27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So, where I fully am in tune with Psalms and other passages about the perfection of the law, its application can and is suspended in relation to the Church in this Church Age. That doesn't violate the intact nature of the law, and its continuance once this Church Age (Kingdom of God) is complete and the world moves back under the Kingdom of Heaven dominance and the law and all its requirements. The video in the above post provides some good insights from a more panoramic vantagepoint of scripture as the law relates to the Church.
 
Garee said:
I would offer. I think a good place to start is looking at the doctrine of the “witness of God” made up of two .One seen the temporal the other not seen the eternal

A picture of the Father and Son working together in perfect harmony and mutual submission . They working as one bring us the peace of His understanding. . that which can work in mankind.

No father no son, no son no father .

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

It would appear the word “two” is used to represent the one perfect witness of God not seen, the greater witness that works in mankind seen.

The law of God’s good news is the whole bible .Without it all perishes and with it some also do.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

Moses is used to signify the letter (scripture) of law pronouncing all are dead in trespasses and sin, while the prophets beginning with Elijah. . the law of faith the unseen resurrection power.

Romans 7:6But now we are delivered from the law, that being "dead wherein" we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

The unseen power signified by the prophets who were moved by the power to proclaim his living abiding word.

The law of God (scripture as it is written ) the visible witness of God (signified by Moses) it is coupled with the unseen witness of faith or labor of God's Love . (signified by the word of God spoken through the prophet Elias. So then it is shown in two ways . . . to the law and or with the prophets, or to Moses and and Elijah. Those two laws working together form one new perfect law or complete law. (Psalm 19 ) Apart from each other there can be no grace. Resulting in death the letter

Moses and the prophets or or saying the same thing. . Moses and Elias .With Elias representing all the prophets again all together make up the one perfect witness of God the perfect law (old and new testement) .

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Moses and the prophets, (the witness of God)The witness of two.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me

Again two to represent the perfect or complete.

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

In that way we acknowledge it is Christ in us working to both will give us a desire and empower us to do the good pleasure of Him who does make our hearts soft . He completes the whole circuit the perfect . No short circuits with Him . We have his promise in Philippians 1:6 if he has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it as we work with him making our burden lighter. .

The gospel the perfect law as it is written in the Psalm.

Psalm 19: 6-11 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
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Nazarene Servant said:
Grace = Jesus + Nothing
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Hello Garee;

After reading many of your posts I am curious, brother, do you teach Bible studies? I'm surprised if you're not.

Your post gave me a shot in the arm and a breath of fresh air. Praise God for giving you a Word this morning.

Hello, Nazarene Servant,

You and I have talked. Each day and night we go into a time of spiritual warfare prayer. The heretics, cults and false teachers will always present their constitution and talking points of the right way to worship their god.

But in your post you only give 3 Words that represent the Way, and the Truth and the Life. That's all I needed to be filled with Hope and Strength.

God bless you, brothers, and thank you.
 
As a Messianic rabbi, I would like to add to this conversation.

I would not consider the "Hebrew Roots" movement as a cult. Not in any sense. When one says; "back to the Law" we are really saying "Back to God's basic instructions" which Israel received at Mt. Sinai. Altogether there were 613 commandments, 10 which were given directly to Moses and the people from the mouth of God,

The people were fearful, and then God called Moshe (Moses) up to the top of the mountain, and He gave him the rest of the 603, which were relayed to the people when Moses came down, yet they were all from God.

Yes, Jesus (Yeshua) fulfilled the "law" or "Torah" which means "instruction" in that He lived a perfect life. But that does not mean we don't have to follow God's instructions, if that were the case, then we might as well go out and rob, kill, lie, etc because those are part of the "law" (I really dislike that word, it confuses people) .

Our sins were nailed to the cross with Yeshua, NOT the law. The law does NOT bring salvation, Yeshua brings salvation to those who believe in His completed work on calvary. And since we are saved by faith, and not through works, our salvation (Yeshuah) is a completed and fulfilled covenant. Yet Yeshua said; If you love me, obey my commandments" yet not for salvation issue, but BECAUSE we are saved, and BECAUSE we love Him, and for future reward sake at the Bema Judgement Seat of Messiah.

NO, we can't obey all 613, because many of these only pertained to the animal sacrificial system, to the Levites, etc, yet there are still many we can follow and obey, the "Moral Law" as some state.

All believers are part of the Commonwealth of Israel. That's the way I see it. It started out with the 12 tribes and the Egyptians that followed the Israelites out of Egypt. They were "grafted in" because they believed and trusted in the blood that was on the doorposts during Passover. That blood symbolized Yeshua's blood. We are also "grafted in"

We are all ONE (Echad) in MESSIAH YESHUA. Jesus never intended that the faith be divided up into so many denominations..

So, NO, the Hebrew Roots movement, the way I see it, is NOT a cult, it is just going back to the basics, and following God's commandments BECAUSE we have received salvation through Yeshua. It is "storing up riches in Heaven"

Thanks for letting me share.

Rabbi Ben Avraham
 
Musicmaster said:
Garee, I also like another verse in the context you referenced in 1 John 2. Verse 27 says:

[1 John 2:27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So, where I fully am in tune with Psalms and other passages about the perfection of the law, its application can and is suspended in relation to the Church in this Church Age. That doesn't violate the intact nature of the law, and its continuance once this Church Age (Kingdom of God) is complete and the world moves back under the Kingdom of Heaven dominance and the law and all its requirements. The video in the above post provides some good insights from a more panoramic vantagepoint of scripture as the law relates to the Church.
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Yes good insights. The gentiles are not under the cerimoinal laws as shadows of His eternal rest. When we do recive the the end of our new faith the promise of the new incoruptible body the bride of Christ the church. Today because we as sons of God are yoked with him who works with us our burden is made lighter.
 
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