Catholics, Orthodox And Friends

[MMurphy]

Inside Catholicism as well as outside of it, many are saved and many are not. If one wants to be received as saved, one must always declare that they have received Jesus as Saviour, and put their faith in Him. No one is saved by their affiliation.

Not even Catholics believe this.

 

[Major]

Indeed. I'm probably wording this poorly. Believe you me, I'm with you. It would be nice, for a change, to be able to discuss Christianity from the Catholic perspective without it being interrupted. I don't mind if people weigh in their perspective from their perspective, but sometimes if it comes down to "prove to me how you are right" then the discussion does get put aside into defense of the faith itself.

It seems to me that there should be a way for this site to open a "Catholic Room" for only those who are Catholic. That way, debate from Protestant believers could be discouraged and not allowed unless it was positive and motivational. I really do not see why that would not be possible to do.

 

[Major]

In the Catholic words the difference is that they also adhere to sacred tradition as they read scripture.

BUT.......again, tradition comes from the heart of man my brother and salvation comes from the Grace of God and the two just do not mix.

When one accepts tradition he is assuming that whatever it is that whenever it began it was correct and proper back then. How many things over the years have with time be proven to be wrong. If we can not learn and grow from mistakes we are all in desperate measures. We can not stick with a tradition if it is wrong. That is the lowest for of ignorance IMO.

 

[Euphemia]

Not even Catholics believe this.

My overall point is now made. They seem to defy Christian unity in that case.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

NO He is not. The Major quoted the Catholic Churches OWN words as applied to the doctrines of the Bible.

It is the words of the Catholic Church that Mary is coequal with God? I think not. Let's let Lysander confirm.

 

[Major]

I agree that it is divisive, and I do agree with you...but if this one is shut down, so should the other thread that explicitly excluded Catholics from weighing in.

I'd like to see each thread open to different perspectives.

I did not know there was a thread which excluded Catholics from weighing in. That is news to me.

 

[Major]

As I think I mentioned there are Bibles in Catholic churches if the need should arise, but I still don't see it happening. Much of what goes on in a Catholic church service isn't going to require people delving into their Bibles.

And WHY is that the case?????

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

BUT.......again, tradition comes from the heart of man my brother and salvation comes from the Grace of God and the two just do not mix.

In the Catholic church, there are three things: Sacred scripture, sacred tradition, and the Magisterium. Each as "man made" as the one before it. I humbly suggest people read up on these traditions and church teachings before discarding them.

When one accepts tradition he is assuming that whatever it is that whenever it began it was correct and proper back then. How many things over the years have with time be proven to be wrong.

Consider, however, the changing to the texts of the scriptures over time. They are translated and retranslated and mistranslated over and over. To my mind that makes them as unstable (or stable if you prefer) as sacred traditions.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

And WHY is that the case?????

Because, as has been stated, the point of a Catholic mass is not to be a Bible Study. It is to hear, reflect and meditate on the lesson. Bible studies take place separate from the mass.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I did not know there was a thread which excluded Catholics from weighing in. That is news to me.

It's not the first one I've seen, but there's one currently active which, in its title says "No Catholics" as a request. I'm honoring that request, but I wish I could comment. I won't out of respect of the poster.

I don't attribute this to most in here -- and I don't put this on all who are non-Catholics...actually, I've felt fairly welcomed by many Protestants here (otherwise I would have left long ago). But it's true that some here have made some of us Catholics feel very unwelcome and made it clear.

 

[Euphemia]

In the Catholic church, there are three things: Sacred scripture, sacred tradition, and the Magisterium. Each as "man made" as the one before it. I humbly suggest people read up on these traditions and church teachings before discarding them.

But that is not describing the Church of Jesus Christ.

Consider, however, the changing to the texts of the scriptures over time. They are translated and retranslated and mistranslated over and over. To my mind that makes them as unstable (or stable if you prefer) as sacred traditions.

That is a false belief. God's word is perfect. If you believe it isn't, then you have nothing to stand on for truth, and you contradict what God has told us, which sows discord and disunity.

 

[MMurphy]

BUT.......again, tradition comes from the heart of man my brother and salvation comes from the Grace of God and the two just do not mix.

When one accepts tradition he is assuming that whatever it is that whenever it began it was correct and proper back then. How many things over the years have with time be proven to be wrong. If we can not learn and grow from mistakes we are all in desperate measures. We can not stick with a tradition if it is wrong. That is the lowest for of ignorance IMO.

If you believe the Gospels you necessarily believe tradition because they were written down from an oral tradition.

You say well God protected the Gospels from error. Okay, but Catholics just believe God protected all of their traditions from error.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

My overall point is now made. They seem to defy Christian unity in that case.

Your understanding of a person being "saved" though is extremely new in the overall picture. At the time of the Reformation no one understood salvation in this way at all. And today many Christians do not understand "being saved" as you do. So the Christian unity you speak of sounds a bit utopian. Doesn't sound like it's ever been there. At least not since the Reformation.

 

[Major]

They take every word of the Bible verbatim without any respect to the allegorical, the metaphorical, the hyperbolic, the poetic or the mystical, then accuse everyone who does not of going against the Word.

They demand the Creation story be taken as literal, and taught as though it were science.

They pay no respect to those who disagree with them.

They are hypocritical, because they never succeed in keeping all the rules they seek to impose on others.

They speak self-righteously, usually appointing themselves as defenders of the faith.

They accuse others who sincerely follow their heart as "compromising" the faith.

They are intent on maintaining that contradictions to their statements or beliefs are not contradictions.

They claim the right to judge others.

They judge others.

They claim that God is hateful.

They believe logic is unbiblical.

They believe science is unbiblical.

They believe claiming logic and science are biblical is unbiblical.

They believe their beliefs come from God and all others do not.

They do not believe tradition is sacred.

They do not believe charity is possible outside of the Christian community.

They believe good works are meaningless.

They believe people with good hearts will go to Hell.

They believe Hell is a literal place of eternal conscience torment.

They believe that most people go to Hell.

They believe people who disagree with them go to Hell.

They believe if you deny Hell you will go to Hell.

They believe Hell is the center of their faith.

They believe the world in becoming more immoral not less.

In as nice a way as I can say it......this post about fundamental, orthodox Christians is exactly why there is such a division between Protestant and Catholic faiths. This post was given by a Catholic NOT a Protestant and it is fundamentally wrong and factually incorrect. It is Mr. MMurphy's personal opinion and I for one disagree totally with him and his opinion.

His post is not a debate or a correction or anything that came be built upon. It does and will do ONE thing. Cause a further division and arguments over it and it really shows that he has very little Biblical understanding.

 

[Euphemia]

Your understanding of a person being "saved" though is extremely new in the overall picture. At the time of the Reformation no one understood salvation in this way at all. And today many Christians do not understand "being saved" as you do. So the Christian unity you speak of sounds a bit utopian. Doesn't sound like it's ever been there. At least not since the Reformation.

No, it is at least 2000 years old!

The spotless Bride is spotless because she is in unity.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

It is the words of the Catholic Church that Mary is coequal with God? I think not. Let's let Lysander confirm.

Haha, well I'm not any kind of authority, but I do know my faith and can back it up. PeaceLikeaRiver is right that the Catholic Church, while honors Mary and has a devotion to her as the mother of God, it has been stated over and over again, including in the Catechism (so it is official) that Mary is not to be adored, meaning worshiped. Adoration is reserved strictly for God. But just as we are to honor our parents, we are to do this for Mary because she is the mother of our Lord.

Paragraph 971 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) says:
"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.

This means that Marian devotion should be fueled by our worship of Christ (we love her because we love her Son even more so on a level of adoration). It also states the distinction that it is a special devotion, but one that differs from adoration which is reserved for the incarnate Word (Christ), the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

If any Catholic does indeed worship Mary (and some probably do misguidedly), then they are going against God and very obviously against Catholic Church teaching as well.

 

[ThomasA]

You do know this is a Christian forum right? When you say "anti-catholic beliefs" Are you referring to anti Bible beliefs? Everything done on this Forum is based solely on the Word of God, and without that you have only speculations and theories that do absolutely nothing for those seeking truth.

This is true, sadly.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

But that is not describing the Church of Jesus Christ.

It is describing this particular branch of it, yes.

That is a false belief. God's word is perfect.

You are incorrect. As Exhibit A, all I need to do is present to you the names of a few different Bible translations. Some people insist the KJV is the only one to be trusted. Are you one of those people? What about those who think you are wrong about the translation you have chosen?

If you believe it isn't, then you have nothing to stand on for truth, and you contradict what God has told us, which sows discord and disunity.

Not rising to your bait, Euphemia. You don't make the rules here.

 

[Major]

If you believe the Gospels you necessarily believe tradition because they were written down from an oral tradition.

You say well God protected the Gospels from error. Okay, but Catholics just believe God protected all of their traditions from error.

I do not know about everyone else as I can only speak to my concerns and I never said that traditions were wrong. Some say that all tradition is wrong, or at least all tradition in regards to their church or Christianity as a whole, mostly due to the abuses of some professed Christian denominations and churches who appeal to tradition as being co-equal or perhaps superior to Scriptures.
The RCC provides one of the most serious examples of this, wherein the church itself, or more specifically the Popes of this church, claim that they can establish "sacred tradition" and that it becomes authoritative and must be mandatorily believed and practiced by the church as a whole.

THAT is my concern. When "Traditions of men" over power the Word of God and change it. That is what I have stated and is my position.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

No, it is at least 2000 years old!

The Sinner's Prayer, recited by people who in fundamentalist circles wish to be "saved", is not 2000 years old. So your point is demonstrably false.