Catholicism- The Truth In The Practices

ixoye_8 said:
EXACTLY .. doctrine does not save anyone .. only (as you say) core requirements of salvation can ..

I agree 100% with you .. I see 500 years of stones being thrown & thrown back ..
God must shake His head and say "did I not tell them go and learn what compassion means" ???
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It is true doctrine does not save anyone in itself, but it does keep us on the path-- 2 timothy 3:15-16. Conversely, bad doctrine can take us off the path. So we cannot easily dismiss discussion about doctrines that may be in error.
 
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Man-ofGod said:
It is true doctrine does not save anyone in itself, but it does keep us on the path-- 2 timothy 3:15-16. Conversely, bad doctrine can take us off the path. So we cannot easily dismiss discussion about doctrines that may be in error.
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I agree doctrine has relevance, but when it makes you lose love for others or becomes rooted in ego of correctness, then it actually does more harm ..

I reflect on Jesus words .. "come to me as a child" .. this is "innocence of heart above understanding" .. Jesus clearly shows that one outweighs the other .. so that innocence of heart is far more important ..
 
Man-ofGod said:
I think many sincere Catholics will be saved, God will be just in his judgement (Acts 17:30). But there is a deception in Catholicism that threatens that grace God gives us, a saved by works type of mentality, where people do not rely on Gods grace and power to overcome but their own will power.
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I would like to respond to this one -- it has been the subject of discussion here in the past.

Catholics, like Protestants, believe in salvation through grace alone. Catholics also don't believe one can work his way into heaven, though we do believe grace is received through faith, and that faith without works is dead (James 2:26)

In fact, the first Canon regarding Justification at the Council of Trent (the whole thing can be read here) it says, "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema."

Catholics are very strict in that no one can work his way into heaven. This is something many people misunderstand about Catholic doctrine -- we agree that man is saved by grace alone.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
Catholics are very strict in that no one can work his way into heaven. This is something many people misunderstand about Catholic doctrine -- we agree that man is saved by grace alone.
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What about redemptive suffering?

Not that suffering gets the forgiveness of sin, works but that it can reduce the penalty for sin. (Works) Through suffering, one can reduce the effects of the curse after the sin is committed.

Blessings.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
Catholics also don't believe one can work his way into heaven, though we do believe grace is received through faith, and that faith without works is dead (James 2:26)
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it is only by Grace that God even made a means of redemption possible ..
therefore when Paul says "we are saved by Grace" he is saying "God did not have to redeem us" and therefore was "a free gift" .. however this "free gift" of Grace, of making the sacrifice and a new Covenant, does not mean the new Covenant/Contract of Faith needs nothing on our part ..

JESUS SAID
If you don't endure to the end, you WILL NOT gain salvation (Mat 24:13) ..
enduring in Belief imputes salvation, BUT if you do not obey WRATH (John 3:36) ..
as belief incorporates obedience ..

Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

here Jesus is asked POINT BLANK what is needed to gain salvation ..
Luk 10:25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Luk 10:27 And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
Luk 10:28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

LOVE IS A TWO-WAY STREET ..

I think a lot of the RCC view of purgatory may have come from this verse ..
Mat 5:26 “Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.
 
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LysanderShapiro said:
As in the act of penance?
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You must not be Old School Roman Catholic. Penance gives forgiveness by grace. Suffering lessons the severity of the consequences for your sin or someone else. So, you can lessen the time spent in purgatory and things like that. My friend Mathis was from Poland and a hard core Catholic. Every morning it was a ritual for him to pray to all the Saints, bug Mary about stuff and would be pretty diligent in doing all this. He had acid reflux which brought him a lot of pain. I asked him why not just go to the Doctor and he said that it's his suffering that he must do for all the wrong he had done.

but go to the Doctor................. No, it was his suffering. Something easy to fix.

He was a good guy, but had some strange beliefs.

ixoye_8 said:
I think a lot of the RCC view of purgatory may have come from this verse ..
Mat 5:26 “Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.
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That was to go to your debt guy and work it out before going to court. Jesus said to take care of things diligently before having to be taken to court. How would anyone see this as a place called purgatory? I think even Catholics can read, right? Or is this a case of taking one verse and making it say whatever you want it to say?

Michaelh
 
MichaelH said:
What about redemptive suffering?

Not that suffering gets the forgiveness of sin, works but that it can reduce the penalty for sin. (Works) Through suffering, one can reduce the effects of the curse after the sin is committed.

Blessings.
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This that you say reads " Christ died for my sin, but......"
It doesn't matter what fancy words and terms we devise, either the Blood of Christ Jesus cleanses us from all sin or it does not.
Where sin is forgiven, there is no longer any penalty for that sin to be paid, else the "passion" of Christ is of no value.
1John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Hard question #1. In verse 6, What is the darkness John refers to? Is it sin? or is it a lack of acceptance and understanding of the light of the Gospel?

Christ paid the price for our sins..fully, else we are still in debt and walking in that dark place of separation from God.
 
MichaelH said:
That was to go to your debt guy and work it out before going to court. Jesus said to take care of things diligently before having to be taken to court. How would anyone see this as a place called purgatory? I think even Catholics can read, right? Or is this a case of taking one verse and making it say whatever you want it to say?

Michaelh
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you didn't read it all then ..
Mat 5:20 mixes heaven along with the worldly (to show how it works)
Mat 5:22 mixes hell along with the worldly (to show how it works)
so it seems logical to mix the court then prison/waiting place with the worldly as well ..

I see very easily that Jesus is NOT just talking about a worldly court only .. and hence not just a worldly prison (see 1Pe 3:19)
 
MichaelH said:
You must not be Old School Roman Catholic. Penance gives forgiveness by grace. Suffering lessons the severity of the consequences for your sin or someone else. So, you can lessen the time spent in purgatory and things like that. My friend Mathis was from Poland and a hard core Catholic. Every morning it was a ritual for him to pray to all the Saints, bug Mary about stuff and would be pretty diligent in doing all this. He had acid reflux which brought him a lot of pain. I asked him why not just go to the Doctor and he said that it's his suffering that he must do for all the wrong he had done.

but go to the Doctor................. No, it was his suffering. Something easy to fix.

He was a good guy, but had some strange beliefs.
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I may or may not be an old school Catholic. I'm probably the first in my family to be a Catholic as I have more of a Mennonite and Jewish heritage...though I'm probably old school in other ways -- for instance, I'd much rather see the Latin Mass performed at every parish and liturgical music sticking with pre-Vatican II tradition. However, I'm no sedevacantists.

I can't comment on your friend's position. Avoiding health issues for the same of penance isn't part of Catholic dogma, that's for sure. Penance isn't linked to eternal salvation as that was done by Christ. Like I mentioned before, it's temporal.
 
ixoye_8 said:
I agree doctrine has relevance, but when it makes you lose love for others or becomes rooted in ego of correctness, then it actually does more harm ..

I reflect on Jesus words .. "come to me as a child" .. this is "innocence of heart above understanding" .. Jesus clearly shows that one outweighs the other .. so that innocence of heart is far more important ..
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Your right. The idea of exclusivity via doctrine is why Israel during Jesus time failed in the mission God assigned them. God is a God of inclusion for sure. However, despite Israels error, God was still to use Israel to propagate truth (John 4:22). With that said, I would hasten to add that God is not inclusive at the expense of truth and is not loving in the sense of sentimentalism (not that God does not have emotion, I believe He does) but He is love as defined in 1 cor 13. In this brand of love, reproof and correction can be considered an act of love (Rev 3:19). Therefore, a sincere believer commits no sin by helping others to come to a more accurate picture of who God is--especially if their salvation is at stake.
 
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LysanderShapiro said:
I may or may not be an old school Catholic. I'm probably the first in my family to be a Catholic as I have more of a Mennonite and Jewish heritage...though I'm probably old school in other ways -- for instance, I'd much rather see the Latin Mass performed at every parish and liturgical music sticking with pre-Vatican II tradition. However, I'm no sedevacantists.

I can't comment on your friend's position. Avoiding health issues for the same of penance isn't part of Catholic dogma, that's for sure. Penance isn't linked to eternal salvation as that was done by Christ. Like I mentioned before, it's temporal.
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It's called Redemptive suffering. It's not like Penance. Here is a Wikki on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redemptive_suffering

This is what my friend was thinking would help him. He did not mention his sins were not forgiven, I think He knew they were, but that some suffering on his part would help something.

I have been to Catholic Mass and I am not sure I would like it if it was in Latin. I am sure it sounds more surreal in Latin. After the ritual part, the Priest gave a pretty good message about helping others.

Blessings.
 
Man-ofGod said:
There is definitely dirt on Calvin, Luther and virtually every man of prominence, Catholic or non-Catholic (all have sinned and fallen short). Therefore, no one is claiming that Calvin was perfect or his doctrine was perfect, nor is that claim made for Luther. As I noted in a separate post on another thread, there is a gradual coming into truth that these reformers provided, each contributing light to the movement.
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FYI: I am neither Catholic or Protestant ..
once again I agree .. the RCC had moments of failure .. bad Popes with bad Papal Bulls .. and the reformers likewise teaching to "sin boldly" etc ..

but the Gospel of salvation .. that being given by Jesus as love God with your all and neighbor as self, and that love of God with all, defined by Jesus as belief, repentance and obedience must not be tampered with .. and IF it is, then we have a different Gospel of Salvation ..
 
ixoye_8 said:
FYI: I am neither Catholic or Protestant ..
once again I agree .. the RCC had moments of failure .. bad Popes with bad Papal Bulls .. and the reformers likewise teaching to "sin boldly" etc ..

but the Gospel of salvation .. that being given by Jesus as love God with your all and neighbor as self, and that love of God with all, defined by Jesus as belief, repentance and obedience must not be tampered with .. and IF it is, then we have a different Gospel of Salvation ..
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Amen. I agree. Reformers did not have it all right but they put the ball in motion I believe. With that said, if you study the Waldensians, they understood faith and works and that sect existed since about the close of primitive Christianity (over a millennium) well into the dark ages until they were exterminated.
 
He must belong to the 'Assemblies of God' and not grasp it is Protestant as I agree with 99% of what he writes :).
 
KingJ said:
He must belong to the 'Assemblies of God' and not grasp it is Protestant as I agree with 99% of what he writes :).
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Well, the definition has turned out to be that anyone who does not consider the authority of the Papal (Pope) is protestant.
This would include many Catholic churches.
 
MichaelH said:
Well, the definition has turned out to be that anyone who does not consider the authority of the Papal (Pope) is protestant.
This would include many Catholic churches.
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Yes and no. For instance, the Syrian Orthodox Church broke away from the Catholic Church years before te reformation, but they aren't exactly considered to be Protestants, even though they have technically protested against the papacy.

Unfortunately, you are right about some Catholic Parishes that don't fully stick to papal teaching. But that is often the fault of the overseeing bishop.
 
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