I asked you to show me where I said I was superior which you accused me of. You took what I said out of context. Try re reading this post over. Thank you.
Can Faith Alone Save?
- Thread starter Reanne
- Start date
No mam, we are, very clearly saved by faith and as I pointed out, even our faith is an unearned gift from Jesus. We are saved unto good works or, more clearly, to do good works. As a saved person we will do good works because we are led to do them by the Holy Spirit so even the good works are a gift from God.
Jesus, did the work that day on the cross, almost 2000 years before I was born and yet He died there for me.
Edited per rule 2.1
Mike, where do you find in the scripture that we must work to remain saved?
I guess, Bill, some people think it's too good to be true - that we can be "saved" by believing in Christ, as our Savior. They want it to be an exclusive club that few have admission to. It's like thinking of Love as a pie, if you get a piece, there's that much less pie for me. Being a "Good" Christian is not a comparative or competitive sport. The thief who died on the cross, next to Christ, was saved. We remember him 2000 years later. And yet some want to reject what he should mean to all Christians. I don't actually care if anyone thinks I'm a "Good" Christian or not. It is I who need to know that I reflect Christ's love for me, in the best way possible in gratitude and thanks to Him. I don't see this as Work. (Humming Amazing Grace). Scripture is a darn good guide but it is left to each person to know why they do and what they do to please God - not to please his/her fellow man. If anyone doubts he or she is saved then they are getting interference on the true message. And anyone claiming someone else is not saved by definition of "their works" should re-examine their own theology.
Excellant Silk!
I do not believe I said you were superior Mike. Maybe I missed it but I do not think so. Wrong ....Yes. Superior, No.
As a missionary I am totally perplexed that you believe that we must do something to be or stay saved.
I can not believe that you would even approach the preciouse Scriptures with the age old argument that.....
"What Jesus did does not give license for what you and I can do".
You of all people know that we have the sin nature when we are born. We come under the Federal Headship of Adam.
You must know that means we sin because we are sinners and Jesus could not and did not die to allow sinners to sin.
What kind of thinking is that ????
He died to save sinners from sin but sinners still sin because we can not kill the sin nature. That does not mean in any way that we have a licence to sin but that we are forgiven when we sin.
Rusty, Mike and all who believe that we must do something to be saved or stay saved, allow me to ask you a question that will put and end to this belief...............
"Did God accept Abraham BEFORE or AFTER he was circumcized"????
The answer is in the Bible and it settles this very easily.
I eagerly wait your responce.
I think we are misunderstanding each other here. I don't see that anyone here has said that works save you. I don't see any disagreement on that point from anybody, not Reanne, not Rusty, nor Jack Williamson, Glomung, or anyone else. What I see being said is that a faith which produces no fruit is a dead faith in which no transformation has taken place. A living, transforming faith will result in changed thinking and behavior. If a person's thinking and behavior are the same after their profession as it was before, then there is good cause for them to question their salvation. God's grace goes beyond bookkeeping, IMHO. It is not merely God saying, "Well, Jim just said the magic words. Go erase the record of his sins and put his name in the Book of Life. Put his name on the mailbox of that dwelling place on Gold Street. Ha ha! What am I saying, they're ALL Gold Street!" When a person places their faith in Christ, Christ comes and indwells him, making his dead soul come alive. A change takes place within the person's very being and that, naturally, is going to result in changed thinking and behavior.
Faith alone (or, as Dirty pointed out, Grace through faith) does save. Works never saved anyone. I would venture to say that we all agree on those two points. However, there is a dynamic relationship between the two. When I prune my trees and shrubs, I can tell which branches are dead and which ones are alive. If I have any doubt, I can wait another season, and by the next spring, there will be no question. The living branches will put out leaves because that's what branches do. They may be small leaves, they may be sickly leaves, but I know that that branch is alive. In the Fall or Winter, I may not be able to tell, but in the Spring, when the sun shines and the rain falls, the living branches respond with foliage, flowers, and fruit.
It is not our duty, as several of you have already pointed out, to decide whether another person is saved by our own arbitrary standard. But, it is well for us to examine our own lives and if our desires, attitudes, and behavior are carnal, we are well justified in being concerned about our salvation. If it appears that the old man is the lively one and the new man seems to be inert and unresponsive, that doesn't fit any Biblical pattern of regeneration, salvation, or Christian living that I can see.
Faith alone (or, as Dirty pointed out, Grace through faith) does save. Works never saved anyone. I would venture to say that we all agree on those two points. However, there is a dynamic relationship between the two. When I prune my trees and shrubs, I can tell which branches are dead and which ones are alive. If I have any doubt, I can wait another season, and by the next spring, there will be no question. The living branches will put out leaves because that's what branches do. They may be small leaves, they may be sickly leaves, but I know that that branch is alive. In the Fall or Winter, I may not be able to tell, but in the Spring, when the sun shines and the rain falls, the living branches respond with foliage, flowers, and fruit.
It is not our duty, as several of you have already pointed out, to decide whether another person is saved by our own arbitrary standard. But, it is well for us to examine our own lives and if our desires, attitudes, and behavior are carnal, we are well justified in being concerned about our salvation. If it appears that the old man is the lively one and the new man seems to be inert and unresponsive, that doesn't fit any Biblical pattern of regeneration, salvation, or Christian living that I can see.
@ Rumely
I think the keyword and question is: GROWTH; spiritual growth. You will know them by their 'fruits'. Is there 'spiritual' fruit growing in one's life after salvation. Growth / fruits can be in the form of deeds, acts, works, attitude, character-any attribute that would be of Christ including gifts & blessings.
We do not all have the same "kind" of fruit and we don't all grow at the same rate. Like you said-faith & grace (and might I add 'fear & trembling of the Lord') go hand in hand at the moment of salvation. For me-it was when all the pieces fit together and comprehension and acceptance of the Gospel met at the crossroads and I seized the opportunity to get on the bus!
I think it is very possible that many people will find themselves at those crossroads several times in their lives when they are presented the Gospel-but they never get on the bus. And those who get on the bus start staring back out the windows longing for the things that are outside and looking back at where they came from...
'Look up and live'!
I think the keyword and question is: GROWTH; spiritual growth. You will know them by their 'fruits'. Is there 'spiritual' fruit growing in one's life after salvation. Growth / fruits can be in the form of deeds, acts, works, attitude, character-any attribute that would be of Christ including gifts & blessings.
We do not all have the same "kind" of fruit and we don't all grow at the same rate. Like you said-faith & grace (and might I add 'fear & trembling of the Lord') go hand in hand at the moment of salvation. For me-it was when all the pieces fit together and comprehension and acceptance of the Gospel met at the crossroads and I seized the opportunity to get on the bus!
I think it is very possible that many people will find themselves at those crossroads several times in their lives when they are presented the Gospel-but they never get on the bus. And those who get on the bus start staring back out the windows longing for the things that are outside and looking back at where they came from...
'Look up and live'!
It seems to me he would be arguing that 'salvation can be lost'.
'Faith' by itself cannot save-if I understand what he is trying to say. We can "faith" in lots of things. Grace through Faith (God's eternal grace and mercy through His Son Jesus Christ's sacrifice) will save every time according to my Bible.
I think this thread is combining a bunch of fundamental topics and tossing them around creating a tad bit of confusion. So maybe we should break down the thread into several question"
What is salvation; why do we need it?
Can salvation be lost?
Is there proof of salvation?
Who can judge salvation?
What is God's Grace?
What is "faith"?
I think we have answered most of these questions, but there seems to be arguments coming from both sides; it is hard to discern one concept from another as they are all connected. It would seem to me that this whole thread could be solved by answering the question: "Am I saved?" Which I think would be summed up in presentation of the Gospel.
Y'know, I think it would be good to talk about what works even are, from a Christian perspective. Maybe it needs its own thread. I think that may be part of the confusion. The parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46 might be a good place to start. We can discuss that here or someone can start a separate thread, however you wish to approach it.
And in many ways I agee with you DRS.
I would also ad that I too asked a question which was..............
"Was Abraham accepted by God BERORE or AFTER he was circumcized?'
No one so far has spoken to that question as I believe it will answer the differances.
Certinly, because I really do not believe that "rebuking" someone is a deed that would lead to salvation. It seems to me that is a really extreme interpetation, but that is just me.
Abram started obeying the Lord in Genesis 12 ; God changed His name in Genesis 17:5 ; God commanded circumcision for a 'sign'/"token" of the covenant in Genesis 17:10 ; and then the 'test' of Isaac's sacrifice in Genesis 22.
My guess is Abram was 'chosen' because of the willingness of his heart to follow the Lord in obedience. Abram had faith in the Lord-that the Lord would lead him in the right direction. He was still a sinner....
So in answer to your question: BEFORE, final answer.... Not sure where you are going with this?
Not really going anywhere DRS, just trying to show that our salvation is based in faith in the Blood and only that and nothing more.
Again, should the born again Christian do good works after being saved.....YES, but the key is SOULD they not they HAVE to.
Circumcision was the badge of the Jews. It was a "work" or something that they DID and was to show a closeness to God...correct?? It was to show that there was no part of our lives that was too private or too personal for God.
But the Jews had allowed the sign of circumcision to become a sign of "superiority" instead of submission.
They grew to allow and trust a WORK they did more than they did the Father.
But, the Jews according to Paul in Romans2:17-29 shatters that thought. True circumcision is done in the heart by God and not by a written law we must keep or a deed we must do.
Hence the question, "Did God accept Abraham before or after his circumcision?
And you are correct my brother which IMO proves my point that we are saved/accepted by God and kept saved by God through God's grace and not anything we do. IF God only accepted Abraham AFTER his circumcision, thaen he would have been accepted according to what he had done and not according to his faith.
Abraham was accepted by God in Genesis 15 and he was circumsised in Geneis 17 which was 14 years later.
So then why be circumcised??? As Rusty would say and agree....."Symbolic".
The purpose was to show what God had already done in his heart.
Would it not be fair to say that our salvation relies on our 'heart condition'; dependent upon our personal faith since the Lord made a way for ALL to be saved?
Is it not our choice whether or not we follow God? I agree that salvation is free - to those who will accept the gift of Christ. If our hearts be for God-would it not show in some way to the world?
I agree that our 'works' can not save us- but there should be 'evidence'/ 'fruit' that we are followers of Christ. It is inevitable if we are walking in His ways. Christ should be pouring out of us from somewhere if He is in us right?
Is it not our choice whether or not we follow God? I agree that salvation is free - to those who will accept the gift of Christ. If our hearts be for God-would it not show in some way to the world?
I agree that our 'works' can not save us- but there should be 'evidence'/ 'fruit' that we are followers of Christ. It is inevitable if we are walking in His ways. Christ should be pouring out of us from somewhere if He is in us right?
Glomung
Account Closed
The answer to all this has already been spoken by Jesus Himself-
The Parable of the Talents
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The servants are the saved, the talents are their salvation, the one who takes his salvation and DOES NOTHING WITH IT is a person who has no works to show for his gift. He is condemned for having wasted his gift.
For what good is it to claim faith if you do nothing with it?
The Parable of the Talents
14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The servants are the saved, the talents are their salvation, the one who takes his salvation and DOES NOTHING WITH IT is a person who has no works to show for his gift. He is condemned for having wasted his gift.
For what good is it to claim faith if you do nothing with it?