Do you believe in predestination?

[epistemaniac]

Thanks epistemaniac, I always appreciate your comment, as they are always enlightening.

I still maintain my position, though your text explains it better than my words
My question remains though......

Also

Why did He have to test Abraham's heart, as He did to so many others?
Genesis 22:1 Genesis 22:12

Thanks for your kind words Sylvanus, I find reading your posts to be a pleasure as well.

Good questions Sylvanus.... I would say that the short answer to why it is that God tests us (or Abraham etc) is not for His sake, but rather for ours. I have read a great many books refuting the Open Theist position. If I could, allow me to refer you to a website where many of the Open Theists typical arguments are refuted, and you can read them for free. If you feel like buying some books on the subject, I can tell you what I have read and you can see for yourself why it is that I believe God infallibly and exhaustively knows the future.
BTW, you aren't suggesting that God had to test Abraham because God just wasn't sure how Abraham would respond, are you? You are not saying that God doesn't know the future, are you? Anyways... the site I was speaking of... first... the entire book showing why Open Theism, and its belief that God doesn't perfectly know the future is outside the bounds of orthodox Christian belief is free in it's entirety at http://www.desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bbb/books_bbb.pdf
This book is for sale in Christian book stores right now and the fact that Piper is offering it for free just speaks volumes to his generosity and desire to teach the flock the truth, whether they can afford nearly 20 bucks on a book or not. I just love Piper's writings on all sorts of subjects, and I would commend them to you... you might want to grab all the books he is currently offering for free in adobe reader format while you can, who knows when they might be taken off the site.

Also, see articles on the subject of God's foreknowledge here: http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByTopic/107/
In particular, re Abraham, Piper says

"#7 The Testing of Abraham's Fear of God

Genesis 22:9-12

Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."​

Observations:

1. Boyd says that God did not know if Abraham would remain faithful and that the words "now I know" are disingenuous if this were not so. The test would be a charade if God already knew the outcome.
2. There is another way to think about God's knowing here. If God knows what will come to pass, does that mean that all testings in history are pointless? I don't think so. God has not created the world just to be known in terms of what would be if tests were given. He created the world to be actualized in history. That is, he wills not just to foreknow, but to know by observation and experience. That is the point of creating a real world, rather than just knowing one that might be. Therefore, may not God truly know what Abraham is going to do, and yet want to externalize that in a test that enables him to know it by observation, not just prognostication? "Now I know," thus may be, "Now I see . . . now I experience by observation of your real action."
3. A problem with Boyd's view is that God cannot really be sure it is true when he says, "Now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son." The knife had not been put into the boy's chest and this is the moment when the will may well rebel and say "No!" We have seen from Jeremiah 3:7 how "mistaken" God's predictions can be on Boyd's way of seeing things. God cannot be sure that Abraham would have killed his son, because the volition had not yet been created for God to know. But perhaps this is not significant, since, even if Abraham had killed his son, God could still not be sure Abraham would not in the next moment rebel against the God that had forced him into such a test."

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Hee Hee
That makes two of us then

The way I see it is like that, seeing it illustratively:
A business has decided to create a new departement.
Places have to be filled, but they don't know yet who will fill the posts.

The adoption to 'son'ship had already been decided and pre-destined by God long ago. The 'us' in the scripture quoted, as I see it, is not neccessarely about individuals, but about a group of people, namely those Christians who have testified unto death. I believe Scripture support that.

Although I do not really wish to distract from the subject at hand, I personally do not believe in OSAS.

But Romans 9 seems to be speakng of very particular individuals, does it not?
Rom 9:10-13 ESV+ And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, (11) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- (12) she was told, "The older will serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Indeed He works all thihngs according to His will Ken. Your suppostion would rule out free will entirely.

Not at all Boanerges.... I believe in "free will", but I believe in it as understood, in my humble opinion, as the Scripture describes the will. And the Scripture speaks of a will in bondage to sin. Man's will is free, but free in the sense that it is a sinful human being that engages the will to choose this or that thing. I believe the bible speaks of sinful man as being unable to please God, that man is, as the bible says, by nature a child of wrath. And humans, of their own accord, will never choose the things of God for those who are of the flesh cannot please God, and the Bible says specifically it is because they are unable to, ie that man does not possess the ability to please God. Therefore, if man does choose God, it is only because God chooses him or her first. You can see where I am coming from in this area if you would take the time to read Jonathan Edwards awesome work entitled "On The Freedom Of The Will" and can be read for free at http://members.aol.com/wrksofedwards/FreedomofWill.pdf
or... you could read what Martin Luther considered to be his most important work out of all his writings, namely the book "The Bondage Of The Will", which is also available for free online at http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html


blessings,
Ken

 

[Kevin]

I wish, I had seen this thread from the beginning, but unfortunately I have only come across it now. Instead of re-hashing all that has been discussed, I just want to say how pleased I am that people on this thread are prepared to debate and discuss hot issues without taking a stance of " I am right you are wrong" but everybody is wanting to learn more about God and seek His truth.

I used to believe that we as people have a free will, after all I had been taught this all my life. I still struggle to come to grips with the fact that we are actually Gods possesions and we where created for His Glory not our own. Only in complete surrender of self to God can I understand a little bit about free will and the choices I make in life.

Jesus surrendered completely to Gods will on the cross.

I have come to the conclusion in my walk with God that to believe I have freedom to make my life my own, is actually a sin. To surrender my will to God and to obey His will is what God desires, and will ultimately bring glory to Him.

My only suggestion is to bring this topic before God in your prayer time and really ask God to reveal what He wants is the answer to this topic.

May God bless you as you seek Him.

 

[Sylvanus]

I will come back Ken
Thank you for your replies