Demons + 2 freaky incidents

Silk said:
To say, for instance, that Christ casting out demons is a metaphor/allegory/parable and in context scripture says it was/is reality. Parables as stories or examples of the truth in a given situation - again is not metaphor. I may tell you a story and leave out names and locals and some minutae but that doesn't mean the situation never really happened. It is the understanding of the truth that is prominent. If I misunderstood your direction on the subject in this thread - apologies. You seemed to be saying Jesus casting out demons was metaphor and that demons/evil spirits don't really exist, except as boogeymen. My past experience in real life and scripture refute what you are typing.
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Something being nonliteral doesn't mean it isn't reality; in fact, that is the point of metaphor, it uses a figure of speech so that people can understand an idealized scenario to comprehend the subtle truths inherent in complex real-life scenarios.
The use of idioms is essential to language, and these idioms are different for every language. When someone says they "heard it on the grapevine" they obviously don't mean they get their gossip from plants, it's a figure of speech.
Religious and philosophical literature is full of these phrases, unfortunately people seem to lose the understanding of the metaphor and begin to take the phrase as it seems. They'd be outside listening to grapevines trying to get the latest scoop because they don't know that it wasn't a literal phrase.
Using "demons" as a figure of speech is even still in use today, someone "battles their demons" and such. It is not at all unreasonable to apply this understanding to biblical use of it as well.
The demons do exist, but they are not satanic "beings" in the sense everyone here has portrayed i.e. that can act of their own volition and can control people or physical things. Demons are much like our metaphorical use of the word suggests, the dark, vicious tendencies that corrupt us humans. And I do believe Jesus "casts out" such evil. Just not a mystical bunch of apparitions that can hijack humans.

Feel free to disagree, of course :) This is how I understand it, not because of ignorance (I used to be very apologetic and have made every argument out there) but because this is most consistent with reason and objective reality.
 
Hadron said:
Feel free to disagree, of course :) This is how I understand it, not because of ignorance (I used to be very apologetic and have made every argument out there) but because this is most consistent with reason and objective reality.
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o.
I do feel free to disagree, so no worries. The rest of your statement (above) makes no literal or metaphoric sense to me. Scripture, in context, does not claim/state or support an idea that demons are metaphors. That in common speak we use demons as metaphors does NOT make them so in scripture. That you witnessed "demons" of varieties such as common cold demons or demons of lust, smoking, or alcohol - growing up does not speak to folks who have witnessed very real partial (not complete) possessions and oppressions of modern day people. We are speaking of 2 almost completely different situations. I won't speak to the kind you grew up with because I tend to concur with most of the research folks who indicate that rarely do these deliverance ministries actually run into the type that I and others are posting to. Human beings can sin without the help of supernatural spirits helping. But these very sins open the door to receive these self same spirits you think are metaphors to cause extensive damage to whole families, groups, and even churches. We are talking 2 very different demonic strategy and tactics. They both have the same aim - to destroy. It's called "spiritual warfare" and to be unaware of it is very risky. And scripture is about "spiritual" warfare.
 
Indeed @ Silk.

My wife and I are involved in a deliverance ministry (drunkenness and pharmakeia aka alcohol and drugs). I also am involved in prison fellowship (plenty of the same issues there, as well). Satan and his devils are not metaphorical. The warfare rages at my house (and the victories are sweet! Thank you, Lord!).
 
Hadron said:
*posts a passive-aggressive reply that doesn't address anything or add to the conversation*

;)
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Your lack of valid experiences does not in any way reflect upon the reality of the phenomena.
Ignorance is a poor excuse for a stance on anything.
 
There is a very enlightneing book that is free on the net -> Hostage to the Devil.
It was written by an expert on the subject.
 
Glomung said:
Your lack of valid experiences does not in any way reflect upon the reality of the phenomena.
Ignorance is a poor excuse for a stance on anything.
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It doesn't work that way, the burden of proof is on providing evidence that something does exist. Why believe in something without reason? That's nonsensical by definition.
Occam's razor says that all things equal, don't make an explanation more complicated than it calls for.
The explanation that makes infinitely more sense is that use of the term metaphorically describes inner vices. This understanding illuminates scripture.
 
Hadron said:
It doesn't work that way, the burden of proof is on providing evidence that something does exist. Why believe in something without reason? That's nonsensical by definition.
Occam's razor says that all things equal, don't make an explanation more complicated than it calls for.
The explanation that makes infinitely more sense is that use of the term metaphorically describes inner vices. This understanding illuminates scripture.
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You are applying the notion that "I aint seen it, so therfore it aint so."
Leave Occam's razor out of it, you don't know how to use it.
You still fail to grasp the bloody obvious, when Jesus was speaking to demons He was speaking to real beings, as scripture plainly states.
It wasn't metaphorical inner vices that asked to go into the herd of pigs.
It wasn't allegory that possessed the man in the tombs so that all feared to come near.
When the demons said "we know Paul, but who are you?" they were REAL BEINGS speaking.
To claim to require hard evidence on a forum is a COP OUT.
Apparently the idea of real malevolent beings existing terrifies you so greatly that you have applied the tried and true "head-in-the-sand" approach to it.
Frankly I shouldn't care either way, but ignorance on this subject gets people killed.
 
Silk said:
Scripture, in context, does not claim/state or support an idea that demons are metaphors.
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I disagree. One way makes sense, the other stretches the bounds of reason and experience in order to affirm it.

Silk said:
[. . .] folks who have witnessed very real partial (not complete) possessions and oppressions of modern day people.
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I have never seen even a hint of evidence of such things, and not due to lack of looking, which is what I mean to convey by mentioning my upbringing.

Silk said:
It's called "spiritual warfare" and to be unaware of it is very risky. And scripture is about "spiritual" warfare.
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That's just it, people don't talk about anything actually spiritual. They say "spiritual" but mean physical and mental. What I suggest when I say metaphorical is closer to the idea of "spiritual". Which is itself a figure of speech.
 
Glomung said:
You are applying the notion that "I aint seen it, so therfore it aint so."
Leave Occam's razor out of it, you don't know how to use it.
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You say these things but don't back them up.
I imagine you've heard the common argument comparison to unicorns. Without reason to believe they exist, it simply makes more sense to not.

Glomung said:
You still fail to grasp the bloody obvious, when Jesus was speaking to demons He was speaking to real beings, as scripture plainly states.
It wasn't metaphorical inner vices that asked to go into the herd of pigs.
It wasn't allegory that possessed the man in the tombs so that all feared to come near.
When the demons said "we know Paul, but who are you?" they were REAL BEINGS speaking.
To claim to require hard evidence on a forum is a COP OUT.
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But you see, that depiction is filtered through a two-thousand year old worldview that was influenced by mysticism. To pretend that magic is still a valid explanation today is merely being stubborn. We must take the valuable part of Scripture and apply it to our world today, while understanding the parts that were merely cultural.
This is why bible scholars exist. It's a complicated study and in no way "obvious" or "plainly stated."
And it is in no way too much to ask for evidence of unsubstantiated claims.

Glomung said:
Apparently the idea of real malevolent beings existing terrifies you so greatly that you have applied the tried and true "head-in-the-sand" approach to it.
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This is an ad hominem. The validity of an argument is judged by it's own merit. To dismiss it with this is a red herring that does not address the actual argument.

Glomung said:
Frankly I shouldn't care either way, but ignorance on this subject gets people killed.
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Nobody has ever been literally slain by a demon, and I implore you to provide objective evidence for such a strong claim.
 
Does the Bible really teach that demons exist? Yes, most definitely, and we see this in three ways. First, the existence of demons is mentioned by every New Testament writer except the author of Hebrews (the latter does, however, mention Satan, who is the head of demons). A second way in which the Scriptures teach the existence of demons is apparent in that Jesus recognized the existence of demons: Not only did he positively teach that demons really do exist (Mt. 7:22; 10:8; 12:27-28; 25:41; Mk. 7:29; 16:17; Lk. 10:20; 11:18-20; 13:52), but he also affirmed this through his actions by casting out demons (Mt. 12:22-29; Mk. 1:39; 5:1-20; Lk. 4:35, 41; 8:29-33; 9:12; 11:14). A third way that the Bible clearly teaches the existence of demons is that the disciples - both within (Mt. 10:1) and without (Lk. 10:17) the apostolic group - recognized the existence of demons.

In a general sense, demons' activities consist of three main facets. First, they try to block the purpose of God. One example of this is found in Daniel 10:10-14, where we learn that a leading demon held an angel of God captive for three weeks to try to prevent God's revelation to Daniel. In the future, demons will aid in gathering the nations for Armageddon to try to halt God's plan for the Second Coming (Rev. 16:12-16).

A second general activity is to extend Satan's authority over his cosmos by doing his bidding (Eph. 2:1-2; 6:11-12).

The third broad demonic activity is God's use of demons to carry out his own purposes, plan, and will. For example, a demon was used to torment Saul (I Sam. 16:14). A lying demon was used to arrange for the death of Ahab (I Ki. 22:19-23). And a demon was used to keep Paul humble (II Cor. 12:7).

In a more specific sense, we should be aware of 13 particular activities carried out by demons: First, demons are related to the control of nations. Just as God has good angels controlling nations, Satan has evil angels controlling nations (Dan 10:10-14, 20-21). Second, demons can and do inflict physical maladies. For instance, a demon can inflict dumbness or muteness (Mt. 9:32-33; 12:22; Mk. 9:17), deafness (Mk. 9:25), curvature of the spine (Lk. 9:12-16), epilepsy (Mt. 17:15-18; Mk. 9:20; Lk. 9:37-42), blindness (Mt. 12:22), and personal injury (Mk. 9:18). Demons can inflict physical maladies, but not all physical maladies are caused by demons. There is a distinction between physical problems caused by human frailty and those caused by demons (Mt. 4:24; 8:16). A third particular activity is that demons can cause insanity (Mk. 5:1-5; Lk. 8:26-27). Fourth, they can give great physical strength (Mk. 5:1-4; Lk. 8:29). Fifth, they can cause suicide (Mk. 9:22). Sixth, demons can possess animals (Mk. 5:12-13). Seventh, demons promote idolatry (Lev. 17:7; Is. 65:11; Deut. 32:17; Zech. 13:2; Hos. 4:12; Acts 17:22; I Cor. 10:20). Eighth, they can cause men to worship demons (Rev. 9:20-21). Ninth, demons cause impurity and immorality (Lk. 8:27). Tenth, demons promote false doctrine (I Tim. 4:11; Ja. 3:15; I Jn. 4:1). Eleventh, they oppose the spiritual growth of believers (Eph. 6:12). And, twelfth, they attempt to separate believers from the love of God (Rom. 8:38). The thirteenth activity is the control of men from within, something that can be covered in another thread.
 
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Hadron said:
I fundamentally disagree, but I have no delusion of changing your mind; I respectfully agree to disagree.
The main point I mean to communicate is that I think it is unwise to promote fear of "demons;" as the fear is a greater vice than is potentially being averted.
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I believe in demons but I don't fear them at all. It's God you should fear, not Satan.
 
Hadron said:
It doesn't work that way, the burden of proof is on providing evidence that something does exist. Why believe in something without reason? That's nonsensical by definition.
Occam's razor says that all things equal, don't make an explanation more complicated than it calls for.
The explanation that makes infinitely more sense is that use of the term metaphorically describes inner vices. This understanding illuminates scripture.
Click to expand...

I have used one of those razors before and I did not like it at all. It just did not shave me close enough.
 
Hadron said:
Something being nonliteral doesn't mean it isn't reality; in fact, that is the point of metaphor, it uses a figure of speech so that people can understand an idealized scenario to comprehend the subtle truths inherent in complex real-life scenarios.
The use of idioms is essential to language, and these idioms are different for every language. When someone says they "heard it on the grapevine" they obviously don't mean they get their gossip from plants, it's a figure of speech.
Religious and philosophical literature is full of these phrases, unfortunately people seem to lose the understanding of the metaphor and begin to take the phrase as it seems. They'd be outside listening to grapevines trying to get the latest scoop because they don't know that it wasn't a literal phrase.
Using "demons" as a figure of speech is even still in use today, someone "battles their demons" and such. It is not at all unreasonable to apply this understanding to biblical use of it as well.
The demons do exist, but they are not satanic "beings" in the sense everyone here has portrayed i.e. that can act of their own volition and can control people or physical things. Demons are much like our metaphorical use of the word suggests, the dark, vicious tendencies that corrupt us humans. And I do believe Jesus "casts out" such evil. Just not a mystical bunch of apparitions that can hijack humans.

Feel free to disagree, of course :) This is how I understand it, not because of ignorance (I used to be very apologetic and have made every argument out there) but because this is most consistent with reason and objective reality.
Click to expand...
What is your thought on angels? Do you believe angels exists and they are separate existing beings? Do you believe angels have a ministry even today?
 
Hadron said:
Something being nonliteral doesn't mean it isn't reality; in fact, that is the point of metaphor, it uses a figure of speech so that people can understand an idealized scenario to comprehend the subtle truths inherent in complex real-life scenarios.
The use of idioms is essential to language, and these idioms are different for every language. When someone says they "heard it on the grapevine" they obviously don't mean they get their gossip from plants, it's a figure of speech.
Religious and philosophical literature is full of these phrases, unfortunately people seem to lose the understanding of the metaphor and begin to take the phrase as it seems. They'd be outside listening to grapevines trying to get the latest scoop because they don't know that it wasn't a literal phrase.
Using "demons" as a figure of speech is even still in use today, someone "battles their demons" and such. It is not at all unreasonable to apply this understanding to biblical use of it as well.
The demons do exist, but they are not satanic "beings" in the sense everyone here has portrayed i.e. that can act of their own volition and can control people or physical things. Demons are much like our metaphorical use of the word suggests, the dark, vicious tendencies that corrupt us humans. And I do believe Jesus "casts out" such evil. Just not a mystical bunch of apparitions that can hijack humans.

Feel free to disagree, of course :) This is how I understand it, not because of ignorance (I used to be very apologetic and have made every argument out there) but because this is most consistent with reason and objective reality.
Click to expand...

The Bible tells us that angels are ministering spirits for the saints of God as seen in Hebrews 1:14.
1 Peter 1:12 says they have knowledge but are not omniscient. 2 Peter 2:11 tells us that thy have great strength but are not omnipotent.

Just as that is true, the Bible teaches that there are "Fallen Angels" who we commonly refer to as "demons". They have fallen just as did Satan. He wanted to receive the praise that went to God and was cast our of heaven as seen in Isaiah 14:12-15. Satan was able to encourage 1/3 of all angels to follow him and they are at Satan's command. For that reason, there is constant warfare in the
heavenlies between the angels of God and the fallen angels of Satan.

The "Unsound Doctrine" of many today is that these fallen angles are not real and in fact are fragments of our imagination and are metaphorical and do not actually exist. There are always TWO extremes to every thesis. This one is no different. One is that we give too much credit to demons for the actions that we chose to take and the other is that they do not exist at all.

May I say to you all that the reality is somewhere in the middle of those two extremes. "Sound Bible " doctrine is that God created angels to worship Him and serve Him and His saints. Some of those angels choose to rebel against God and therefore were judged and sentenced by God and removed from heaven. Today they afflict men and oppose God at every turn because they are REAL and literal.
 
Major said:
The Bible tells us that angels are ministering spirits for the saints of God as seen in Hebrews 1:14.
1 Peter 1:12 says they have knowledge but are not omniscient. 2 Peter 2:11 tells us that thy have great strength but are not omnipotent.

Just as that is true, the Bible teaches that there are "Fallen Angels" who we commonly refer to as "demons". They have fallen just as did Satan. He wanted to receive the praise that went to God and was cast our of heaven as seen in Isaiah 14:12-15. Satan was able to encourage 1/3 of all angels to follow him and they are at Satan's command. For that reason, there is constant warfare in the
heavenlies between the angels of God and the fallen angels of Satan.

The "Unsound Doctrine" of many today is that these fallen angles are not real and in fact are fragments of our imagination and are metaphorical and do not actually exist. There are always TWO extremes to every thesis. This one is no different. One is that we give too much credit to demons for the actions that we chose to take and the other is that they do not exist at all.

May I say to you all that the reality is somewhere in the middle of those two extremes. "Sound Bible " doctrine is that God created angels to worship Him and serve Him and His saints. Some of those angels choose to rebel against God and therefore were judged and sentenced by God and removed from heaven. Today they afflict men and oppose God at every turn because they are REAL and literal.
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I just started with a simple question and now you have explained everything I wanted to :D
 
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