Bible Problem

[netchaplain]

Netch when looking upon the early church fathers as Roman Catholics that would come under the Ante Nicene fathers period.

We may be talking about different church fathers, also know as Apostolic Fathers. Their writings never became part of the Canon: The Apostolic Fathers, also known as the Ante-Nicene Fathers, were core Christian theologians among the Church Fathers who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles or to have been significantly influenced by them.[1] Their writings, though widely circulated in early Christianity, were not included in the canon of the New Testament.

They wrote material like

• The First Epistle of Clement
• The Second Epistle of Clement
• Martyrium Ignatii
• Epistle of Polycarp
• Martyrdom of Polycarp
  • Fragments of the writings of Papias of Hierapolis, which have survived as quotations in later writers
  • One short fragment of the Apology of Quadratus of Athens
  • The Didache
  • The Epistle of Barnabas
  • The Epistle to Diognetus[note 1]
  • The Shepherd of Hermas

All or most of these works were originally written in Greek. Older English translations of these works can be found online in the Ante-Nicene Fathers series on the Christian Classics Ethereal Library website. -Wikipedia


Not sure if the RCC actually started with Christ as claimed by them, but it is no doubt their not Christian based due to the multitude of antichristian doctrines.

 

[crossnote]

Not sure if the RCC actually started with Christ as claimed by them, but it is no doubt their not Christian based due to the multitude of antichristian doctrines.

That would be an interesting research. My understanding is that they are a hybrid faith; a blend of early Christianity and pagan beliefs arising when Constantine declared peace with the Church. But who knows, that too may be 'sensible' myth.

 

[netchaplain]

.Nor do I see any evidence that Justin Martyr, Tatian, Clement of Alexandria, or Origen produced any Greek New Testament manuscripts.

Their manuscripts, weather or not Greek, were corrupt manuscripts and they were the ones discarded by the early church scribes as being errant, and so were not for copying usage. That's why they are three of the oldest manuscripts, Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus; only three manuscripts compare to multiples of thousands of manuscripts which were copies of worn out copies. The scribe would copy a too worn out copy and then destroy the exemplar. The Western Text (primarily the three mention here) didn't have a chance to where out like the Majority Text manuscripts did.

I admit I am a little inaccurate when it comes to dating certain things, but everything I'm sharing is true; and I also believe most Christians will never know the truth of these thing, but Christ will make up for it at His coming!

There are also numerous other writers with their books that agree with Dr. Otis.

I also wanted to thank you for much of what you share, and appreciate your studious labors. But I believe they are in the wrong direction my Brother.

 

[netchaplain]

That would be an interesting research. My understanding is that they are a hybrid faith; a blend of early Christianity and pagan beliefs arising when Constantine declared peace with the Church. But who knows, that too may be 'sensible' myth.

One false and significant of their doctrines is the teaching of Immaculate Conception; "the conception of the Virgin Mary in which as decreed in Roman Catholic dogma her soul was preserved free from original sin by divine grace."

There are many teachings like this of which the members aren't aware, because they do not desire others to read the Bible. That's why they burned Tyndale in Vilvorde, outside Brussels in Belgium on Aug. 6, 1536. The RCC is the only religion that persecuted Christians for translating the Bible from Greek and Latin into English (and I could present much more travesties of the RCC). I don't understand how they got so many members (world largest denomination), other than the members don't read much of the Word.

I also believe there are some members that keep coming out of that so called church that are truly seeking truth. There's only one reason why one would not know truth, by not truly seeking it to live by! ("seek and ye shall find").

 

[Prim90]

We may be talking about different church fathers, also know as Apostolic Fathers. Their writings never became part of the Canon: The Apostolic Fathers, also known as the Ante-Nicene Fathers, were core Christian theologians among the Church Fathers who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles or to have been significantly influenced by them.[1] Their writings, though widely circulated in early Christianity, were not included in the canon of the New Testament.

They wrote material like

• The First Epistle of Clement
• The Second Epistle of Clement
• Martyrium Ignatii
• Epistle of Polycarp
• Martyrdom of Polycarp
  • Fragments of the writings of Papias of Hierapolis, which have survived as quotations in later writers
  • One short fragment of the Apology of Quadratus of Athens
  • The Didache
  • The Epistle of Barnabas
  • The Epistle to Diognetus[note 1]
  • The Shepherd of Hermas

All or most of these works were originally written in Greek. Older English translations of these works can be found online in the Ante-Nicene Fathers series on the Christian Classics Ethereal Library website. -Wikipedia


Not sure if the RCC actually started with Christ as claimed by them, but it is no doubt their not Christian based due to the multitude of antichristian doctrines.

Netch point taken. Yes some of the earlier Ante Nicene Fathers would have known some of the apostles. But I think the Ante Nicene period goes up to around the period of the 4th -5th century so a majority of the writers within that period wouldn’t have known the Apostles As to the Roman Catholic Church officially coming under that name. That was around 7th century. But there was no problem in their claiming their spiritual roots back to Jesus Christ and the apostolic church. After all our Christian spiritual roots begin there . The bigger problem came when they excluded every other Christian faith in the Roman Empire or for that matter any other Christian in the world of that birth right who wasn’t Roman Catholic. And that they were not part of the holy church until they converted. And of course eventually you had the Roman bishops later claims to being the head of the entire church. The Orthodox Church certainly wasn’t having any of it along with other practicing Christian faiths

 

[Origen]

Their manuscripts, weather or not Greek, were corrupt manuscripts and they were the ones discarded by the early church scribes as being errant, and so were not for copying usage. That's why they are three of the oldest manuscripts, Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus; only three manuscripts compare to multiples of thousands of manuscripts which were copies of worn out copies. The scribe would copy a too worn out copy and then destroy the exemplar. The Western Text (primarily the three mention here) didn't have a chance to where out like the Majority Text manuscripts did.

I admit I am a little inaccurate when it comes to dating certain things, but everything I'm sharing is true; and I also believe most Christians will never know the truth of these thing, but Christ will make up for it at His coming!

There are also numerous other writers with their books that agree with Dr. Otis.

I also wanted to thank you for much of what you share, and appreciate your studious labors. But I believe they are in the wrong direction my Brother.

I am sorry but this is nothing more than a series ad hoc claims lacking any concrete verifiable evidence.

Their manuscripts, weather or not Greek, were corrupt manuscripts and they were the ones discarded by the early church scribes as being errant, and so were not for copying usage.

Ad hoc claim lacking any verifiable evidence.

That's why they are three of the oldest manuscripts, Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus; only three manuscripts compare to multiples of thousands of manuscripts which were copies of worn out copies.

Another ad hoc claim lacking verifiable evidence, but also begging the question, and a circular argument.

The scribe would copy a too worn out copy and then destroy the exemplar.

Again, ad hoc. Please cite an early primary source for verifiable.

The Western Text (primarily the three mention here) didn't have a chance to where out like the Majority Text manuscripts did.

This statement is completely false. Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus are NOT Western Texts. No scholar in the world believes that.

There are also numerous other writers with their books that agree with Dr. Otis.

Which only proves some people agree while others do not. Only concrete verifiable evidence matters.

 

[netchaplain]

Netch point taken. Yes some of the earlier Ante Nicene Fathers would have known some of the apostles. But I think the Ante Nicene period goes up to around the period of the 4th -5th century so a majority of the writers within that period wouldn’t have known the Apostles View attachment 9497 As to the Roman Catholic Church officially coming under that name. That was around 7th century. But there was no problem in their claiming their spiritual roots back to Jesus Christ and the apostolic church. After all our Christian spiritual roots begin there . The bigger problem came when they excluded every other Christian faith in the Roman Empire or for that matter any other Christian in the world of that birth right who wasn’t Roman Catholic. And that they were not part of the holy church until they converted. And of course eventually you had the Roman bishops later claims to being the head of the entire church. The Orthodox Church certainly wasn’t having any of it along with other practicing Christian faiths

Myself, I think the RCC was never a true Christian church, but just escalated to what it is today, anti-Christian. Many good Bible commentators believe it is "the whore of Babylon"; because all that Revelation has on it surely seems to parallel the denomination. Regardless, their doctrines are clear manifestations of evil!

 

[netchaplain]

Again, ad hoc. Please cite an early primary source for verifiable.

The scholars Crissip Lake with Dean John William Burgon "contended that there once were many ancient manuscripts containing the Byzantine text, manuscripts much older than B (Vaticanus) and Aleph (Sinaiticus). But they were read so constantly and copied so frequently that finally they wore out and perished (which is why there are no extant autographs of the original writers, which others might worship) . . . the reason why B and Aleph survived to the present day is because they were rejected by the Greek Church as faulty and so not used. They should have experienced the same fate that most other ancient manuscripts encountered."

This statement is completely false. Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus are NOT Western Texts. No scholar in the world believes that.

Sorry, got mixed up with what I meant to say, the Alexandrian text types.

 

[Prim90]

Netch perhaps you right with many of the Roman Catholic doctrines being based on church traditions and yes other doctrines be contrary to scripture. At the same time there be much Catholic doctrine that abides correctly with the word of God along with millions of fine Catholic Christians. They adhere to the teachings of the holy Trinity. As to mystery Babylon and to the whore that rides the beast there has been quite number of candidates over the millennia

 

[netchaplain]

Netch perhaps you right with many of the Roman Catholic doctrines being based on church traditions and yes other doctrines be contrary to scripture. At the same time there be much Catholic doctrine that abides correctly with the word of God along with millions of fine Catholic Christians.

The must mix truth with error, same as Satan. It doesn't matter how much truth there is if there is also much error. Even saying this is missed by many who are not truly seeking truth!

 

[Prim90]

Netch perhaps you right with many of the Roman Catholic doctrines being based on church traditions and yes other doctrines be contrary to scripture. At the same time there be much Catholic doctrine that abides correctly with the word of God along with millions of fine Catholic Christians. They adhere to the teachings of holy Trinity. View attachment 9500As to mystery Babylon and to the whore that rides the beast there has been quite number of candidates over thmillennia

The must mix truth with error, same as Satan. It doesn't matter how much truth there is if there is also much error. Even saying this is missed by many who are not truly seeking truth!

well there be a whole lot more error if it wasn’t for the Byzantine and Catholic empires who felt the full brunt of the Islamic onslaught more so the Byzantine empire. Was it not those Christian bastions that saved Europe from becoming Islamic. You’d probably be Muslim now if your ancestors came from Europe though me might have been a little safer this vib part of the world : )

 

[crossnote]

Netch perhaps you right with many of the Roman Catholic doctrines being based on church traditions and yes other doctrines be contrary to scripture. At the same time there be much Catholic doctrine that abides correctly with the word of God along with millions of fine Catholic Christians. They adhere to the teachings of holy Trinity. View attachment 9500As to mystery Babylon and to the whore that rides the beast there has been quite number of candidates over thmillennia

well there be a whole lot more error if it wasn’t for the Byzantine and Catholic empires who felt the full brunt of the Islamic onslaught more so the Byzantine empire. Was it not those Christian bastions that saved Europe from becoming Islamic. You’d probably be Muslim now if your ancestors came from Europe though me might have been a little safer this vib part of the world : )

Yes, but OTOH one can look at Islam as a judgment of God on the Church having mixed paganism into it's beliefs through the RCC.

 

[crossnote]

One false and significant of their doctrines is the teaching of Immaculate Conception; "the conception of the Virgin Mary in which as decreed in Roman Catholic dogma her soul was preserved free from original sin by divine grace."

There are many teachings like this of which the members aren't aware, because they do not desire others to read the Bible. That's why they burned Tyndale in Vilvorde, outside Brussels in Belgium on Aug. 6, 1536. The RCC is the only religion that persecuted Christians for translating the Bible from Greek and Latin into English (and I could present much more travesties of the RCC). I don't understand how they got so many members (world largest denomination), other than the members don't read much of the Word.

I also believe there are some members that keep coming out of that so called church that are truly seeking truth. There's only one reason why one would not know truth, by not truly seeking it to live by! ("seek and ye shall find").

As well as their multitudes of intermediaries.

 

[netchaplain]

Netch perhaps you right with many of the Roman Catholic doctrines being based on church traditions and yes other doctrines be contrary to scripture. At the same time there be much Catholic doctrine that abides correctly with the word of God along with millions of fine Catholic Christians.

It's ok, but you're not understanding me concerning mixing truth with error, which is demonic!

 

[Prim90]

Yes, but OTOH one can look at Islam as a judgment of God on the Church having mixed paganism into it's beliefs through the RCC.

Crossnote not so sure about that. The Byzantine empire was rather Orthodox that fell much earlier to the Muslims with the protector and mantle of the Orthodox faith passed onto Russia. If a judgment of God was only meant solely for the Roman Catholic Church than what lay in stall for Germany the birth place of the reformation. It was rather Protestant at the time. The miracle at the siege of Vienna1683 of some 20.000 Polish Catholic Calvary that put the Muslim army to flight was all that saved Europe including the Protestants as well.

 

[Prim90]

It's ok, but you're not understanding me concerning mixing truth with error, which is demonic!

Netch me do understand you well enough. There be one river but many streams that flow from it which has always kept the church fresh and vibrant and alive even in the darkest of times. I see you now reading upon the Byzantine texts. I recommend you a book on the Byzantine texts that might help you some.

 

[netchaplain]

Netch me do understand you well enough. There be one river but many streams that flow from it which has always kept the church fresh and vibrant and alive even in the darkest of times. I see you now reading upon the Byzantine texts. I recommend you a book on the Byzantine texts that might help you some. View attachment 9501

That's ok if we don't understand one another!

 

[Prim90]

That's ok if we don't understand one another!

Hou we not understand each other. What religion you be . Ok to ask

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote not so sure about that. The Byzantine empire was rather Orthodox that fell much earlier to the Muslims with the protector and mantle of the Orthodox faith passed onto Russia. If a judgment of God was only meant solely for the Roman Catholic Church than what lay in stall for Germany the birth place of the reformation. It was rather Protestant at the time. The miracle at the siege of Vienna1683 of some 20.000 Polish Catholic Calvary that put the Muslim army to flight was all that saved Europe including the Protestants as well.

Good points but the E.O. and R.O. have their mix of paganism as well. What percentage of the 20,000 Polish Catholic Calvary do you suppose was born again?

 

[netchaplain]

Hou we not understand each other. What religion you be . Ok to ask

Southern Baptist. God bless!