Enduring To The End To Be Saved?

Jul 25, 2012
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I appreciate your continuance in this matter as I understand your reasoning, but I need to redirect you back to your premise. Although Jesus does go on to testify of the coming promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit starting in verse 15, that was not all He was talking about from the onset of that chapter, so you need to reconsider that application.

#1) Jesus speaks of going to a place to prepare them a place which is in His Father's house.

#2) Jesus speaks of coming to them again to receive us unto Himself to that place so that where He is now, so will we be: which is New Jerusalem which will come down from heaven after the great tribulation.

Now although you have gone to great lengths in making the case that He was talking about the Holy Spirit, Jesus was testifying to where He is now that He will come to receive us so that where He is now, so will we be.

A traditional Jewish marriage ceremony, the newly married couple has the bridegroom leaving the bride for a time to prepare a place for her, and when the new home is ready, he comes to take her there.

We are married to Christ, and so this preparation to come to the wedding feast of the King is paramount for a believer to be His disciples by leaning on Him in being our Good Shepherd in helping us to continue in His words to be chosen from the many that are called to attend. That is why those with His seal are exhorted to depart from iniquity now so as to avoid being "destroyed" from being that vessel unto honour in His House into becoming that vessel unto dishonour in His House by being left behind to be cast into the bed of teh coming great tribulation.

Of this issue, we both agree of the necessity for a believer to trust Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd to help them to continue to abide in Him and His words, and not just rest in Him as their Saviour for eternal life.

You may not see it yet, but the warnings Jesus keeps giving to believers cannot be applied to the warning given for the great tribulation. These two seperate kinds of warnings leads to two different judgments, and thus two different harvests. There is a need to watch and be ready now, because He can come at any moment... NOW.

Sure, He can come now...and the saints will be with Him when He does! You are still here( at least I am assuming that you are not sitting in heaven typing) So if He returns at this moment...as you say He could, how will you be coming with Him? There is only one way, one you die as a saint and are in the first resurrection, or are found worthy to stand before Him when He returns....Jesus isn't coming back twice . He is coming back once....to reign from Jerusalem. He comes on clouds remember and ALL eyes will see Him remember...It isn't going to be a secret rapture.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

God Bless...

T/C
 
Oct 8, 2012
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Enow said:

That seems to be the ground which we disagree on that we agree on.

"Since it is on God to cause the increase, I can only hope He will help you to see what I see. New Jerusalem coming down from heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband: and that bride is the church of Christ, the raptured saints. It was not to receive the bride, but Jew Jerusalem had already received the bride as it was prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. If we remember this promise:"
The part in red is what I want to focus on...Let's see what Revelation says about the bride and the saints:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Which one of those are you going to be?
That description fits only those coming out of the great tribulation. Read it again. Those are souls that went through that specific time.

And how about all of those who have already been killed for His namesake so that the gospel could survive for you and I to believe in Him. Your arrogance is appalling.
Dial it back a bit, brother. There is no need for that. Since Matthew 13:33 tells me that the rapture is hid because there are three harvests that makes up the whole of the Kingdom of God, believing or not believing in the rapture will not be held against believers since it is about being found abiding in Him as His disciples that is what is important.

When you are killed for His name then call yourself a saint.
You and I are saints now by what Jesus has done. Don't forget that.

There is NOTHING in that scripture that says the 'saints' are whisked away from tribulation:
I had given you references before so either you think they do not apply or you are looking for an answer to them.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

The other other part to this...is the mark of the beast. Those who are in the marriage with Him overcame the mark of the beast and the number of His name...which means it is out right now and you have to overcome it if you are going to be in the marriage and reign with Him.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now let's look at the harvest and what happens to those in the harvest:

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

It appears to me...and maybe I am 'misinterpreting' this, but it sure looks like they DIE to me...it doesn't say they are alive and are raptured...

Your suggestion that the saints are 'raptured' is an insult. What about the thousands who have been killed in the last two thousand years for Him. and how about those around the world right now who are truly being persecuted, beaten and killed for His sake? What are you doing for the kingdom of Heaven? What makes you a saint...

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

The arrogance of the rapture crowd is getting ridiculous. The rapture folks are the lukewarm who are going to be refused because they have not picked up their cross. They will not be let into the gate when He brings it down out of Heaven.They will not be worthy:

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

That word 'worthy' means:

G514
ἄξιος
axios
ax'-ee-os
deserving, comparable or suitable (as if drawing praise): - due reward, meet, [un-] worthy.

G2661
καταξιόω
kataxioō
kat-ax-ee-o'-o
to deem entirely deserving: - (ac-) count worthy.

Sorry, but a rapture is not going to happen...To believe in Him means that He has come into your heart and made you a new creature. And that you have made yourself a living sacrifice for Him. I am not saying you have to be killed to enter the gate, but you better be in Grace...the power of the Holy Spirit having your light shining brightly when He returns. Those who have died for Him and gave up ALL are saints...they will be returning to rule with Him. The rest of us are considered 'fellowcitizens' with them

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

T/C
Are we toting suffering as a means of finishing by the flesh what was begun with the Spirit?

Here is the faith in Jesus Christ as He is the One that has made us worthy.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

That's how you and I are made and kept worthy by. To imply suffering as a means to make oneself worthy can lead to pride which comes before the fall.

Now, I am not saying that we are not to suffer: believers suffer when they cease from sin.

1 Peter 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

But looking for justification by suffering as if that is what makes you a saint would be akin to finishing by the flesh what was begun with the Spirit. That would be the same as voiding faith and coming short of that rest in Jesus.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.....9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Whenever Jesus says that the first shall be last and the last shall be first, that means every disciple receives the same reward regardless of how much one suffers or not, because He is the One that has made us worthy and keeps us worthy, and all that is required from us is to believe Him, thus keeping the faith which is the good fight since He is the author and finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight and sin to run that race to attend the Supper.

I shall address the Revelations references in the next post if the Lord is willing.
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Enow...You said:

"That description fits only those coming out of the great tribulation. Read it again. Those are souls that went through that specific time."

Doesn't matter,,,the point is that is the group that reigns with Him. If you expect to reign with Him you will have to be in one of those groups period.

T/C

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



As to the other statement:

"Are we toting suffering as a means of finishing by the flesh what was begun with the Spirit?"

"But looking for justification by suffering as if that is what makes you a saint would be akin to finishing by the flesh what was begun with the Spirit. That would be the same as voiding faith and coming short of that rest in Jesus."

First, the apostles and disciples back then as many are still now are suffering in the flesh. They did and do it because the power of God resting within them...the Holy Spirit- Grace is why they can do so.

Your suffering in the flesh may come from denying your flesh. Which if you walk in the spirit you will do:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

So I guess you can look at it how you want to...

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

The people suffering in the world outside of the US can cling to these scriptures knowing that no matter what happens, Christ will always remain in them, no matter what they may be going through in the world.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


The going through tribulation is how we receive the kingdom within us.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Unless you are professing Him with your lips but your heart is far from Him...and you havent truly picked up your cross and followed Him...

Remember this group:


Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


These are the saints:

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?


Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


No matter how you look at it, you are going to have tribulation..and greater tribulation for those who live and reign with Him as saints who have been killed or overcome the beast.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


God Bless,

T/C
 
Oct 8, 2012
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There is NOTHING in that scripture that says the 'saints' are whisked away from tribulation:

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

The other other part to this...is the mark of the beast. Those who are in the marriage with Him overcame the mark of the beast and the number of His name...which means it is out right now and you have to overcome it if you are going to be in the marriage and reign with Him.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now let's look at the harvest and what happens to those in the harvest:

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

It appears to me...and maybe I am 'misinterpreting' this, but it sure looks like they DIE to me...it doesn't say they are alive and are raptured...
Let's go back a bit in Revelation 14th chapter.

Revelation 14:1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Just because these firstfruits were mentioned, does not mean there were no others since the OT saints has been mentioned and those that are His disciples will be part of the firstfruits: ( again, the first shall be last and the last shall be first because no flesh shall glory in His presence)

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

That's the point about Matthew 13:33 having three harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of God: pre trib harvest: post trib harvest and the end of the milleniel reign of Christ thereabout after the final defeat of Satan harvest. Unfortunately, only the first harvest comes with the Marriage Supper.

Continuing from the point about the firstfruits and then ....

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Now consider those that die are part of that second harvest as described following for not being found abiding in Him and thus incurring His wrath below. This being after the gospel message was preached everywhere and thus the fall of Babylon before giving that warning of the mark of the beast to every one after that, setting the hour of temptation that shall try all on the earth, thus that sickle are the saints that die in that hour that Babylon has fallen and after that.

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

So there is a harvest before the great tribulation: they were the redeemed from the earth: the firstfruits as dwelling in Heaven rejoicing.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The firstfruits will rejoice in Heaven while the hour of temptation begins when the accuser of our brethren has been cast down from Heaven when the door to the Marriage Supper will be closed.
 
Oct 8, 2012
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The people suffering in the world outside of the US can cling to these scriptures knowing that no matter what happens, Christ will always remain in them, no matter what they may be going through in the world.
Same goes for those wayward saints left behind from the pre trib rapture event.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The going through tribulation is how we receive the kingdom within us.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.[/quote]

Hate to break it to you, brother, but we are going through tribulations now. It is not the great tribulation, but the falling away from the faith which has been prophesied and is here now and thus the good fight is keeping the faith: it may not be about resisting taking the mark of the beast to survive in a post WWIII great tribulation, but it is a perilous times we are living in.... now.

Keeping the faith by His help and by His grace is not small potatoes on His part in keeping us from falling and presenting us faultess to His glory and the glory of God the Father.

2 Timothy 2:1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring....28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

That applies to all movements of the "Spirit" from slain in the "Spirit" to the "holy laughter" movement.

2 Timothy 3:1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was. 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

This applies to the Billy Graham Crusade in making commitments to follow Christ and the Promise Keepers' program as this is making and keeping a yoke of bondage by the flesh of an evil boast about doing good tomorrow:

James 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:.....9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Believers cannot preach about themselves nor of their commitments and promises or else be found as false witnesses:

Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.....
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? ....

Proverbs 25:27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory.

John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The Lord had to set me free from my commitments, promises, and covenant with my mouth to rest in His Covenant and all His promises to me that He will do it and all that is required from me is to believe Him to do His work in me.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So that is why keeping the faith is the good fight as we are living in perilous times NOW.
 
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You said "Hate to break it to you, brother, but we are going through tribulations now".


AMEN, absolutely couldn't agree more. We are... And through the power of Grace we will overcome whatever Satan throws at us. Those who are not in the flesh any more will most certainly not boast of our flesh. Those who are in the spirit certainly will... The freedom that Grace gives is such that we can't help from boasting..but our boasting is of Him not ourselves. The word of God burns in our hearts and that is something to be joyous about and shout out to the world! Nice we agree on at least something :)

T/C
 
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As far as the second 'harvest' happening before the tribulation, I disagree...Let's look at it:


Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Seems to me that 'after the tribulation, the harvest is ripe?

This is at the sixth seal, which is also after the end of the tribulation according to the fifth seal:


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind

Seems pretty cut and dried to me..the sun moon and stars will not shine. it's 'after' the tribulation friend...

T/C
 
Oct 8, 2012
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As far as the second 'harvest' happening before the tribulation, I disagree...Let's look at it:
I did not state that the second harvest was before the great tribulation, but at the end of the great tribulation. We see the event of that second harvest beginning after the pre trib rapture event as all those slain are told to wait until the numbers are filled.

Revelation 69 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

How do you see the significance of God's warning to the church at Thyatira?

Revelation 218 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I believe this is spiritual fornication which is what many believers are doing when they seek to receive the "Holy Spirit" again after a sign of supernatural tongues that comes with no interpretation..... which is the depths of Satan that they speak and the result of gaining a stranger's voice for climbing up another way in hypocrisey.... by departing from faith that He dwells within as promised for coming to and believing in Jesus Christ.

The only way to repent is to shun vain and profane babblings and get back into the written word by returning to the Son, our first love, in relating to God the Father through the Bridegroom.
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Enow,

You said:

"That's the point about Matthew 13:33 having three harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of God: pre trib harvest: post trib harvest and the end of the milleniel reign of Christ thereabout after the final defeat of Satan harvest. Unfortunately, only the first harvest comes with the Marriage Supper."

And you said:

"I did not state that the second harvest was before the great tribulation, but at the end of the great tribulation. We see the event of that second harvest beginning after the pre trib rapture event as all those slain are told to wait until the numbers are filled."

Please clarify...are those who are under the alter from the tribulation...and are they from the rapture or the first harvest?

Also not that I am in agreement with three harvests, but hypothetically, you are saying that the 'second harvest' is after the 'tribulation'. if there is three harvests... is the 'rapture' you speak of one of those harvests or an entirely different event? Use scriptures to support these three different scenarios or four if the 'rapture is separate'. And explain why there has to be a rapture anyway if there are three harvests?

And explain why Jesus only mentions one harvest...at the end of the world?

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

and the reapers gather out of the kingdom the tares...that doesn't seem to jive with your 3 harvest/1 rapture theory...
T/C
 
Oct 8, 2012
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Enow,

You said:

"That's the point about Matthew 13:33 having three harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of God: pre trib harvest: post trib harvest and the end of the milleniel reign of Christ thereabout after the final defeat of Satan harvest. Unfortunately, only the first harvest comes with the Marriage Supper."

And you said:

"I did not state that the second harvest was before the great tribulation, but at the end of the great tribulation. We see the event of that second harvest beginning after the pre trib rapture event as all those slain are told to wait until the numbers are filled."

Please clarify...are those who are under the alter from the tribulation...and are they from the rapture or the first harvest?
Those under the alter are the wayward saints that were left behind from the pre tribulational rapture event.

Also not that I am in agreement with three harvests, but hypothetically, you are saying that the 'second harvest' is after the 'tribulation'. if there is three harvests... is the 'rapture' you speak of one of those harvests or an entirely different event? Use scriptures to support these three different scenarios or four if the 'rapture is separate'. And explain why there has to be a rapture anyway if there are three harvests?
Reread post #24 in this thread. There are verses in that talking about that point.

And explain why Jesus only mentions one harvest...at the end of the world?

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

and the reapers gather out of the kingdom the tares...that doesn't seem to jive with your 3 harvest/1 rapture theory...
T/C
Jesus did not really say one harvest, just citing the timing of that particular harvest.

What kind of a world are we living in? It is the end of that world He is referring to since obviously there will be a milleniel reign after the great tribulation and then after that, Satan will be loosed from the pit for a small season to stage the last rebellion which he will be defeated for the last time. So not quite the end of the world as we think of, but the end of "this" world as I had emboldened in your reference in your quote which everything we know of as of this world will end after the pre tribulational rapture event which will follow by the Good News being preached everywhere, then WWIII, then the warning of the consequences for taking the mark as this coming world will be tried in that hour of temptation before "that world" comes to an end with His return with the raptured saints.

Think of it like this: You in a time machine: if you go to the great tribulation where the world suffers the aftermath of WWIII and issuing a mark of the beast to survive in order to buy and sell, that would be a different world to you.

If you time travelled to the milleniel reign of Christ, that would be a different world to you as the lion will lie down with the lamb. and a child will lead them.

If you take one person from the great tribulation and one person from the milleniel reign of Christ and take them back to our time, it would be like a different world to them.

So it is more like the way of the world and how things are is what is coming to an end, because after the great tribulation, there is that milleniel reign of Christ before that last drama unfolds in the end where Jesus will remain victorious, putting down once and for all sin and death, and judging those without Christ to the lake of fire.

So when He says "the end of this world", you have to apply it to what He is talking about: not the end of all things. He is talking about the judgment that is coming on the House of God at the pre tribulational rapture event before the gospel is preached to all the world and then all the left behind people will see all they know about this world ending in WWIII as a new stage will be set: a new world order for the duration of the great tribulation.
 
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Those under the alter are the wayward saints that were left behind from the pre tribulational rapture event.



Reread post #24 in this thread. There are verses in that talking about that point.



Jesus did not really say one harvest, just citing the timing of that particular harvest.

What kind of a world are we living in? It is the end of that world He is referring to since obviously there will be a milleniel reign after the great tribulation and then after that, Satan will be loosed from the pit for a small season to stage the last rebellion which he will be defeated for the last time. So not quite the end of the world as we think of, but the end of "this" world as I had emboldened in your reference in your quote which everything we know of as of this world will end after the pre tribulational rapture event which will follow by the Good News being preached everywhere, then WWIII, then the warning of the consequences for taking the mark as this coming world will be tried in that hour of temptation before "that world" comes to an end with His return with the raptured saints.

Think of it like this: You in a time machine: if you go to the great tribulation where the world suffers the aftermath of WWIII and issuing a mark of the beast to survive in order to buy and sell, that would be a different world to you.

If you time travelled to the milleniel reign of Christ, that would be a different world to you as the lion will lie down with the lamb. and a child will lead them.

If you take one person from the great tribulation and one person from the milleniel reign of Christ and take them back to our time, it would be like a different world to them.

So it is more like the way of the world and how things are is what is coming to an end, because after the great tribulation, there is that milleniel reign of Christ before that last drama unfolds in the end where Jesus will remain victorious, putting down once and for all sin and death, and judging those without Christ to the lake of fire.

So when He says "the end of this world", you have to apply it to what He is talking about: not the end of all things. He is talking about the judgment that is coming on the House of God at the pre tribulational rapture event before the gospel is preached to all the world and then all the left behind people will see all they know about this world ending in WWIII as a new stage will be set: a new world order for the duration of the great tribulation.
Wow............
LOL, you are kidding me right! Time machines :) ok...let's blast off shall we!

You said:

Jesus did not really say one harvest, just citing the timing of that particular harvest.

So where does he specifically mention the other two harvests since I can only see that he says THE HARVEST is the END of the world:

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

So does the world end three times? I guess it could with your time machine HA HA lol :) Moving on:

You said:

Those under the alter are the wayward saints that were left behind from the pre tribulational rapture event.

Um ok...those under the alter are killed and they are from the tribulation according to

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So even if there were three harvests (which clearly there isn't without a time machine) that means your 'rapture' happens before those in white robes are killed? So does that make your 'rapture' the first harvest? Wow, they had to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb by death to get where they are...I cannot imagine what one must do to deserve a 'rapture'...Can you enlighten me there?



Oh yes and one more question for you: Do you believe that you folks from the 'rapture ' will live and reign with Christ during the thousand years and judge the world? If so...which will you be...those that were beheaded or those who overcame the mark of the beast?


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


There is only two groups there, which group are you? Because it is very clear that the saints are going be given thrones to judge the world: Also, can you tell me who the bodies of the saints that rose when Jesus did are and where did they go if they are not on Mt Zion as the first fruits. And will they be there too or are they left behind in Heaven while you rapture folks come down to judge?

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Oh and here is a real juggernaut for you...It says we all have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Since He and the saints will be down here giving judgment that you guys somehow got raptured up and away from..wont Heaven be kind of empty with Jesus and the saints down here ? I wonder what you all will be doing up there while He is down here wiping away our tears and comforting us In Jerusalem...

That will be kinda weird don't you think...Some conversations might go like this:"Gee guys, what do we do for a thousand years while we are waiting for the Lord to call us down from Heaven to New Jerusalem with everyone else"... "Uh I dunno Bob, lets just watch from up here i guess"..."WOW dave! look at that river of water flowing out of the throne down there healing all those people"! ya i wish I was down there with them!


Anyway, perhaps you can answer my questions I have asked, because this whole rapture business is a hoax to me according to the Bible I read. But then again, my Bible doesn't have a 'time machine' so that might be part of my problem....

T/C
 
Sep 3, 2009
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T/C said...........
"We don't agree on that...The tribulation is over at the fifth seal and the trumpets are handed out at the seventh seal which is the day of His wrath."

Completely wrong!

7 "Seal judgments".........7 "Trumpet Judgments........7 "Vial Judgments.

The 7th "Vial" judgment is Armageddon.

Rev. 16:17.........
"And the SEVENTH angel poured out his VIAL into the air and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven from the throne saying...IT IS DONE".


T/C then said................
"We don't agree on that either...The scriptures are very clear that the 'antichrist is not just present during the tribulation, it has been the whole time and that there are 'many'".

Yes, there are many antichrists in the world today. An anti-christ is obviousely anyone who is against Christ.

1 John 2:18
'Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. "

The Scriptures clearly teach us that THE antichrist, the MAN of sin will not be know until the Rapture removes the believers.

2 Thess. 2:1-4
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as Godin the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."


T/C then said...........
"We don't agree on that either...The Holy Spirit is not a 'physical presence with us. Neither is God:
Jesus is the only physical manifestation of God".

Holy Cow T/C??????

When Jesus introduces the Holy Spirit – the Spirit of Truth – in John 14-16, he says of him: “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me” (15:26, italics mine).

Later, Jesus says: “But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears… He will bringglory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you” (16:13-14).

We see here that the Spirit is another Counselor, Paraclete or Helper who is sent by Christ to be with the church. The Spirit performs his own distinctive work in redemption in that he enlightens, transforms, guides and sanctifies those who are Christ’s. “It is not the function of the Spirit, then, to bear witness to himself in his distinctive personal Being, but to bear witness to Christ and glorify him as Lord and Savior.”
Jesus tells his disciples that his physical presence will be replaced by “another Helper,” the Holy Spirit. Since the Spirit is “another” helper, we are to understand that Jesus himself was a helper for the disciples. In that the Holy Spirit can “replace” Jesus, we can only take this to mean that the Spirit is to be thought of as equal to Christ. Otherwise, how could the Spirit be able to come in the place of Jesus and perform saving work?

It appears to me that you are having a problem understanding the Trinity.


Then T/C says this.......................
"Now, I don't see anywhere in the two witnesses activity that they are performing miracles...only testifying and giving plagues to those who don't hearken unto their words. The miracle that I do see is when they are raptured up in the clouds:"

Revelation 11:5-7
"And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

I always thought that fire coming out of ones mouth, stopping rain from fallling and turning water to blood would pretty much be a miracle at the very least. I guess it is my understanding that is at fault here..........ya think???

T/C then gave us the reason why his comments are so differant than most when he said.......
"Anyway, perhaps you can answer my questions I have asked, because this whole rapture business is a hoax to me according to the Bible I read".

Welll, maybe we have found the problem. It must be the Bible you are reading.
 
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T/C said...........


Well hi there Major,

So I guess I will respond...Your stuff is in blue :

T/C said...........
"We don't agree on that...The tribulation is over at the fifth seal and the trumpets are handed out at the seventh seal which is the day of His wrath."

Completely wrong!

7 "Seal judgments".........7 "Trumpet Judgments........7 "Vial Judgments.

The 7th "Vial" judgment is Armageddon.

Rev 16:17.........
"And the SEVENTH angel poured out his VIAL into the air and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven from the throne saying...IT IS DONE".



My opinion:
So you appear to believe that the trumpets are part of the tribulation and so are the vials of wrath. Let's see if scripture bears that out shall we? We are told that AFTER the tribulation the sun, moon will be darkened and stars wont shine right...


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.


So when does this happen according to Revelation? The sixth seal.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

So the tribulation ends at the fifth seal, those who came out of it are given white robes,

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

and then the sixth seal starts...and it clearly says...the day of His wrath starts.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So that separates the tribulation from the wrath.


Now here is where you night reconsider... the trumpets are given out at the SEVENTH seal:

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.


The trumpets are not handed out until the tribulation is over and the day of His wrath is come ....Not much to dispute there major.

Now as to your next comment:



T/C then said................
"We don't agree on that either...The scriptures are very clear that the 'antichrist is not just present during the tribulation, it has been the whole time and that there are 'many'".

Major says:

The Scriptures clearly teach us that THE antichrist, the MAN of sin will not be know until the Rapture removes the believers.

2 Thess 2:1-4
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."


My opinion:
It doesn't clearly state anything except that the falling away must happen first and the man of sin is revealed. And it most certainly doesn't say rapture or even harpazo..it says gathering. Which will be to New Jerusalem when He brings it down and starts His reign. It also doesn't say 'antichrist' either...so why do you jump to the conclusion that it is? Nowhere in scripture does it single out one guy AND call him the 'antichrist'. If it does show me. show me one scripture in the entire Bible that says the antichrist and the man of sin are one and the same..and is only one man.

Now for your next comment:

T/C then said...........
"We don't agree on that either...The Holy Spirit is not a 'physical presence with us. Neither is God:
Jesus is the only physical manifestation of God".

Holy Cow T/C??????

When Jesus introduces the Holy Spirit – the Spirit of Truth – in John 14-16, he says of him: “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me” (15:26, italics mine).

Later, Jesus says: “But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears… He will bringglory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you” (16:13-14).

We see here that the Spirit is another Counselor, Paraclete or Helper who is sent by Christ to be with the church. The Spirit performs his own distinctive work in redemption in that he enlightens, transforms, guides and sanctifies those who are Christ’s. “It is not the function of the Spirit, then, to bear witness to himself in his distinctive personal Being, but to bear witness to Christ and glorify him as Lord and Savior.”
Jesus tells his disciples that his physical presence will be replaced by “another Helper,” the Holy Spirit. Since the Spirit is “another” helper, we are to understand that Jesus himself was a helper for the disciples. In that the Holy Spirit can “replace” Jesus, we can only take this to mean that the Spirit is to be thought of as equal to Christ. Otherwise, how could the Spirit be able to come in the place of Jesus and perform saving work?

It appears to me that you are having a problem understanding the Trinity.

My opinion:
Your statement seems to suggest that the Holy Spirit is a 'physical' being, rather than a 'spiritual' one. My point is that the Holy Spirit is just that..Spirit, not a physical entity. You can't see Him can you?

Some see the trinity as an egg( shell, yolk, white)

I look at the trinity perhaps a bit different...I will admit that. I see it like water...can take on three different forms but is the same. ( liquid, solid, vapor,)

Interestingly, look at the characteristics of water:...a cleanser, a cutter, a lubricant, cannot be broken, takes on more than one form, but can go back and forth to the other forms. seems to fit God more than a fragile egg..And if you separate a yolk from the egg shell, they aren't one anymore...nor can they be put back together as one.

Anyhow, that is my take on that. (I could give you a thirty page study I wrote on the trinity if you would read it.)


Your next comment:

Then T/C says this.......................
"Now, I don't see anywhere in the two witnesses activity that they are performing miracles...only testifying and giving plagues to those who don't hearken unto their words. The miracle that I do see is when they are raptured up in the clouds:"

Revelation 11:5-7
"And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

I always thought that fire coming out of ones mouth, stopping rain from fallling and turning water to blood would pretty much be a miracle at the very least. I guess it is my understanding that is at fault here..........ya think???

My opinion:
I always considered miracles to be good things, baby being born, a blessing from nowhere, etc. I don't consider plagues and famines and fire devouring enemies to be any kind of 'miracle' that I would be wanting to see or receive!.. Jesus most certainly didn't perform those kind of miracles either. Again, that is just a perspective on 'miracle'. If he had said 'supernatural acts' I would have agreed wholeheartedly. I noticed you didn't touch the rapture part...the witnesses are the ones who are caught up in the clouds as the seventh trumpet begins to sound my friend.

Last, I use a KJV it is reliable, and has cut my heart to pieces every time I pick it up...

God Bless,
TC
 
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T/C..........I see no reason to reply to things we are diametricly in disagreement over. What is the point???

I do understand your thinking on Miracles but actuall they are things that can not be explained by natural reason whether they be good or bad is not the point.

Stopping the rain from falling to me is a miracle. It is not for the good of the people on earth at that time but it is good to prove that these 2 men are witnesses for God. The action can not be explained except that it will be done through the power of God.

The parting of the Red Sea was good for the people leaving Egypt but bad for the Egyptians who were drowned when it close. But the point is that the Red Sea was actually parted and can not be explained except by the power of God.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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T/C said................

Completely wrong!

7 "Seal judgments".........7 "Trumpet Judgments........7 "Vial Judgments.

The 7th "Vial" judgment is Armageddon.

Rev 16:17.........
"And the SEVENTH angel poured out his VIAL into the air and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven from the throne saying...IT IS DONE".

T/C says "Completely wrong", but then uses Rev. 17:17 which in fact proves exactly what I said.

The SEVENTH angel poured out his VIAL..........It is done.

This is the last sweies of 7 judgments before the second coming of Christ and is the seventh and last of the last seven.
In other words, just as T/C has stated......"IT IS DONE" places the events at the end of the Great Tribulation which is Armageddon.

Notice that the church is not a part of this scene at all.
 
Jul 25, 2012
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T/C said................

Completely wrong!

7 "Seal judgments".........7 "Trumpet Judgments........7 "Vial Judgments.

The 7th "Vial" judgment is Armageddon.

Rev 16:17.........
"And the SEVENTH angel poured out his VIAL into the air and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven from the throne saying...IT IS DONE".

T/C says "Completely wrong", but then uses Rev. 17:17 which in fact proves exactly what I said.

The SEVENTH angel poured out his VIAL..........It is done.

This is the last sweies of 7 judgments before the second coming of Christ and is the seventh and last of the last seven.
In other words, just as T/C has stated......"IT IS DONE" places the events at the end of the Great Tribulation which is Armageddon.

Notice that the church is not a part of this scene at all.

Major, you said:

T/C says "Completely wrong", but then uses Rev 17:17 which in fact proves exactly what I said.

Where did I use Rev 17: 17 to refute your point? I don't see it anywhere in my post. And if you meant Rev 16:17, that was part of a paste from your post. that was not one that I used. Nothing I used in my last post substantiates anything in yours, but like you said...it is diametrically apposed to what you believe. I hope anyone reading this post pays attention to what the scriptures say and the context by which we used them. Every scripture you use to justify it applies somewhere else.



Even after I plainly spelled it out for you that 'after the tribulation' the sun moon and stars don't shine, which is the sixth seal, and the seventh seal is when the trumpets are handed out. You still say the tribulation and wrath are the same.It's like you are trying to say the seventh seal happens before the first four. It simply doesn't say that in scripture. The trumpets are handed out at the seventh seal. The seventh seal is the start of the wrath which is after the tribulation. otherwise, those who washed their robes in great tribulation would have also gone through the wrath, which none of us are appointed to. The Bible clearly separates the two times.

The tribulation ends, the day of the Lord starts. Those who remain and are found worthy will remain and find Salvation in Jerusalem. Compare scripture...precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

And finally Joel:



Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.


Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
Isa 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up


2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and
I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Pro 2:21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
Pro 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Psa 122:2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.

Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.


The wicked are leaving the day of the Harvest and the righteous will inherit the earth.


Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Psa 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Psa 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Psa 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.

Psa 52:5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah.
Psa 52:6 The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him:
Psa 52:7 Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness.


If you are in Him and He in you, you will watch the wicked being taken away by the angels in that day and you will be left standing.


Now go read the parables of the wise virgins and the sheep and the goats. They that are wise and did the will of the Father will remain the others are cast away my friend. If the day of the Lord starts tomorrow...He rips the sky open and sends the angels down to end heathens party, are you ready?

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The righteous aren't going anywhere. I don't care what kind of smoke and mirror games you try to play, the Bible is very clear what happens. The righteous will remain and the wicked are removed. May God be IN your heart on that day.

Sincerely T/C
 
TC, the problem is with most of your arguments is that you are basing them on an already unsound foundation, such as replacement theology. For example the parable of sheep and goats is not what you are declaring it to be and you are using it out of context. Read the whole of this parable again. I have put this up at end of my post.

Certainly first few verses do not give much away and are often cherry picked for certain agendas. However read on, if this is sorting everyone who lived, then do you not think that this is strange thing to say if it for everyone ?

"35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’".......
.........“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


However when you realise that Jesus is a Jew and his fellow brothers and sisters are Jews, then He is talking about people helping Jews, then it all makes more sense, its then obvious that during the Tribulation those people who have helped the Jews and stood by them will be rewarded by entry into heaven.

YOu can not use this parable to support a no rapture theory. I see you are still up to your old tricks of trying to discredit other people and claiming some kind of moral high ground. Yes the Bible is clear on what happens, problem is you are making up your own interpretation which flies against what the Bible really says, the Sheep and Goats is a prime example.

I have said countless times that people could prove almost anything from clever manipulation and cherry picking verses in Bible, yet again I see you have done exactly this again, claiming you are using a few verses in correct context etc when clearly they are not, therefore the theories you support with these come tumbling down, your theology is like a house of playing cards, you have to work very long and hard to keep it from falling, but it only takes one tug at a tiny small part of it, such as sheep and goats, and the whole lot comes crashing down.



31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
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Sorry T/C...........it was a quote of Rev. 16:17.

I used the wrong chapter but the comments still stand. Just a mistake in typing.

I can not respond to your post......just to long for me. As I have staed before, all the verses you use do not work to help your opinion.
 
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TC, the problem is with most of your arguments is that you are basing them on an already unsound foundation, such as replacement theology. For example the parable of sheep and goats is not what you are declaring it to be and you are using it out of context. Read the whole of this parable again. I have put this up at end of my post.

Certainly first few verses do not give much away and are often cherry picked for certain agendas. However read on, if this is sorting everyone who lived, then do you not think that this is strange thing to say if it for everyone ?

"35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’".......
.........“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


However when you realise that Jesus is a Jew and his fellow brothers and sisters are Jews, then He is talking about people helping Jews, then it all makes more sense, its then obvious that during the Tribulation those people who have helped the Jews and stood by them will be rewarded by entry into heaven.

YOu can not use this parable to support a no rapture theory. I see you are still up to your old tricks of trying to discredit other people and claiming some kind of moral high ground. Yes the Bible is clear on what happens, problem is you are making up your own interpretation which flies against what the Bible really says, the Sheep and Goats is a prime example.

I have said countless times that people could prove almost anything from clever manipulation and cherry picking verses in Bible, yet again I see you have done exactly this again, claiming you are using a few verses in correct context etc when clearly they are not, therefore the theories you support with these come tumbling down, your theology is like a house of playing cards, you have to work very long and hard to keep it from falling, but it only takes one tug at a tiny small part of it, such as sheep and goats, and the whole lot comes crashing down.



31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
You are correct my friend. I have told T/C the same thing many many times. I think he believes that by posting a lot of Scripture it will convince us he is correct. The fact is that the Scriptures he uses do not speak at all to his claims.
 
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Major said:I can not respond to your post......just to long for me. As I have staed before, all the verses you use do not work to help your opinion.[/quote]



"35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’".......
.........“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


However when you realise that Jesus is a Jew and his fellow brothers and sisters are Jews, then He is talking about people helping Jews, then it all makes more sense, its then obvious that during the Tribulation those people who have helped the Jews and stood by them will be rewarded by entry into heaven.


To both Major and Agricola:

I don't subscribe to any kind of theology. I just read the Bible..Major, you are SOOOOOO wrong on the sheep and the goats. . But lets look at what Jesus said:


Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

So...who did Jesus say were His 'brethren'?


Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


He wasn't talking to the Jews or about those who help the Jews 2000 years later.He was talking about to the disciples. What He was talking about is this:

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

and remember the good samaritan?

Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


It isn't works if the Holy Spirit is in you. That is called fruits of the Spirit..which those who are truly born again have:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Your 'sheep and goats' theory doesn't stand up to scripture friend.

God Bless
T/C