Catholics, Orthodox And Friends

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Euphemia said:
Nope. What about when you disagree with so many people here? What facts do you have to prove your case? I never seem to see any. Certainly you cannot use the word of God and do refuse. So, what is your authority for what you choose to believe?
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I am allowed to disagree. What you seem to object to is the fact that when I disagree with you when you're wrong, which is often, you deflect it to God and tell me I'm disagreeing with God. I'm doing no such thing. I find what you say incongruous with God's word and I point that out, and you don't like it. Well, sorry about that. But you do the same thing using much more aggressive language and behavior. When you are given facts, you disregard them.
 
In one of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's books (better known as Pope Benedict XVI), he called worship of Mary "gravely erroneous doctrines."

In Lumen Gentium at the Vatican II council, these statements were made:
"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer." (Said in regards to Mary)
"Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power."

"It is necessary to only worship one God and no one else." -Jorge Mario Bergoglio (AKA Pope Francis).
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
That depends in the inflexibility and rigidity of one's convictions, neither of which is an indication of how correct they are.
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Only scripture is correct, and when we believe it and obey it, it becomes a part of us. So, in effect, we speak the truth of the word. We can no longer entertain falsehoods, and will be able to detect the lie and to stand against it. That is the security that comes from walking with the living Christ. those who disagree often resort to calling us inflexible and rigid among other things, but God's word is paramount as the believer's powerhouse! Hallelujah!
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
I am allowed to disagree. What you seem to object to is the fact that when I disagree with you when you're wrong, which is often, you deflect it to God and tell me I'm disagreeing with God. I'm doing no such thing. I find what you say incongruous with God's word and I point that out, and you don't like it. Well, sorry about that. But you do the same thing using much more aggressive language and behavior. When you are given facts, you disregard them.
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I am not wrong, nor have I said anything that contradicts God's word (you know---the unstable book?).
 
MMurphy said:
These are taken out of context.

The inseparable link is based on her title as Mother of God.

The second deals with the Assumption and as they see her role as an intercessor like all saints. They don't believe she is greater or equal to God though.

You obviously don't agree with these doctrines and that's fine. But they're not advocating Marian worship.
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I do not agree because they are not Biblical. They are certainly Catholic but they are not Biblical which has been my point from the get go. There are Absolutely true!!!! They are taken from the exact pages listed with the item number posted.

See.....you are denying your own faith's words because in your heart you know that they are suspect and even to you they do not sound right!!! I can see it in your posting my brother as can all of us. YOU are struggling with your own teachings because I am saying nothing but what the RCC is saying.

From the RCC...not me.............................

"At the command of Mary all obey EVEN GOD. She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the King, and since the Son's power also belongs to the mother, this mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. Therefore, to use the words of saint Antonine, God has put the whole church not only under her patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary."
[Taken from the Glories of Mary. Chapter 6, Page 114. By St. Alphonsus Liguori. He was declared "Venerable", 4 May, 1796, was beatified in 1816, and canonized in 1839. In 1871, he was declared a Doctor of the Church.]
 
Euphemia said:
Only scripture is correct, and when we believe it and obey it, it becomes a part of us. So, in effect, we speak the truth of the word. We can no longer entertain falsehoods, and will be able to detect the lie and to stand against it. That is the security that comes from walking with the living Christ. those who disagree often resort to calling us inflexible and rigid among other things, but God's word is paramount as the believer's powerhouse! Hallelujah!
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If only scripture is correct then that whole post was wrong.
 
MMurphy said:
If Peace is questioning Biblical inerrancy you guys would do him well to encourage his search for truth rather than bash him for it.

Fortunately I have seen the power of the Holy Spirit in my life and so I have accepted Christ. But if I was not comfortable with my faith I have to say the examples the some have given on this forum would not give me a good impression.
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So the comments would give you pause on whether your are a Christian or a Catholic or whether the RCC teaching in non-Biblical. Help us out and be clear here so we are all on the same page!
 
Major said:
I do not agree because they are not Biblical. They are certainly Catholic but they are not Biblical which has been my point from the get go. There are Absolutely true!!!! They are taken from the exact pages listed with the item number posted.

See.....you are denying your own faith's words because in your heart you know that they are suspect and even to you they do not sound right!!! I can see it in your posting my brother as can all of us. YOU are struggling with your own teachings because I am saying nothing but what the RCC is saying.

From the RCC...not me.............................

"At the command of Mary all obey EVEN GOD. She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the King, and since the Son's power also belongs to the mother, this mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. Therefore, to use the words of saint Antonine, God has put the whole church not only under her patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary."
[Taken from the Glories of Mary. Chapter 6, Page 114. By St. Alphonsus Liguori. He was declared "Venerable", 4 May, 1796, was beatified in 1816, and canonized in 1839. In 1871, he was declared a Doctor of the Church.]
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It's true that many people hold concern with Mary's title as the Queen of Heaven because it people think it suggests she is a goddess. But that's not how it is meant in the slightest. Mary's title as queen of heaven is brought from reference of Scripture; 1) from Revelation 12 where it mentions a woman with a crown of stars and a moon under her feet, as recognized as Mary (though I believe the non-Catholic position is that this is Christ's Church as portrayed as a woman). And 2) as reference to David's Kingship with his Queen Mother. As Christ is the new King, so Mary is the new Queen Mother.

I understand and respect that non-Catholic Christians will not agree with this, but this is the meaning of these statements. Not that Mary is a goddess, on equal level as God, or is to be worshiped.

On one hand, I am actually very understanding to Protestant concern with Mary because the less it is discussed, the more it can be misunderstood, and if the only understanding someone gets from it is "worship of Mary" then a concern is reasonable, especially since it is due to one's love for God. However, the sad part is many times it goes to an extreme where many protestants disregard Mary altogether and don't even honor her. She is merely another figure in the Bible.
 
Major said:
I do not agree because they are not Biblical. They are certainly Catholic but they are not Biblical which has been my point from the get go. There are Absolutely true!!!! They are taken from the exact pages listed with the item number posted.

See.....you are denying your own faith's words because in your heart you know that they are suspect and even to you they do not sound right!!! I can see it in your posting my brother as can all of us. YOU are struggling with your own teachings because I am saying nothing but what the RCC is saying.

From the RCC...not me.............................

"At the command of Mary all obey EVEN GOD. She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the King, and since the Son's power also belongs to the mother, this mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. Therefore, to use the words of saint Antonine, God has put the whole church not only under her patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary."
[Taken from the Glories of Mary. Chapter 6, Page 114. By St. Alphonsus Liguori. He was declared "Venerable", 4 May, 1796, was beatified in 1816, and canonized in 1839. In 1871, he was declared a Doctor of the Church.]
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Major, you are being misleading. Whatever St. Alphonsus Liguori may have written is not RCC doctrine.
Don't confuse the error of one with the doctrine of the Roman Church.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
Major, you did good in citing these statements.
PeaceLikeaRiver, Major did indeed provide solid official statements from the Catholic Church.

That said, as I also love Major to pieces (really, the guy is a class act), I have to respectfully disagree with his interpretation of what these mean because it contradicts statements from the Catholic commentary -- not just from the Catechism (I'll try to find some examples). For instance, where it mentions Mary being linked with the saving work of her Son, it is speaking in regards to God's work through her, her obedience to God, and even her own sacrifice as a mother as she felt pain when her own Son was crucified. She was pretty much the first Christian and played a very significant role in Christ's sacrifice.

And the Church does indeed recognize Mary interceding in our prayers. This isn't meant to be taken as her being a second mediator between man and God -- there is only one mediator and that's Christ -- but she continues to serve God in heaven, and just as she directed people to her Son at the wedding of Cana, she continues to direct us to her Son in heaven.

This is the meaning of it anyway. It doesn't suggest Mary to be worshiped or on an equal field as her Son. Though I can understand if people misinterpret it, because without explanation, anything can be misread, including something like this.
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Thankfully we come to an agreement!!! Thank you Larry and as always blessing to you.

If you find those examples please post them because I could not locate any. That being the case, then the "traditions" would then have to stand.

I believe that YOU do understand what the other two tag team members were failing to grasp that I was saying. The Catholic church is the Catholic church and has practices and teaching that the Protestant church many years ago rejected. Those practices are simply not in the Bible but are in the Catechism which does not necessarily make them all Christian doctrines. I hope that is clear, and I believe I am correct on that comment. In fact the reason they were rejected by the reformers was the fact that they were not in the Bible....correct???
 
Glomung said:
Major, you are being misleading. Whatever St. Alphonsus Liguori may have written is not RCC doctrine.
Don't confuse the error of one with the doctrine of the Roman Church.
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Was his comments rejected or condemned by the Church? I looked for that rejection before posting it and could not find one.
 
Major said:
I do not agree because they are not Biblical. They are certainly Catholic but they are not Biblical which has been my point from the get go. There are Absolutely true!!!! They are taken from the exact pages listed with the item number posted.

See.....you are denying your own faith's words because in your heart you know that they are suspect and even to you they do not sound right!!! I can see it in your posting my brother as can all of us. YOU are struggling with your own teachings because I am saying nothing but what the RCC is saying.

From the RCC...not me.............................

"At the command of Mary all obey EVEN GOD. She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the King, and since the Son's power also belongs to the mother, this mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. Therefore, to use the words of saint Antonine, God has put the whole church not only under her patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary."
[Taken from the Glories of Mary. Chapter 6, Page 114. By St. Alphonsus Liguori. He was declared "Venerable", 4 May, 1796, was beatified in 1816, and canonized in 1839. In 1871, he was declared a Doctor of the Church.]
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Major, I am not Catholic! I do not go to a Catholic church. I attend Assemblies of God which is Pentecostal. I've only once attended an Orthodox liturgy. That is the doubt you are hearing because I'm in the middle of Protestantism and cathocism/Orthodoxy. I just defend my catholic friends because I feel their faith is misrepresented.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
It's true that many people hold concern with Mary's title as the Queen of Heaven because it people think it suggests she is a goddess. But that's not how it is meant in the slightest. Mary's title as queen of heaven is brought from reference of Scripture; 1) from Revelation 12 where it mentions a woman with a crown of stars and a moon under her feet, as recognized as Mary (though I believe the non-Catholic position is that this is Christ's Church as portrayed as a woman). And 2) as reference to David's Kingship with his Queen Mother. As Christ is the new King, so Mary is the new Queen Mother.

I understand and respect that non-Catholic Christians will not agree with this, but this is the meaning of these statements. Not that Mary is a goddess, on equal level as God, or is to be worshiped.

On one hand, I am actually very understanding to Protestant concern with Mary because the less it is discussed, the more it can be misunderstood, and if the only understanding someone gets from it is "worship of Mary" then a concern is reasonable, especially since it is due to one's love for God. However, the sad part is many times it goes to an extreme where many protestants disregard Mary altogether and don't even honor her. She is merely another figure in the Bible.
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Praise God! A Catholic believer who actually gets it!!!!!

Now we can move on to a deeper discussion if so desired.
 
Major said:
Was his comments rejected or condemned by the Church? I looked for that rejection before posting it and could not find one.
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His statements (on this issue) are in disagreement with church doctrine. But why would you feel that it would need to be formally condemned?

Have the Protestant crowds formally condemned the heresy that is rampant in their ranks? (Beeny Hinn, Copeland, etc)
 
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