Do you believe in predestination?

To be honest, I want to grasp everything that is in scripture, and believe it as true. I don't want to be somone who picks and chooses what they will accept and what they won't accept. But the biggest hurdle I am having with the principle of pre-destination, is that it is hard to try and follow the greatest commandment and also not fight the idea that that person may not be one of the elect.

I'm just being honest here. I believe that is why it is so much easier to hold on to free will,true or not. The idea of free will gives a more tangible personal hope fo the salvation of our friends and family. I know that we do not know who is chosen(predestinated), so to not have hope for anyone else is totally unfounded. Does predestination mean that some of our neighbors will not be saved, not because they did not hear and believe, but because they were never supposed to believe in the first place?
 
I do not see any conflict- have you read the whole thread? I believe that both predestiantion and free will are quite true at the same time.
 
Boanerges said:
I do not see any conflict- have you read the whole thread? I believe that both predestiantion and free will are quite true at the same time.
Click to expand...

Yes..in a way it is like God giving us the talents, but it is up to us how much we will give him back in return.
 
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I am just looking at this one particular scripture with a very open mind.

The word 'called' here in Greek (I believe?), most likely means invited or addressed by name (Kaleo).

Doesn't He know all our names?

It says "For whom he did foreknow..."
He foreknew every single one of us, didn't he?

He knew us each from the womb, not just some of us~

I also believe he has called everyone or invited everyone but some will not take heed to His calling and God already knows who will and won't.
Not because He designed our destiny, but because he knows our actions before we perform them.

This is how I understand it.

If I get up from this chair and trip and fall, God already knew I was going to do this, before I was born.
He did not make me trip and fall though.
I fell because God gave me the ability to think and walk and I chose to get up and attempt to walk.

So wasn't it actually predestined for ALL mankind to serve God as these scriptures indicate?

Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

​
 
Hey guys,
I'm glad to see that people are seeking the truth. There's always those on these forums that like to just share their opinions and add confusion, and we'll always have them around. Hopefully I'm not one of that type. I just wanted to share what the Lord has shown me concerning this subject. I just did a very long study with Him on this and it was a lot of reading. He led me to a site where I got the answer to my FINAL question that I ended up having. Here's a link to the article, it's the only place I've ever seen that has a clear answer to this. For me personally, it came down to this. There has to be more than one will represented to us by God in his Word. For those of you that would like to learn something totally amazing and grow closer to the Lord in your understanding of Him and his ways and his Word and clear up a lot of confusion, I suggest it to you as well. This I say only if you've already studied this without being able to come to the conclusion that you just can't really answer the questions for sure.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1995/1580_Are_There_Two_Wills_in_God/

I hate to just post a link, but it's a very long topic and it's a lot easier to just do that. If anyone has any questions or would like to comment on it, please feel free as you are (usually) to do that. Thanks, and God blesses ya,
Marc
 
violet said:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.​


Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.​

I am just looking at this one particular scripture with a very open mind.​

The word 'called' here in Greek (I believe?), most likely means invited or addressed by name (Kaleo).​


Doesn't He know all our names?​

It says "For whom he did foreknow..."
He foreknew every single one of us, didn't he?​

He knew us each from the womb, not just some of us~​

I also believe he has called everyone or invited everyone but some will not take heed to His calling and God already knows who will and won't.
Not because He designed our destiny, but because he knows our actions before we perform them.​

This is how I understand it.​

If I get up from this chair and trip and fall, God already knew I was going to do this, before I was born.
He did not make me trip and fall though.
I fell because God gave me the ability to think and walk and I chose to get up and attempt to walk.​

So wasn't it actually predestined for ALL mankind to serve God as these scriptures indicate?​

​
Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.​


Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​
Click to expand...
Yes Violet, you are correct! The word Kaleo does mean invite! Like in the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22, he says that MANY are called and FEW are chosen. Where it is usually translated "bidden" or "called" or "invited" they are all the same word "Kaleo". Interesting huh? You can always just use one of those words instead of reading it with different words if it helps to make more sense of it.

Unfortunately I can't say that I agree with God having called ALL people, I believe that the calling it is speaking of refers to the calling to partake of Christ and bear fruit in the wilderness similar to the experience of the Israelites. We're all in our own personal wilderness. Just like where it says MANY are called, it doesn't say ALL does it, know what I mean? Also in it says in,

Romans 8:28
"And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that ARE called according to his purpose."

Notice, them that ARE called!
Here's some more just to confirm it for ya.

1 Corinthians 1:26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, ARE called:

Romans 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Corinthians 1:24 but unto them that ARE called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us, AND called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

I think that's probably enough right. I don't need to drag this on too long. :)

Oh, yeah! And, the word foreknew there means an intimate knowledge if that helps. Like Adam KNEW Eve was said as an intimate knowledge. A little different in that case, but still the same idea.

Check this one out!

Galatians 4:8-9
8 Howbeit at that time, not knowing God, ye were in bondage to them that by nature are no gods:
9 but now that ye have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how turn ye back again to the weak and beggarly rudiments, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage over again?

I don't think anyone will argue that it's talking about an intimate knowledge.

One more time...

Romans 8
28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that ARE called according to his purpose.
29 For WHOM he foreknew, he ALSO foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and WHOM he foreordained, THEM HE ALSO CALLED: and WHOM HE CALLED, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I don't know if that'll do it for ya, but I sure hope so! Thanks for reading!
God blesses ya!
Marc
 
Those He foreknew- you are right He knows ahead of time He pre -( before hand) destines ( plans and purposes for a deliberate result) .
Rom 8:29
(ACV) Because whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be of similar nature of the form of his Son, in order for him to be the firstborn son among many brothers.
(ALT) Because whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the first-born among many brothers [and sisters].
(AUV-NT) For [that class of] persons whom God knew beforehand He also predetermined to become conformed to the [spiritual] likeness of His Son, so that He could be the firstborn One among [His] many brothers [i.e., so He could be the preeminent example to all His followers. See Heb. 2:11].
(ASV) For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
(BBE) Because those of whom he had knowledge before they came into existence, were marked out by him to be made like his Son, so that he might be the first among a band of brothers:
(Bishops) For those which he knewe before, he also dyd predestinate, that they shoulde be lyke fashioned vnto the shape of his sonne, that he myght be ye first begotten among many brethren.
(CEV) and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children.
(CENT) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Complete Apostles' Bible) Because whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.
 
After reading over 40 plus translations they all have this in common- predestines, foreordained, predetermined, preappoint.
 
Agreed. You can just look up the definition of the word. It means he did it before it happened. I guess that for most people it's not that God predestinated or foreordained or preappointed or whatever, it's WHY did he, or by what method of selecting or whatever. Right?
 
BL,
You understand I am not arguing but trying to understand within myself~

" Rom 8:29
(ACV) Because whom he foreknew, he also predestined... "

Why is 'WHOM' not speaking to every sinner, since our savior DID die for everyone?

He foreknew ALL of us, so aren't we ALL chosen to serve Him?

Some will not reply to the invitation, is how I am understanding this...

​
 
Gzuz the Man Child said:
Yes Violet, you are correct! The word Kaleo does mean invite! Like in the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22, he says that MANY are called and FEW are chosen. Where it is usually translated "bidden" or "called" or "invited" they are all the same word "Kaleo". Interesting huh? You can always just use one of those words instead of reading it with different words if it helps to make more sense of it.

Unfortunately I can't say that I agree with God having called ALL people, I believe that the calling it is speaking of refers to the calling to partake of Christ and bear fruit in the wilderness similar to the experience of the Israelites. We're all in our own personal wilderness. Just like where it says MANY are called, it doesn't say ALL does it, know what I mean? Also in it says in,

Romans 8:28
"And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that ARE called according to his purpose."

Notice, them that ARE called!
Here's some more just to confirm it for ya.

1 Corinthians 1:26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, ARE called:

Romans 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Corinthians 1:24 but unto them that ARE called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us, AND called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

I think that's probably enough right. I don't need to drag this on too long. :)

Oh, yeah! And, the word foreknew there means an intimate knowledge if that helps. Like Adam KNEW Eve was said as an intimate knowledge. A little different in that case, but still the same idea.

Check this one out!

Galatians 4:8-9
8 Howbeit at that time, not knowing God, ye were in bondage to them that by nature are no gods:
9 but now that ye have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how turn ye back again to the weak and beggarly rudiments, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage over again?

I don't think anyone will argue that it's talking about an intimate knowledge.

One more time...

Romans 8
28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that ARE called according to his purpose.
29 For WHOM he foreknew, he ALSO foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and WHOM he foreordained, THEM HE ALSO CALLED: and WHOM HE CALLED, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I don't know if that'll do it for ya, but I sure hope so! Thanks for reading!
God blesses ya!
Marc
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you wrote Mark. Pretty much all of these angles were covered previously and now it is up to the readers to believe or not. Thanks and blessings, Larry.
 
I don't know if you were talking to me or the other guy. I know that, that's why I'm tryin' to help out. That study was unbelievable for me, just such a blessing. So if I can help anyone else that's looking to see it, Praise God for that.

Edit...
Oh, I was responding to Violet here....
 
violet said:
BL,

You understand I am not arguing but trying to understand within myself~​

" Rom 8:29
(ACV) Because whom he foreknew, he also predestined... "​

Why is 'WHOM' not speaking to every sinner, since our savior DID die for everyone?​

He foreknew ALL of us, so aren't we ALL chosen to serve Him?​

Some will not reply to the invitation, is how I am understanding this...​
Click to expand...
My sister I would never want to argue with you as I love you in Jesus Name. While I did try to present this from a few different angles for clarities sake I meant no harm. If I seemed arguementitive I apologize now. Your brother in Christ Larry.
 
Gzuz the Man Child said:
Agreed. You can just look up the definition of the word. It means he did it before it happened. I guess that for most people it's not that God predestinated or foreordained or preappointed or whatever, it's WHY did he, or by what method of selecting or whatever. Right?
Click to expand...
Brother I think that falls back to the "those He foreknew" but that is only my opinion.
 
Thanks epistemaniac, I always appreciate your comment, as they are always enlightening.

I still maintain my position, though your text explains it better than my words :)
Sylvanus said:
There, it is understood by most, but not all, that the predestination, is not for each individual, but rather for a place of blessing destined to be filled by whoever happen to accept the calling of God.
Click to expand...
epistemaniac said:
Some have claimed that God predestines believers based on His foreknowledge of who will one day believe the gospel. The problem is that no text teaches this. The passage in Rom. 8:29 does not say, “Whom He foreknew would believe, these He predestined to salvation.” As noted earlier, the word “foreknew” refers to the people whom God foreknew, not something about those people (that they would one day believe). In addition, Eph. 1:11 makes clear that predestination is not based on something God sees in those persons. That is, it is not based on foreseen works, foreseen faith, foreseen perseverance, or anything else. It says predestination is based on God’s purposes, though it does not specify just what that might mean. On the other end of the spectrum, some have argued that God began by planning to save some, then reprobate others, to His own glory, and then set about to create the world in order to make that happen. Both of these “solutions” to the logical difficulty share something in common—they are philosophical solutions, not based on sound study of the text.
Click to expand...
My question remains though......

Also
Excessum said:
Why wouldn't He know what's going to happen in the future.
Click to expand...
Why did He have to test Abraham's heart, as He did to so many others?
Genesis 22:1 Genesis 22:12

:D
 
Boanerges said:
My sister I would never want to argue with you as I love you in Jesus Name. While I did try to present this from a few different angles for clarities sake I meant no harm. If I seemed arguementitive I apologize now. Your brother in Christ Larry.
Click to expand...

You didn't seem argumentative at all, Brother Larry!:)

I just was saying that I didn't want to come across that way to anyone~
:groupray:
​
 
Why does God test any of us? Not because He does not know the outcome that is certain.

Originally Posted by epistemaniac
Some have claimed that God predestines believers based on His foreknowledge of who will one day believe the gospel. The problem is that no text teaches this. The passage in Rom. 8:29 does not say, “Whom He foreknew would believe, these He predestined to salvation.” As noted earlier, the word “foreknew” refers to the people whom God foreknew, not something about those people (that they would one day believe). In addition, Eph. 1:11 makes clear that predestination is not based on something God sees in those persons. That is, it is not based on foreseen works, foreseen faith, foreseen perseverance, or anything else. It says predestination is based on God’s purposes, though it does not specify just what that might mean. On the other end of the spectrum, some have argued that God began by planning to save some, then reprobate others, to His own glory, and then set about to create the world in order to make that happen. Both of these “solutions” to the logical difficulty share something in common—they are philosophical solutions, not based on sound study of the text.

Indeed He works all thihngs according to His will Ken. Your suppostion would rule out free will entirely.
 
Ya know, I don't know what people on here believe about this totally, but I have one thing that came to mind that might help to get some people thinking and seeking the Lord on this.

Ask yourself these questions...

Did God choose me?!

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.

Philippians 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 15:16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

OR...

Did I choose GOD?!

Did GOD choose me, because He knew I would choose Him?

Why would God even have to choose me in that case?

Why does he even call it choosing?

Because I chose him, he chose me. That makes a lot of sense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top