By His stripes we are healed

[Major]

Hello Major
May I ask of you to show me how and why this is a spiritual healing plese. I hope this working right. Using. Smll phone is trippy. Thank God for my tablet at home !
Blessings Brother
Jim sitten at target watchen it rain. Lol

I will be glad to Jim. Please remember that you do not have to agree with me. Some people here are getting all excited and angry all of a sudden. NO ONE HAS TO AGREE WITH ME. I am not the enemy and I just do not look at this subject as do some others.

Does God heal???? YES!!!! HE does but IMO man does not. I do not believe that any man can place his hands on another person and because of that action a man is healed. We can pray and lay on hands and agree that God can heal any9ne and HE DOES!!!!

Now having said that......when I read Isaiah 53 the context of Isaiah 53:4 indicates to me that spiritual healing is in view. In verse 5 we are clearly told, "He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed" (v. 5). Because "transgressions" and "iniquities" set the context, what is in view is spiritual healing from the misery of man's sin.

I do not see the word "Physical" in the words so I can just arbitrarily add them.

 

[Major]

Country Boy....Yea but old ? I do not believe that. I do have a question for you. Do you know how to punish a country boy the worse?? Move him to the city and take away his truck and boat and dog. This i know. Lol

Believe it my brother. I have now lived in 8 decades!!! Do the math.

 

[Major]

We all know that God struck them dead, but that is not something He does today. Judgment will come but not instantly as it did for them. That was a major teaching point for the early church and a warning to us. It has NOTHING to do with God's gracious provision of our healing inherent in the atonement.

God isn't schizoid. He doesn't heal people and then rob others of health. No, that is Satan's job to steal from us. It is so important for Christians to get to know the Father and His nature, which does not include infecting us with disease, which is one of the most foul false doctrines that many Christians are fed.

God is all about life, health, strength and abundance for His children. Claiming He is the author of sickness and death is just vile.

You said............
"We all know that God struck them dead, but that is not something He does today."

But I have read where YOU have also said that "God is the same yesterday, today and tomarrow".

Isn't that a contradiction???

 

[Major]

Yes, you are a denominational person. I am not.

We have it within our born again, pure and holy spirits to effect our own healing, as God's promise to us.

But my dear sister in Christ, aren't there are numerous verses in Scripture which substantiate the view that physical healing in mortal life is not guaranteed in the atonement and that it is not always God's will to heal????

The apostle Paul couldn't heal Timothy's stomach problem in 1 Timothy 5:23 nor could he heal Trophimus at Miletus as recorded in 2 Timothy 4:20 or Epaphroditus in Philippians 3:25-27. Does that not cause you some concern in what you are thinking?

Didn't Paul speek of "a bodily illness" he had in Galatians 4:13-15. He also suffered a "thorn in the flesh" which God allowed him to retain as seen in 2 Corinthians 12:7-9. God certainly allowed Job to go through a time of physical suffering because we saw that that place in Job 1--2.

When I read all those verses I do not see In any of those cases that it stated that the sickness was caused by sin or unbelief. Nor did Paul or any of the others act as if they thought their healing was guaranteed in the atonement. They accepted their situations and trusted in God's grace for sustenance. I think that it is also worth noting that on one occasion Jesus indicated that sickness could be for the glory of God as stated in John 11:4.

Also, there are numerous verses in Scripture which reveal that our physical bodies are continuously running down and suffering various ailments. Our present bodies are said to be perishable and weak in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. Paul said "our outer man is decaying" in 2 Corinthians 4:16. Death and disease will be a part of the human condition until that time when we receive resurrection bodies that are immune to such frailties and that is told to us in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

Am I saying we shouldn't pray for healing? No, not at all. Am I saying that God does not heal? Again, NO! I'm just saying that after we've asked for healing, we need to submit to God's sovereign will. He may have a purpose in allowing our illness and the Bible tells us that all things work together for good to those that believe in Romans 8:28.

That is all I am saying. That is what the Bible says. You are free to believe as you choose to do so.

 

[Craig Allen]

***Sickness and disease is NEVER God's will. ***

Ahem

I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
- Deuteronomy 32:39

Actually sickness and disease is in NO ONE else's hands

See the Book of Job, chapters 1 & 2 for further details

 

[Juk]

Sorry if I annoyed ye with all the likes. Hopefully it is not against the rules.

 

[CCW95A]

Psa 103:1.. Of David. Bless the LORD, O my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name!
Psa 103:2.. Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits,
Psa 103:3.. who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases,


Sin results in "sickness"

Psa 107:17.. Some were fools through their sinful ways, and because of their iniquities suffered affliction;

 

[Craig Allen]

Job had committed no iniquity...

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. - Job 2:3 KJB

Next thing ya know...

So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
- Job 2:7 KJB

 

[CCW95A]

Job had committed no iniquity...

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. - Job 2:3 KJB

Next thing ya know...

So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
- Job 2:7 KJB

"What ever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23)
Fear is "sin" for it does not comes from faith.

Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
Job 3:26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

God turned Job's "captivity" from the Devil, and brought healing to Job, and then brought restoration.

Job 42:10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

 

[Craig Allen]

The phrase - without cause, says that it was NOT becuse of any sin on Job's part.

Or which part of WITHOUT CAUSE does God not understand?

The following verses, Job 2:3 & 2:10 reiterate what Deuteronomy 32:39 said.

Job 2:3 KJB
although thou (Satan)
movedst me (GOD)
against him, to destroy him (Job)
without cause.

What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
- Job 2:10

The evil (calamity not moral evil) that fell upon Job, came from GOD, as Deuteronomy 32:39 says.

 

[Arrie03]

Why not just quote it?

''Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted''

Are you suggesting God died for my sick body?

Some sickness does come from sin. But to suggest bodily healing warrants being mentioned along with our salvation is a joke.

Hi, sorry, no, you have missed me here.
These verses deal with our healing from sin, and what goes along with that.
Now note that our pain and suffering, our transgressions, iniquities and lack of peace, was placed on Him, causing Him what? Wounds and bruises. Why, simply so that we do not need to suffer them although rightly so, He took it in our place.
So does this include sickness, and the "right" to ask for healing of those - possibly so, but I have to give up, what has been stated with these versus, does not seem a free for all to quote as a "demand" on bodily healing, although it is His will for us to do so.

 

[Euphemia]

You said............
"We all know that God struck them dead, but that is not something He does today."

But I have read where YOU have also said that "God is the same yesterday, today and tomarrow".

Isn't that a contradiction???

No it isn't a contradiction. God never changes, but His method of dealing with men does. This is called dispensations.

 

[CCW95A]

The phrase - without cause, says that it was NOT becuse of any sin on Job's part.

Or which part of WITHOUT CAUSE does God not understand?

The following verses, Job 2:3 & 2:10 reiterate what Deuteronomy 32:39 said.

Job 2:3 KJB
although thou (Satan)
movedst me (GOD)
against him, to destroy him (Job)
without cause.

What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
- Job 2:10

The evil (calamity not moral evil) that fell upon Job, came from GOD, as Deuteronomy 32:39 says.

Elihu was the only one God did no rebuke for speaking evil about God. Elihu speaks to Job here.....

Job 33:8 "Surely you have spoken in my ears, and I have heard the sound of your words.
Job 33:9 You say, 'I am pure, without transgression; I am clean, and there is no iniquity in me.
Job 33:10 Behold, he finds occasions against me, he counts me as his enemy,
Job 33:11 he puts my feet in the stocks and watches all my paths.'
Job 33:12 "Behold, in this you are not right. I will answer you, for God is greater than man.
Job 33:13 Why do you contend against him, saying, 'He will answer none of man's words'?

Job accuses God for all his problems, and Job thinks he is without sin!!! Job contends against God with his words.

Elihu once again speaks to Job......

Job 34:34 Men of understanding will say to me, and the wise man who hears me will say:
Job 34:35 'Job speaks without knowledge; his words are without insight.'
Job 34:36 Would that Job were tried to the end, because he answers like wicked men.
Job 34:37 For he adds rebellion to his sin; he claps his hands among us and multiplies his words against God."

Elihu once again speaks to Job......

Job 34:10 "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong.
Job 34:11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him.
Job 34:12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.

Elihu again speaks to Job......Remember this is the only guy God said that spoke right about Job

Job 35:1 Elihu spake moreover, and said,
Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
Job 35:3 For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? and, What profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?
Job 35:4 I will answer thee, and thy companions with thee.

Job thought he was without sin, and wondered what if I did have sin would all this still come upon me.
Job thought his righteousness was even more than Gods, and wonder why God brought this suffering upon him.

Now God speaks directly to Job....

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.

Job thought he had the wisdom of God yet he spoke wrongly about God in his human wisdom that was darkened.
Job had no understanding of what was happening to him, and accused God for his sufferings.

God speaks to Job again......

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Elihu told Job he was "contending" against God him self in his words, and God backs it up.

Job said his "righteousness" was more than God's righteousness.....

Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Never accuse God for something he does not do!!! Like give sickness to anyone!!!
Sin always gives Satan a right to bring sickness upon that person.
Job confirms the error of his ways, and words that he spoke against God, and REPENTS!!!!

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Anyone who says God gives sickness to teach them something is speaking against God and his ways, and is "contending" against God.

 

[Euphemia]

But my dear sister in Christ, aren't there are numerous verses in Scripture which substantiate the view that physical healing in mortal life is not guaranteed in the atonement and that it is not always God's will to heal????

Nope.

The apostle Paul couldn't heal Timothy's stomach problem in 1 Timothy 5:23 nor could he heal Trophimus at Miletus as recorded in 2 Timothy 4:20 or Epaphroditus in Philippians 3:25-27. Does that not cause you some concern in what you are thinking?

Do you think Paul didn't lay hands on timothy before they parted? Do you expect healing to always be instantaneous? Do you think the wise advice from Paul to drink some wine rather than the local water which would be problematic for the much-traveling Timothy was not of God?

Do you think Paul needed to wait for Trophimus to be healed before He left? Trophimus indeed joined Paul later in Jerusalem fully well. What about Epaphroditus? He was made well. God's mercy is ever-flowing. We need to trust Him at His word.

Didn't Paul speek of "a bodily illness" he had in Galatians 4:13-15. He also suffered a "thorn in the flesh" which God allowed him to retain as seen in 2 Corinthians 12:7-9. God certainly allowed Job to go through a time of physical suffering because we saw that that place in Job 1--2.

Paul suffered an unknown illness, but recovered. The thorn in his flesh was not an illness of any kind, and
THAT particular argument is used by people to defend the belief that God wants us sick. It is a false belief and a false basis for the belief.

God allows His power to be seen through weakness, and that can include a physical infirmity, but not always, and it certainly doesn't mean that He is the one who inflicts it. As for Job, God didn't subject Job to suffering. True to his character, it was Satan! Job was healed and restored and had more in the end than he had in the beginning. God's promise.

When I read all those verses I do not see In any of those cases that it stated that the sickness was caused by sin or unbelief. Nor did Paul or any of the others act as if they thought their healing was guaranteed in the atonement. They accepted their situations and trusted in God's grace for sustenance. I think that it is also worth noting that on one occasion Jesus indicated that sickness could be for the glory of God as stated in John 11:4.

Sickness' origin is in the fall of man. Paul certainly knew he had healing and he appropriated it for himself and for others.

As for God's glory---yes, God gets all the glory in all our weaknesses when we choose to submit to His hand in them and to live for Him despite suffering. However, we have it in our born again spirits the promise of healing and all we need to do is learn to appropriate it from our spirit--through our soul (mind) and let our bodies take hold of it.

Also, there are numerous verses in Scripture which reveal that our physical bodies are continuously running down and suffering various ailments. Our present bodies are said to be perishable and weak in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. Paul said "our outer man is decaying" in 2 Corinthians 4:16. Death and disease will be a part of the human condition until that time when we receive resurrection bodies that are immune to such frailties and that is told to us in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

Yep, we live in a fallen, disease-causing microbial soup. We have precious promises to lean on that help us navigate this life with wellness.

Am I saying we shouldn't pray for healing? No, not at all. Am I saying that God does not heal? Again, NO! I'm just saying that after we've asked for healing, we need to submit to God's sovereign will. He may have a purpose in allowing our illness and the Bible tells us that all things work together for good to those that believe in Romans 8:28.

That is all I am saying. That is what the Bible says. You are free to believe as you choose to do so.

We don't even have to ask for healing when we already have it. That's like asking your dad for a bicycle when he already bought you the lovely red one out in the garage.

 

[Arrie03]

I may have neglected something. While our souls are so much more important than our bodies because our souls are immortal while our bodies aren't (from dust we came and to dust we shall return), Christ has imparted graces of physical healing. If he didn't or wouldn't, then I doubt we'd pray for physical wellness of others. There are plenty of passages of Christ healing the sick. Today, there is a sacrament of the anointing of the sick.

Absolutely agrees - and I think this counts for anything, as God wants us to be His children, to be dependant on Him as it should be. Christ said regarding prayer, that our Father in heaven already knows what we need, including healing of illnesses, but my mind leans towards the fact that we need to acknowledge and glorify Him in our requests.
7#
(Matt. 21:22Mark 11:24)Luke 11:9–13Luke 18:1–8(John 15:7James 1:561 John 3:22)
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.8For #
Prov. 8:17Jer. 29:12
everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.9#
Luke 11:11
Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?10Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent?11If you then, #
Gen. 6:5Ge 8:21Ps. 84:11Is. 63:7(Rom. 8:32James 1:17)1 John 3:1
being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!12Therefore, #
Luke 6:31
whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for #
Matt. 22:40Rom. 13:8Gal. 5:14(1 Tim. 1:5)
this is the Law and the Prophets.

 

[Arrie03]

James 5:13-15.......
"Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. "

When a person is so ill that he or she cannot go to church, they want the people with the most faith in the church to come and pray. Normally, when the illness is not major, the rule is ‘pray for each other’. The elders will act just like the disciples in Mk. 6:13 who must have learned it from Jesus, and anoint the sick person with oil as they pray, so their prayer is not only heard, but physically felt. The important fact is that the prayer is to the Lord and the anointing is done in the name of the Lord. It is the Lord, not the power of the prayer or the oil, who will raise him up.

Just a quick question regarding the statement "The elders will act just like the disciples". Are we all not disciples? After all what is a disciple, except someone who is being taught?

 

[Craig Allen]

*********Job thought he was without sin**********

God is speaking here, first person, this has nothing to do with what Job MAY BE thinking.

Savvy?

God speaking, first person directive...

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him,

without cause

- Job 2:3 KJB

Without cause - -> are GOD'S WORDS, God's point of view, absolutely apart from anything Job may have been thinking at the time GOD was speaking.

Si?

 

[Arrie03]

1. It's common sense to know that if a person is laying on the streets bleeding that they need a bandage and someone to call 911.
2. If you have a cold and/or headache, take Tylenol or something stronger like a Nyquil at night. And that requires common sense, too.
God has already provided people with the knowledge and skills like scientists, pharmacists, doctors, nurses, etc..to create bandages, Tylenol, Nylquil, and such for these common ailements.
What most people tend to pray for are things that seem impossible to overcome. Like ebola and cancer. Only God can protect and heal you of those if it's His Will to do so. We all going to die someday regardless. Better make sure you're saved before the day comes.

But why should we treat something like flu or bronchitis different to cancer and ebola? So my question is, seeing that we are God's children, heirs to His kingdom, should we not have gone to Him first with those kind of things, rather that run for the pill cabinet. Did He not say that the kingdom of heaven are for those that are like little children? What does that mean? Why should we be like children to inherit the kingdom? In the prayer that is "our Father in heaven" as taught by Christ Jesus, do we not say "give us our daily bread" To me it sounds like we confess our existence dependant on Him, God our Father in heaven. Should we be partially dependant, or fully dependant on Him? How would He prefer to have us in this matter? I like to believe that He wants all of us, the good and the bad, when we excel, and when we have small or big illnesses, thus always fully dependant on Him, in richer and in poorer.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Believe it my brother. I have now lived in 8 decades!!! Do the math.

May I make a small suggestion ? Simply move back to some of the earlier decades you lived in. Kind of like moving back into the house you were raised in. Well I can say this for you, your typing sure does not show those decades. ; )
Blessings
Jim

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I will be glad to Jim. Please remember that you do not have to agree with me. Some people here are getting all excited and angry all of a sudden. NO ONE HAS TO AGREE WITH ME. I am not the enemy and I just do not look at this subject as do some others.

Does God heal???? YES!!!! HE does but IMO man does not. I do not believe that any man can place his hands on another person and because of that action a man is healed. We can pray and lay on hands and agree that God can heal any9ne and HE DOES!!!!

Now having said that......when I read Isaiah 53 the context of Isaiah 53:4 indicates to me that spiritual healing is in view. In verse 5 we are clearly told, "He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed" (v. 5). Because "transgressions" and "iniquities" set the context, what is in view is spiritual healing from the misery of man's sin.

I do not see the word "Physical" in the words so I can just arbitrarily add them.

Hello Major,
It is so good sitting in front of this tablet once again. I totally agree with the first part of what you were talking about. The only way man can lay hands on some one and see a healing is if God works through the man. It is always God and always by God or through God for man is and only can be the instrument used.

For the other ( Isaiah ) I will have to do more studying over that one. I mean I still beleive it is a physical healing........but just because I beleive does not make me right. Thanks for yout time Major
Blessings
Jim