Do you believe in predestination?

The belief of predestination has arisen from one particular verse:
Ephesians 1:4-12

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated (proorizō) us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated (proorizō) according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

There, it is understood by most, but not all, that the predestination, is not for each individual, but rather for a place of blessing destined to be filled by whoever happen to accept the calling of God.

Thank you.
I too am a student learning here but I am wondering what steps one must take to arrive at this ( highlighted)conclusion?
No harm intended I just can't seem to put that togeather- perhaps you can shed some light on it SYLV?
 
My testimony.

http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=mysojourn-marc

When I first had my heart turned to the Lord Jesus, I was in jail. I didn't know more than a few words of the Bible. But from day one, I knew I had been chosen by God. I was so grateful and just always said it to him how I was thankful for his choosing me. I knew it, but I didn't understand it. I would always ask him, why did you choose me, I'm nothing. I'm a nobody, I used to break into churches, I robbed your people, and now you want me?! I never understood until one day,

1 Corinthians 1
26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;

Just one more way I can praise God for the kindness (grace) he showed me, a nobody, to do with whatever he wishes. I'm a vessel of God's mercy (Rom9:23) I hope to be a vessel of honor (Rom9:21) for our Lord, as I hope you all are too.
 
Hee Hee
That makes two of us then :D

The way I see it is like that, seeing it illustratively:
A business has decided to create a new departement.
Places have to be filled, but they don't know yet who will fill the posts.

The adoption to 'son'ship had already been decided and pre-destined by God long ago. The 'us' in the scripture quoted, as I see it, is not neccessarely about individuals, but about a group of people, namely those Christians who have testified unto death. I believe Scripture support that.

Although I do not really wish to distract from the subject at hand, I personally do not believe in OSAS.
 
This issue may be aliitle more complex than it appears on the surface

Ken you stated:
God foreknew persons, not, incidentally, something about those persons, i.e., that they would believe; rather He foreknew the persons themselves. The ones He foreknew are the same ones He predestined, and the same ones He called, and the same ones He justified, and the same ones He glorified. There is no break in the link at any point. That is, there is no possibility that someone initially predestined would fail to be finally glorified.

I do not see how that precludes God from knowing the heart and choices of each indiviual beforehand.

Again you stated:
“In Him we were also made His inheritance, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will.” Here Paul links believers’ predestination with their being adopted children (hence, the inheritance), and he notes again that this election was done according to God’s own purposes, who does everything in accordance with His own will.
I still do not see that precluding knowledge of choice as the Father Himself wills that all would come to salvation 2Pe 3:9 .

And again:Some have claimed that God predestines believers based on His foreknowledge of who will one day believe the gospel. The problem is that no text teaches this.

I see no scriptural proof that God does not do so and I have no trouble in seeing a complimentary relationship with the foreknowledge of an all seeing ,all knowing omniscient God knowing our final choices and based on that predestinate, call,justify and glorify.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Those He did foreknow He did call, He did justify, He did glorify and I cannot see the point of taken the foreknowledge out of the equation.
Other than that I am in agreement with what you said.
 
Ya know, I don't know what people on here believe about this totally, but I have one thing that came to mind that might help to get some people thinking and seeking the Lord on this.

Ask yourself these questions...

Did God choose me?!

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.

Philippians 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 15:16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

OR...

Did I choose GOD?!

Did GOD choose me, because He knew I would choose Him?

Why would God even have to choose me in that case?

Why does he even call it choosing?

Because I chose him, he chose me. That makes a lot of sense.

Gets confusing doesn't it. I am a firm believer in all the scripture you quoted but I also know the scripture tells us to choose on multiple occasions.
 
Absolutely it does. I'm not saying that people don't make choices, that would be silly. What seems clear to me though, is that God most definitely puts it in you to be able to do that. I can give MANY, many references if you'd like. But, first I'd just suggest that you read the link I posted earlier as I believe it will bless you and will help you to at least see where I'm coming from. Then if you have anything you'd like to add or share with me about it, that would be great! Thanks, Marc

Here's the link again.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1995/1580_Are_There_Two_Wills_in_God/
 
The way that I have always understood it is the same as Sylvanus is saying it. Like his business example.(I think. I could be misunderstanding or reading things wrong. :eek:)

Yes, God has a will for us and a plan. Yes, he gifts us each accordingly and gives us personalities, strengths, weaknesses, etc. But we still have free will and a choice to do what we choose. He is all knowing and knows what the outcome will be for every choice we make. If we do not do what is in his plan for us, then another will be called, or the outcome will come about in an entirely different manner. For example (and this is a big example not meant to cause any debate or problems).... but for example, imagine if young Hitler had continued to pursue his dream of becoming an artist instead of going into politics. Do you think that the nation of Israel would never have eventually came about? (Silly rhetorical question.) God would have chosen another individual in the place of Hitler, or else he would have selected another means to obtain the desired ends. He knows all the outcomes to all the choices we make.

On a smaller scale, He knows whether I will ever get around to doing my homework tonight or even if I will put it off another day. And he knows what outcome will come from both decisions, even though he already knows which one I will make. But for me, in this time and place, the decision is up to me.

From my understanding of predestination, in the sense that it is often used in church teachings, it is different in what I wrote in that it asserts that we have already been destined to do a certain thing and therefore it will happen..... for example, our destiny is shaped before birth, and all the choices we make along the way will still bring us to that same point because we are destined to a certain thing.

Maybe my understanding of predestination is wrong? I looked up a dozen or so websites and they all confirmed what I had previously been taught about the teaching of predestination.

I am not saying that the Bible is wrong in using the term "predestination", or that the word of God is wrong in any way. We do all interpret the Bible differently. I think it is wrong to say that for someone to be a Christian then they must agree with predestination...... especially because it is a topic that is so hotly debated even among scholars, and seems to have little agreement upon. If those who are the most knowledgeable and learned cannot agree on it, then how are we to judge one another based upon their belief on the topic? I find it fascinating to read the view points of others on various topics and often I learn a great deal and gain wonderful insight.

I am I made some sense. Often I don't type well what I mean.
 
Absolutely it does. I'm not saying that people don't make choices, that would be silly. What seems clear to me though, is that God most definitely puts it in you to be able to do that. I can give MANY, many references if you'd like. But, first I'd just suggest that you read the link I posted earlier as I believe it will bless you and will help you to at least see where I'm coming from. Then if you have anything you'd like to add or share with me about it, that would be great! Thanks, Marc
I read it earlier Mark thanks. Here's the link again.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1995/1580_Are_There_Two_Wills_in_God/
I read it earlier Mark thanks. I am familiar with those doctrines and the different views offered on the will of God.
 
In truth scripture does not seem to indicate a generic destination but is specific in detail.

It is obvious we can choose:
Josh 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
(from New International Version)


Scripture indicates God moves a king's heart according to His plans yet He has us pray for said rulers- After a careful review it would seem as though predestination and free will are quite intertwined and interconnected. And yep He foreknew me, He predestined me, He justified me and He glorified me in Christ I have all these things.​
 
Here are a few commonly heald views on the subject

Predestination and omniscience source wikipedia

Discussion of predestination usually involves consideration of whether God is omniscient, or eternal or atemporal (free from limitations of time or even causality). In terms of these ideas, God may see the past, present, and future, so that God effectively knows the future. If God in some sense knows ahead of time what will happen, then events in the universe are effectively predetermined from God's point of view. This is a form of determinism but not predestination since the latter term implies that God has actually determined (rather than simply saw) in advance the destiny of creatures.
Within Christendom, there is considerable disagreement about God's role in setting ultimate destinies (that is, eternal life or eternal destruction). Christians who follow teachers such as St. Augustine and John Calvin generally accept that God does decide the eternal destinations of each person, so that their future actions or beliefs follow according to God's choice. A contrasting Christian view maintains that God is completely sovereign over all things but that he chose to give each individual free will, which each person can exercise to accept or reject God's offer of salvation and hence God's actions and determinations follow according to man's choice.
Judaism may accept the possibility that God is atemporal; some forms of Jewish theology teach this virtually as a principle of faith, while other forms of Judaism do not. Jews may use the term omniscience, or preordination as a corollary of omniscience, but normally reject the idea of predestination as being incompatible with the free will and responsibility of moral agents, and it therefore has no place in their religion.
Islam traditionally has strong views of predestination similar to some found in Christianity. In Islam, Allah both knows and ordains whatever comes to pass. Muslims believe that God is literally atemporal, eternal and omniscient.
In philosophy, the relation between foreknowledge and predestination is a central part of Newcomb's paradox.

[edit] Predestination in Christianity

Christians understand the doctrine of predestination in terms of God's work of salvation in the world. The doctrine is a tension between the divine perspective, in which God saves those whom he chooses from eternity apart from human action, and the human perspective, in which each person is responsible for his or her choice to accept or reject God. The views on predestination within Christianity vary somewhat in emphasis on one of these two perspectives.
In terms of ultimates, with God's decision to create as the ultimate beginning, and the ultimate outcome, a belief system has a doctrine of predestination if it teaches:
  1. God's decision, assignment or declaration concerning the lot of people is conceived as occurring in some sense prior to the outcome, and
  2. the decision is fully predictive of the outcome, and not merely probable.
There are numerous ways to describe the spectrum of beliefs concerning predestination in Christian thinking. To some extent, this spectrum has analogies in other monotheistic religions, although in other religions the term predestination may not be used. For example, teaching on predestination may vary in terms of three considerations.
  1. Is God's predetermining decision based solely on a knowledge of His own will, or does it also include a knowledge of whatever will happen?
  2. How particular is God's prior decision: is it concerned with particular persons and events, or is it limited to broad categories of people and things?
  3. How free is God in effecting His part in the eventual outcome? Is God bound or limited by conditions external to his own will, willingly or not, in order that what has been determined will come to pass?
Furthermore, the same sort of considerations apply to the freedom of man's will.
  1. Assuming that an individual had no choice in who, when and where to come into being: How are the choices of existence determined by what he is?
  2. Assuming that not all possible choices are available to him: How capable is the individual to desire all choices available, in order to choose from among them?
  3. How capable is an individual to put into effect what he desires?
 
Various views on Christian predestination
There is a resounding consistency in the early church fathers regarding the freedom of human choices. This polemic was crucial in the Christian confrontation with Cynicism and some of the chief forms of Gnosticism, such as Manichaeism, which taught that man is by nature flawed and therefore not responsible for evil in himself or in the world. At the same time, belief in a sovereign and predestinating God was held without clear attempt to reconcile these ideas with one another. That this was an uneasy tension eventually became obvious with the confrontation between Augustine of Hippo and Pelagius culminating in condemnation of Pelagianism (as interpreted by Augustine) in 417. The British monk Pelagius denied Augustine's view of "predestination" in order to affirm that salvation is achieved by an act of free will.
Leading to this controversy, Augustine's own early writings clearly affirmed that God's predestinating grace was granted on the basis of his foreknowledge of the human desire to pursue salvation. After 396, however, his understanding began to turn increasingly toward the necessity of God granting this grace in order for the desire for salvation to be awakened. Thus his thoughts took a more determinist direction, especially as Augustine wrestled with the implications of the writings of the Apostle Paul.
One of Augustine's motivating concerns was the question of truth, and his solution to the problem of salvation was not to deny that man has freedom to choose, but to assert that on account of Original Sin, human free choice is necessarily subject to error and enslaved to sin (liberum arbitrium captivatum). The individual does not lack knowledge of what God's will is and knows it to be good, but is deprived of the ability to desire to do God's will, and subsequently freely chooses what is desired, which is sin. The grace of God cures this disease, which has as its main symptom the absence of any desire to be cured, setting the person free to choose God's will (liberum arbitrium liberatum). God's grace acts first on the human heart, to awaken the desire to do His will, and cooperates with the individual in a process of granting prayers for the greater desire and ability to choose His will and to do it, according to Augustine's later thought on the issues.
Augustine's formulation is neither complete nor universally accepted by Christians. In a real sense, all ideas of predestination are further developments of this same struggle to reconcile the idea of free will with the idea of predestinating grace, both of which are affirmed in Scripture and throughout Christian tradition. Especially in Western Christianity, the history of this development is traced through Augustine.

[edit] Conditional predestination

Conditional Predestination, or more commonly referred to as conditional election, is a theological stance stemming from the writings and teachings of Jacobus Arminius, after whom Arminianism is named. Arminius studied under the staunch Reformed scholar Theodore Beza, whose views of election, Arminius eventually argued, could not reconcile freedom with moral responsibility.
Arminius used a philosophy called Molinism (named for the philosopher, Luis de Molina) that attempted to reconcile freedom with God's omniscience. They both saw human freedom in terms of the Libertarian philosophy: man's choice is not decided by God's choice, thus God's choice is "conditional", depending on what man chooses. Arminius saw God "looking down the corridors of time" to see the free choices of man, and choosing those who will respond in faith and love to God's love and promises, revealed in Jesus.
Arminianism sees the choice of Christ as an impossibility, apart from God's grace; and the freedom to choose is given to all, because God's prevenient grace is universal (given to everyone). Therefore, God predestines on the basis of foreknowledge of how some will respond to his universal love ("conditional"). In contrast, Calvinism views universal grace as resistible and not sufficient for leading to salvation--or denies universal grace altogether--and instead supposes grace that leads to salvation to be particular and irresistible, given to some but not to others on the basis of God's predestinating choice ("unconditional"). This is also known as "double-predestination."

[edit] Temporal predestination

Temporal predestination is the view that God only determines temporal matters, and not eternal ones. This Christian view is analogous to the traditional Jewish view, which distinguishes between preordination and predestination. Temporal matters are pre-ordained by God, but eternal matters, being supra-temporal, are subject to absolute freedom of choice. J. Kenneth Grider
 
[edit] Infralapsarianism

Infralapsarianism (also called sublapsarianism) holds that predestination logically coincides with the preordination of Man's fall into sin. That is, God predestined sinful men for salvation. Therefore according to this view, God is the "ultimate cause", but not the "proximate source" or "author" of sin. Infralapsarians often emphasize a difference between God's decree (which is inviolable and inscrutable), and his revealed will (against which man is disobedient). Proponents also typically emphasize the grace and mercy of God toward all men, although teaching also that only some are predestined for salvation.
In common English parlance, the doctrine of predestination often has particular reference to the doctrines of Calvinism. The version of predestination espoused by John Calvin, after whom Calvinism is named, is sometimes referred to as "double predestination" because in it God predestines some people for salvation (i.e. Unconditional election) and some for condemnation (i.e. Reprobation). Calvin himself defines predestination as "the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. Not all are created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."[1].
On the spectrum of beliefs concerning predestination, Calvinism is the strongest form among Christians. It teaches that God's predestinating decision is based on the knowledge of His own will rather than foreknowledge, concerning every particular person and event; and, God continually acts with entire freedom, in order to bring about his will in completeness, but in such a way that the freedom of the creature is not violated, "but rather, established"[2]
Calvinists who hold the infralapsarian view of predestination usually prefer that term to "sublapsarianism," perhaps with the intent of blocking the inference that they believe predestination is on the basis of foreknowledge (sublapsarian meaning, assuming the fall into sin).[3] The different terminology has the benefit of distinguishing the Calvinist double predestination version of infralapsarianism, from Lutheranism's view that predestination is a mystery, which forbids the unprofitable intrusion of prying minds.
Calvinists seek never to divide predestination in a mathematical way. Their doctrine is uninterested, in the abstract, in questions of "how much" either God or man is responsible for a particular destiny. Questions of "how much" will become hopelessly entangled in paradox, Calvinists teach, regardless of the view of predestination adopted. Instead, Calvinism divides the issues of predestination according to two kinds of being, knowledge, and will, distinguishing that which is divine from that which is human. Therefore, it is not so much an issue of quantity, but of distinct roles or modes of being. God is not a creature nor the creature God in knowledge, will, freedom, ability, responsibility, or anything else. Calvinists will often attribute salvation entirely to God; and yet they will also assert that it is man's responsibility to pursue obedience. As the archetypical illustration of this idea, they believe Jesus in his words and work humanly fulfilled all that he as part of the Trinity had determined from the Father should be done. What he did humanly is distinguishable, but not separate, from what he did divinely.
 
Supralapsarianism
Supralapsarianism is the doctrine that God's decree of predestination for salvation and reprobation logically precedes his preordination of Man's fall into sin. That is, God decided to save, and to damn; he then determined that the fall of Man into sin would accomplish his purpose. It is a matter of controversy whether or not Calvin himself held this view.

[edit] Predestination in the Bible

Some Biblical verses often used as sources for Christian beliefs in predestination are below.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, [...]" (Eph. 1:3-5, NASB) "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Rom. 8:28-30, NASB) "[...] but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; [...]" (1Co. 2:7, NASB) "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Act. 4:27-28, NASB) "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Eph. 2:4-9, NASB) "[...] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, [...]" (2Ti. 1:9, NASB) Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psa. 139:16, NASB)
 
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. [verse 17 omitted] So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." (Rom. 9:16-18, NASB)
[edit] Jewish views

Isaiah 45:7
see also Free will In Jewish thought Generally speaking Reform Judaism has no strong doctrine of predestination. The idea that God is omnipotent and omniscient didn't formally exist in Judaism during the Biblical era, but rather was a later development due to the influence of neo-Platonic and neo-Aristotelian philosophy. Many modern Jewish thinkers in the 20th century have resolved the dialectical tension by holding that God is simply not omnipotent, in the commonly used sense of that word. These thinkers are primarily not Orthodox Jews. Orthodox Jewish rabbis generally affirm that God must be viewed as omnipotent, but they have varying definitions of what the word omnipotent means. Thus one finds that some Modern Orthodox theologians have views that are essentially the same as non-Orthodox theologians, but they use different terminology. See the entry on omnipotence for a discussion of how people use this word in different ways.
One noted Jewish philosopher, Hasdai Crescas, resolved this dialectical tension by taking the position that free-will doesn't exist. Hence all of a person's actions are pre-determined by the moment of their birth, and thus their judgement in the eyes of God (so to speak) is effectively pre-ordained. However in this scheme this is not a result of God's predetermining one's fate, but rather from the view that the universe is deterministic. Crescas's views on this topic were rejected by Judaism at large. In later centuries this idea independently developed among some in the Chabad (Lubavitch) sect of Hasidic Judaism. Many individuals within Chabad take this view seriously, and hence effectively deny the existence of free will.
However, many Chabad (Lubavitch) Jews attempt to hold both views. They affirm as infallible their rebbe's teachings that God knows and controls the fate of all, yet at the same time affirm the classical Jewish belief in free-will (i.e. no such thing as determinism). The inherent contradiction between the two results in their belief that such contradictions are only "apparent", due to man's inherent lack of ability to understand greater truths and due to the fact that Creator and Created exist in different realities.
One does not have to be a Chabad Hassid to believe in this, however. It is enough to read the statement in Pirkei Avot: "Everything is predetermined but freedom of will is given." The same idea is strongly repeated by Rambam (Mishneh Torah, Laws of Repentance, Chapter 5).
Many other Jews (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and secular) affirm that since free-will exists, then by definition one's fate is not preordained. It is held as a tenet of faith that whether God is omniscient or not, nothing interferes with mankind's free will. Some Jewish theologians, both during the medieval era and today, have attempted to formulate a philosophy in which free will is preserved, while also affirming that God has knowledge of what decisions people will make in the future. Whether or not these two ideas are mutually compatible, or whether there is a contradiction between the two, is still a matter of great study and interest in philosophy today.
 
If I may clear my thoughts too boanerges, since you seem attached to Romans 8:29-30

These are the verses I have in mind:
Matthew 22:14 Matthew 20:16
Many be called but few chosen.

There seem to be a distinction between those called and those chosen.
The call is like a seed being planted afresh, while the choosing is when the seed has matured to the point of giving fruit, which are then those chosen. (John 15:8).
We know who the called ones are, since they fill the Earth, and indeed this forum, but know not the chosen yet, since they are such after they be alive (Rom 8:23)
Paul himself didn't know if he had been chosen, for he expressed in one place some level of uncertainty (1 Corinthians 4:4), and he himself strived to be such (1 Corinthians 9:24-27), and although we ourselves may know we are called, how do we know we are chosen? (Romans 8:19), have we yet reached our goal? (Romans 8:17b)

Now, it is the hope of every Christian to be chosen, and what is more, it is on this very hope that we build our faith, by which we live and die and are chosen.
In my understanding, Paul assumes that the Christians he addresses himself to, will be chosen, speaking in a form of future past, for although only SOME ARE chosen, though not all, it is best to assume that they all are, and these few, not only called (past) but chosen (future) were pre-destined to be counted for salvation.

Please let me know if I have misquoted. I have spoken in a hurry
 
My thoughts on the subject are this :that Romans 8:29-30 are not the called but the chosen.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
It is quite obvious ( at least in my poor brain- LOL) that these people were chosen to be brought to fruition in Christ.
 
I don't.
I believe God gave us a choice; free will.
I do believe he knows our destiny because he knows the future but...
I believe the future he knows is the one he allowed us to choose.


According to your definition of free will, God seems a bit impotent. He's sitting in heaven "looking down on us." It reminds me of the deism of Thomas Jefferson - Basically, God created the world, and let it go--that is, a detached God.

The only issue is, it's not biblical. "In Him we live and move and have our beings" -The Apostle Paul

In Romans Paul speaks clearly about the predestination of the saints.

Read you bible
icon7.gif
 
Sylvanus, I really do not see 1 Cor. 4:4 as teaching that Paul was unsure of his salvation. If he was, how could he write 2Ti 1:3 NASB1988 I thank God, whom I serve with a clear conscience the way my forefathers did, as I constantly remember you in my prayers night and day,"
If he served God with a clear conscience, he must have thought that he was saved don't ya think?

Just a few verses later Paul speaks of himself as "being saved", ie in the past tense:
2Ti 1:8-9 NASB1988 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, (9) who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
If Paul was not sure he was saved, how could he speak of himself as saved, saved not according to works, but according to God's grace, and further, saved with certainty in eternity past?

And, for now, just one more from this very small passage:
2Ti 1:12 NASB1988 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."
Paul sounds very confident of his salvation here, does he not?

blessings,
Ken
 
Back
Top