I understand. May I also say that you are between a rock and a hard place. You need to know that I do not reject or disinfranchaise the Catholic faith. I have many, many friends of that faith. But every one of them realize the difference we are talking about.
Catholics, Orthodox And Friends
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I understand. May I also say that you are between a rock and a hard place. You need to know that I do not reject or disinfranchaise the Catholic faith. I have many, many friends of that faith. But every one of them realize the difference we are talking about.
PeaceLikeaRiver
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Whose truth? Yours, or God's? They are extremely different.
Mary never at anytime considered herself Queen of anything. She considered herself a servant of the Lord.
Luk 1:38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.
If she was considered the Mother or God or Queen of Heaven that would elevate her to equal status of Jesus.
Did you know that in 1547 the council of Trent the RCC declared Mary to be sinless?
PeaceLikeaRiver
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Thanks very much for posting that, I hope it resounds.
It's a little bit like if I were to post a video of some idiot writhing on the ground speaking in "tongues" and say he was representative of all Evangelicals. Or a guy waving snakes around.
Absolutely they have been condemned!!!!!
The Baptist Convention has rejected the men you mention plus many more in article after article saying bluntly that they are
heresy!!! I do not have the numbers at my finger tips but they are easily found.
You see, Being in disagreement does not mean the Church rejects the heresy. The church must openly reject the things that are stated which are un-Biblical so as to keep its position of suthority on these matters.
Lets say that a Muslim kills 12 people in New York City. Would you expect the Muslim church to condemn the action or say nothing? If they say nothing, does that not send the signal that they really liked what happened ????
THAT is why it is important to reject and condemn heresy.
Well, I'm not sure I agree with two points you made here, respectfully of course.
Disagreement 1) That because it is not in the Bible it is not Christian. This presupposes that if it is not found in the Scriptures than it is not valid. This is also one of the key disagreements Catholics have with Protestants. If something contradicts Scripture, then I'd argue it's not Christian, but the position we have of this is that it doesn't contradict Scripture but even submits to it. It's just another disagreement we have.
But also, Disagreement 2) the reformers didn't have Marian devotion.
The truth is the reformers spoke very highly of Mary and did have Marian devotion. A few quotes from Luther:
"No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity."
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God."
Calvin:
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor...To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Zwingli:
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
It wasn't until long after the reformation that people's perspective of Our Lady began to change and devalue her as the mother of God. The reformers, while they were at odds with the Catholic Church, agreed in regards to Mary.
I only hold to God's truth. Stop baiting.
PeaceLikeaRiver
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So do the rest of us, Euphemia. Stop pretending your Christianity trumps everyone else's.
Indeed, as she also said "Generations will call me blessed." Both are true.
She was referred to very directly as Mother of our Lord very directly by Elizabeth in Luke.
And yes, I read the entire document of the Council of Trent. I think we discussed the nature of Mary in here before. I explained what her being sinless meant and that it still required her need of a savior, not that she was without need of one. Perhaps that's for another day too. Let's not get off track
I don't have a personal brand of Christianity....but my relationship with Jesus Christ is personal. So, it doesn't trump anyone else's who know Jesus, except my claim is that God's word trumps error, and that is true and that is all I have ever said. Your maligning and baiting continues and appears to have no end.
I never pretend.
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PeaceLikeaRiver
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Just stop telling other people they need to listen to God, follow God's word, etc. They already do.
That is always good advice even for those who do. We all need a Saviour. We all need to listen to God and we all need to study God's word...and keep on doing it---and NONE of us should stop exhorting and encouraging others to do so.
Nowhere in scripture are we told to "venerate" Mary. Jesus never mentioned it in the four gospels, and no were in the epistles is her name mentioned. This would be called the tradition of man and not of God. I would think it would have been spoken of if that was what we are suppose to do. Jesus did honor his mother, but he never did he exalt her to any other position. Mary is not the mother of God, she was the mother of Jesus. Jesus's divine nature came from His Father, his human body and nature was from his mother. Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God.
PeaceLikeaRiver
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But Catholics do not practice Sola Scriptura, so I'm not sure exactly what point you are making.
Indeed, as she also said "Generations will call me blessed." Both are true.
She was referred to very directly as Mother of our Lord very directly by Elizabeth in Luke.
And yes, I read the entire document of the Council of Trent. I think we discussed the nature of Mary in here before. I explained what her being sinless meant and that it still required her need of a savior, not that she was without need of one. Perhaps that's for another day too. Let's not get off track
Yes, Mary was the mother of Jesus, as Jesus is Lord, but she was not the mother of God!
Buy the way we are all blessed.
Catholics know that the scriptures are God's message to the world. If you don't hold to the truth and inerrancy of the scriptures, then what have you got to stand on for truth? Do you disagree with this verse below?
John 17:17 (NLT)
Make them holy by your truth; teach them your word, which is truth.
If you do, hence the great divide.
It's not that we disagree with Christ's divinity, but we disagree on the meaning of "mother of God." We also disagree that the Scriptures doesn't say to venerate Mary. We see that Mary recognized that generations would call her blessed, that Elizabeth venerated her by saying "blessed art thou among women, and blessed art the fruit of thy womb." As did Gabrielle when he said, "Hail Mary, full of Grace. The Lord is with thee."
Indeed, Jesus' divine nature does from the Father, not Mary. Though Mary being the mother of our Lord, and the Lord being our God, this means God chose His mother, and this being Mary. We agree that Jesus was man AND God and Mary was His mother, therefore Mary was the mother of God. This doesn't mean Mary gave birth to the Father, but she was chosen to be the mother of our Lord, who is Christ, and Christ is our God. Just as Thomas said, "My Lord, My God," Likewise, Mary is the mother of our Lord, Mary is the mother of our God."
Most Christians, including Protestants, recognize this. The reformers recognized this. Modern protestants recognize this.
At no time was Mary ever sinless! I think the RCC really messed up on this one.Indeed, as she also said "Generations will call me blessed." Both are true.
She was referred to very directly as Mother of our Lord very directly by Elizabeth in Luke.
And yes, I read the entire document of the Council of Trent. I think we discussed the nature of Mary in here before. I explained what her being sinless meant and that it still required her need of a savior, not that she was without need of one. Perhaps that's for another day too. Let's not get off track
Friend, this isn't unique to the Catholic Church. Even the reformers believed this, and with great reason--this was recognized going back to the very early Church. But again, let's stay on the subject at hand. One thing at a time.
PeaceLikeaRiver
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I know you hold to Sola Scriptura Euphemia. I do not care to be challenged by you on why I, and many others, reject it. Once again, it doesn't make you right and me wrong.
I do not wish to rise to any scriptural challenges put forth by you. Please respect that.
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