Enduring To The End To Be Saved?

Sep 3, 2009
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Hee Hee...Calvin, lighten up man. I gave you a few scriptures about what I believe. If you don't want to take the time to read them, I understand.

However, I would like to pose a question to you...Are you born of God?

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So....Are you born of God? Maybe now you will take the time to go read my post and take the time to understand where I am coming from on this question...But then again, maybe you won't. It requires more than a simple yes or no. I answered yes when I approached the throne of Grace for a new heart. He took it from there.

Are you born of God?

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Sincerely,

T/C
And right here is the number one reason why most everything you say is dismissed by those that read it.
YOU simply do not know the Scriptures enough to be making comments as you do.

Consider 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Then you used that verse to say............
"So....Are you born of God? Maybe now you will take the time to go read my post and take the time to understand where I am coming from on this question...But then again, maybe you won't. It requires more than a simple yes or no. I answered yes when I approached the throne of Grace for a new heart. He took it from there.

Are you born of God?"******

Your comment show all of us your ignorance of the Word of God and gives us the reason why your theology is so perverted and heretical. T/C, I must tell you that it distresses me to see you expound on such elementry things as this when the Bible is so clear on this subject. You sir post more Scriptures that mean nothing to support your comments, but you ignore the teachings of those that teaching the clear truth of what God intended.

All one has to do is read 1 John 3:6-9 to see that John IS NOT teaching sinless perfection as you are trying to make it say. John is speaking here of habitual practice of known sinful acts. The true believers actions will conform to the character of his true father, either God or Satan. The person born of God will reflect this in his behavior.

When anyone reads 1 John 3 for proper context, we beomce aware that John was talking about the pattern of a persons life hence the word "CONTINUE". He was not talking about isolated acts of sin but about the direction of ones journey in life.

The real question therefore is NOT......"DOES HE SIN", but "DOES HE MAKE SIN A HABIT?"

When God's life takes root in our heart, that "seed remains in him", the life of God within in us struggels against sin and the Holy Spirit nudges us in a new direction. So, over time there is objective evidence of a righteous life to match the inner witness of love and responsiveness to God. Over time. Not necessarily immediately!
The objective evidence WILL COME!

So with the proper understanding we can now see that John promised.......
"NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD WILL CONTINUE IN SIN".

It is not possible for sin to keep us in bondage, because the life of God within us will overcome the evil of the OLD nature which stays with us until death.

Now T/C.......I really do wish that you would not confront people who do not agree with you by challenging their salvation. Could not anyone do that to you????

You use 1 John 3:9 but do you understand the gravity of Titus 2:7-8..............
"In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works, in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
sound speech that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part mat be ashamed having no evil
thing to say of you".
 
Jul 22, 2010
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Hee Hee...Calvin, lighten up man. I gave you a few scriptures about what I believe. If you don't want to take the time to read them, I understand.

However, I would like to pose a question to you...Are you born of God?

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So....Are you born of God? Maybe now you will take the time to go read my post and take the time to understand where I am coming from on this question...But then again, maybe you won't. It requires more than a simple yes or no. I answered yes when I approached the throne of Grace for a new heart. He took it from there.

Are you born of God?

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Sincerely,

T/C
Actually Mr. T/C, in addition to the spiritually discerned reply made to you by Major, your apparently intentional mis quoting of 1 John 3:9 is disturbingly reminiscent of the cause for Peter's letter: 2 Pet 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Pet 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Pet 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
2 Pet 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2 Pet 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2 Pet 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
2 Pet 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Even a careful study of the words used in the Kjv will show "doth not commit" means to not continue or even to devise or originate, perpetuate a thing. That is why the ESV and others have a more enlightening rendering than the Kjv.

Jesus Christ is our righteousness! Whenever we take our eyes of Him and seek to establish our own righteous standing, we are in effect despising the Cross, despising Christ Jesus Himself.
And that appears to be your agenda here.
 
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Actually Mr. T/C, in addition to the spiritually discerned reply made to you by Major, your apparently intentional mis quoting of 1 John 3:9 is disturbingly reminiscent of the cause for Peter's letter: 2 Pet 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:



Even a careful study of the words used in the Kjv will show "doth not commit" means to not continue or even to devise or originate, perpetuate a thing. That is why the ESV and others have a more enlightening rendering than the Kjv.

Jesus Christ is our righteousness! Whenever we take our eyes of Him and seek to establish our own righteous standing, we are in effect despising the Cross, despising Christ Jesus Himself.
And that appears to be your agenda here.



Well guys I guess we just agree to see things a little different don't we...I believe God gives us the power to overcome our flesh and live in the Spirit, thus no longer being under the law of sin.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Grace is not a 'hall pass' to continue in sin, but a way to overcome it.The flesh will always sin and will always fail us, that is why we must be born again in the Spirit and overcome the fate of sinners. Our righteousness is not of us or works it is by the Holy Spirit.


A careful study of 1 John 3:9 (which I have done many times) is consistent with the rest of scripture in it's context. The words 'doth not' the Greek:

G3756
οὐ
ou
oo
Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ ouch ookh before an aspirate.
A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but. See also G3364, G3372.

How do we accomplish that? We cannot... but Jesus can. The bottom line is this. I know and have seen the power of God in my heart and I know He has made me free from the law of sin. If He hasn't done that for you then you do not know Him:

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You cannot skirt the issue just because you want to. Either you are born again and have the Holy Spirit to overcome or you don't. He will decide in that day-not me. Say what you want to justify your lives, you cannot hide your heart from Him who sits on the throne. Perhaps you might want to do a study on what Grace is and how Grace transforms you into a new creature. You won't convince this guy that the Holy Spirit isn't strong enough to fix that which was broken... because He has and I am not ashamed to admit it.

You said:

"That is why the ESV and others have a more enlightening rendering than the Kjv."


Perhaps that is your problem...you are reading an interpretation rather than a translation. There is a huge difference! But you sound like you know all and clearly believe you have a better understanding of the gospel than I do so go die in your sin if you want to...

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Jesus was manifested to stop us from sinning not to give us a 'hall pass' to continue that way.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Scripture is consistent, don't cherry pick them for your own justification.

Respectfully,
T/C
 
Sep 3, 2009
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T/C said to calvin................

"Perhaps that is your problem...you are reading an interpretation rather than a translation. There is a huge difference! But you sound like you know all and clearly believe you have a better understanding of the gospel than I do so go die in your sin if you want to..."


Over the line!!!! Totally uncalled for!!!!

WHY do people like you insist on making personal comments to those who do not agree with you????
Of course calvin knows more about the gospel because all one has to do is just read your opinions on Biblical matters to see that.

I see it all the time here. You make a comment, someone disagrees with it and then that oneis called "unsaved" or "know it all" and on and on.

What ever happened to the art of civil communication?

I have a feeling that if some of the people who do this were not seperated by a computer screen, their tone of comunication would be a lot nicer.
 
Jul 22, 2010
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Major brought to light:
T/C said to calvin................

"Perhaps that is your problem...you are reading an interpretation rather than a translation. There is a huge difference! But you sound like you know all and clearly believe you have a better understanding of the gospel than I do so go die in your sin if you want to..."
Thanks Major, I had not read that previously. I now see it was too far down the line for my interest to continue.

Well T/C, as I pointed out in another thread here some place, any version of the Scriptures is an interpretation.
You are sadly misinformed when you say "There is a huge difference." There is not; with the possible exception of a 'paraphrase'.
I notice you have cited some Greek words tied to Strong's numbers.....Ok, so you must be aware that for just about every Greek or Hebrew/Chaldean word, there are a fair number of English words offered as possible candidates?

Every translator, interprets the text to see which English word he feels best expresses the original intent of the document being translated. You looked up the Greek for 'doth not' fine, but you did not exert yourself to study that in context. What does the 'doth not' refer to? I really tried to point you in the right direction in my reply #63, I quoted, "doth not continue'. You looked up all that you apparently wanted to see; the very thing you accuse others of doing.
Go back to your Strong's and study all the possible meanings of the word used for 'continue'. And you, along with all bona fide translators are free to use which ever of the possible usages are suggested there. But know this: Every translation of the Scriptures in also an interpretation......without exception.
So please do not further discredit your own intellect by making statements as you have thus far done :
"Perhaps that is your problem...you are reading an interpretation rather than a translation. There is a huge difference"
That is not the sort of statement that an informed person of integrity would make.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Major brought to light:

Thanks Major, I had not read that previously. I now see it was too far down the line for my interest to continue.

Well T/C, as I pointed out in another thread here some place, any version of the Scriptures is an interpretation.
You are sadly misinformed when you say "There is a huge difference." There is not; with the possible exception of a 'paraphrase'.
I notice you have cited some Greek words tied to Strong's numbers.....Ok, so you must be aware that for just about every Greek or Hebrew/Chaldean word, there are a fair number of English words offered as possible candidates?

Every translator, interprets the text to see which English word he feels best expresses the original intent of the document being translated. You looked up the Greek for 'doth not' fine, but you did not exert yourself to study that in context. What does the 'doth not' refer to? I really tried to point you in the right direction in my reply #63, I quoted, "doth not continue'. You looked up all that you apparently wanted to see; the very thing you accuse others of doing.
Go back to your Strong's and study all the possible meanings of the word used for 'continue'. And you, along with all bona fide translators are free to use which ever of the possible usages are suggested there. But know this: Every translation of the Scriptures in also an interpretation......without exception.
So please do not further discredit your own intellect by making statements as you have thus far done : That is not the sort of statement that an informed person of integrity would make.
Spot on and Well said!
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Spot on and Well said!

You guys have obviously not done your homework on this one...First, a translation is word for word as best as is possible from one language to another. An interpretation is translation of the words and then interpreting what the writing means. Big difference...


And if you don't believe it, go put a King James next to the Greek and Hebrew text, The only changes you will see are italicized to show that they added a word because nothing existed in the language that was equivalent. Then go try that with an ESV or NIV.

Compare your Bible with this KJV scripture:

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Does it say God or He...Here is the ESV

16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:
He[a] was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated[b] by the Spirit,[c]
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.

Takes God right out of His own book! Now, if you were trying to prove that the Bible says Jesus is God to a JW or Mormon how could you using this scripture in your Bible? You can't...

Now let's go to the word 'vindicated' in your version...Are we 'vindicated' by the Holy Spirit? really...I thought we were justified by the Holy Spirit. How can you compare scripture- precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little, with so many changes in words from the Greek and Hebrew? How is the Word of God going to circumcise your heart if you are reading some perversion of it? Here is an exerpt from a KJV verses ESV study for you to read...

The Virgin Birth is attacked by the ESV in Isaiah 7:14 by replacing "virgin" with "young woman".

Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." KJV

Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." ESV


…then again in Luke 2:33 by saying that Joseph was the father of Jesus!

Luke 2:33 "And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him." KJV

Luke 2:33 "And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him." ESV



While the ESV corrupts the word of God, it seems like they try their best to cover their tracts. In 2 Corinthians 2:17, they replace "corrupt the word of God" with "peddlers of God's word".

2 Corinthians 2:17 "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ." KJV

2 Corinthians 2:17 "For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ." ESV



The ESV takes out the word "study" in 2 Timothy 2:15 and replaces it with "Do your best". What a joke right? Not only do they do that, but they take out the words "rightly dividing" and replace it with "rightly handling". To understand the Bible one must know how to rightly divide it.

2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." KJV

2 Timothy 2:15 "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." ESV



In Luke 4:4, the ESV takes out the phrase "but by every word of God" and we can see why! Note that the Lord Jesus Christ is quoting Deuteronomy 8:3.

Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." KJV

Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone." ESV


Here are a couple other interesting things about the ESV. (Compare the scriptures with each other and then against the other version:)

KJV - 1 Kings 10:8 Happy are thy men, happy are these thy servants, which stand continually before thee, and that hear thy wisdom.

KJV - 2 Chronicles 9:7 Happy are thy men, and happy are these thy servants, which stand continually before thee, and hear thy wisdom.
And the ESV:
ESV - 1 Kings 10:8 Happy are your men! Happy are your servants, who continually stand before you and hear your wisdom!

ESV - 2 Chronicles 9:7 Happy are your wives! Happy are these your servants, who continually stand before you and hear your wisdom!
KJV says heart, ESV says mind

KJV - Daniel 4:6 Let his heart be changed from man’s, and let a beast’s heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
ESV - Daniel 4:6 Let his mind be changed from a man's, and let a beast's mind be given to him; and let seven periods of time pass over him.

Many verses are completely missing from the ESV:

Matthew 12:47, Matthew 17:21, Matthew 18:11, Matthew 23:14, Mark 7:16, Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, Mark 11:26, Mark 15:28, Luke 17:36, Luke 23:17, Luke 24:40, John 5:4, Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 24:7, Acts 28:29, Romans 16:24

Now lets look at 1st Corinthians for an example of line upon line that cannot be done in the ESV:
First the KJV

KJV1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


The KJV then explains the fate of the carnal minded:

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


What does the ESV say?

ESV - 1 Corinthians 3:3-4 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human?

6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8

Which one is easier to understand to you? I am not going to go into a ten thousand word diatribe on the newer versions, but go do your own homework if you love God and want to know the truth. I showed you a few of the ESV, now go to this link and see a small bit of proof for yourself concerning the NIV....56,000+ changes and several verses completely removed from the Greek and Hebrew text. Many of your new Bibles have done this because they use Wescott and Hort Greek text rather than the Textus Receptus which is where the KJV comes from. Again, go do some homework before spouting off that there is no difference between a translation and interpretation.

http://www.av1611.org/niv.html

T/C
 
Jul 25, 2012
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On that note, we are completely off topic..so lets go back to enduring until the end shall we...You must endure till the end and not fall away:

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

You don't get Grace twice! if you fall away you cannot go repent again, and re-receive it.... and you CAN have your 'talent' taken in that day:

Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Guard your heart from the enemy..don't let Satan rob you of that precious gift!

God Bless

T/C
 
Jul 22, 2010
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On that note, we are completely off topic..so lets go back to enduring until the end shall we...You must endure till the end and not fall away:
Yes, you have taken this discussion way off topic. You have gone to a lot of trouble to make your point, and although I do not agree with your findings, I do respect the effort you have made.
Seems to me that a new thread could be an interesting pursuit, however just one or a few points in passing: What is the King James Bible referred to as? Is it not variously called the King James Version or the Authorized Version? Leave the Niv out of it, it should be burned at the stake in my opinion. You are displeased with the English Standard Version. Note my emphasis of the word Version, So, I refer back to my point, that "any version of the Scriptures is an interpretation". I never once said that a 'translation' was an interpretation as you seem to think I said.
You guys have obviously not done your homework on this one...First, a translation is word for word as best as is possible from one language to another. An interpretation is translation of the words and then interpreting what the writing means. Big difference...
So, that would mean translating the words εργων νομου would have to be ' deed of parceling out food for animals' (from Strong's concordance), a literal translation from part of Gal 3:2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Kjv. Of course the Kjv is a version not a translation.
Y'see T/C, even the Kjv has to be given interpretation in order to make some kind of sense.
I think you should retract that statement don't you? Are we 'splitting hairs here? I think not. We should leave this discussion to another thread though.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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On that note, we are completely off topic..so lets go back to enduring until the end shall we...You must endure till the end and not fall away:

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

You don't get Grace twice! if you fall away you cannot go repent again, and re-receive it.... and you CAN have your 'talent' taken in that day:

Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Guard your heart from the enemy..don't let Satan rob you of that precious gift!

God Bless

T/C
You use Hebrews to try and force your theology onto everyone else. You completly ignore the fact that Hebrews was written to Jews who wanted to return to the rituals of the Jews.

If they turned from Christ to the temple and rituals and law.......THEN there would be no other sacrifice for them by which they could be saved. IF they turned from Christ just as now if we leave Him, then we were NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH.
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Yes, you have taken this discussion way off topic. You have gone to a lot of trouble to make your point, and although I do not agree with your findings, I do respect the effort you have made.
Seems to me that a new thread could be an interesting pursuit, however just one or a few points in passing: What is the King James Bible referred to as? Is it not variously called the King James Version or the Authorized Version? Leave the Niv out of it, it should be burned at the stake in my opinion. You are displeased with the English Standard Version. Note my emphasis of the word Version, So, I refer back to my point, that "any version of the Scriptures is an interpretation". I never once said that a 'translation' was an interpretation as you seem to think I said.
So, that would mean translating the words εργων νομου would have to be ' deed of parceling out food for animals' (from Strong's concordance), a literal translation from part of Gal 3:2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Kjv. Of course the Kjv is a version not a translation.
Y'see T/C, even the Kjv has to be given interpretation in order to make some kind of sense.
I think you should retract that statement don't you? Are we 'splitting hairs here? I think not. We should leave this discussion to another thread though.

Hi Calvin, I wasn't talking about using a Strongs to do an interpretation, I was referring to Greek Scholars who know how to read the language. I studied Hebrew and believe me, it is not as easy as Strongs makes it out to be for us who don't speak it fluently. I trust that God knew what He was doing when He turned the heart of the King to commision the KJV and also who was invited to do the work. We are very fortunate to have a Strongs to assist us in our endeavors! However, you are right...let's not split hairs and save that for another discussion.


God bless and have a wonderful day
T/C
 
Jul 25, 2012
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You use Hebrews to try and force your theology onto everyone else. You completly ignore the fact that Hebrews was written to Jews who wanted to return to the rituals of the Jews.

If they turned from Christ to the temple and rituals and law.......THEN there would be no other sacrifice for them by which they could be saved. IF they turned from Christ just as now if we leave Him, then we were NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH.
So Major, Hebrews was only written to the Jews eh?

The first two chapters pertain to the office of Jesus Christ and the nature of His visit to Earth...that isn't just to the Jews.

and let's just sample a few others to see if they were meant 'only for for Jews'

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So all that talk about Grace is for the Jews..


Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I don't know about you Major, but Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith...I hardly think that Hebrews is only for Jews. It was written towards the Jewish Christians...Christians being the operative term.

A Christian is a Christian no matter what 'ethnicity' they are. The scriptures I used in Luke, Galatians, and Matthew support what is in Hebrews. If the book of Hebrews doesn't apply to you, don't ever use it again to justify your positions.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


I don't see any footnotes saying Hebrews is not to be applied to the heart of a Christian. But wrestle with the scriptures however you want to make your case..it is between you and Him anyway.

God Bless,

T/C
 
Sep 3, 2009
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So Major, Hebrews was only written to the Jews eh?

The first two chapters pertain to the office of Jesus Christ and the nature of His visit to Earth...that isn't just to the Jews.

and let's just sample a few others to see if they were meant 'only for for Jews'

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So all that talk about Grace is for the Jews..


Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I don't know about you Major, but Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith...I hardly think that Hebrews is only for Jews. It was written towards the Jewish Christians...Christians being the operative term.

A Christian is a Christian no matter what 'ethnicity' they are. The scriptures I used in Luke, Galatians, and Matthew support what is in Hebrews. If the book of Hebrews doesn't apply to you, don't ever use it again to justify your positions.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


I don't see any footnotes saying Hebrews is not to be applied to the heart of a Christian. But wrestle with the scriptures however you want to make your case..it is between you and Him anyway.

God Bless,

T/C
My goodness. T/C...........I did NOT say that Hebrews WAS..........."I hardly think that Hebrews is only for Jews. "

I said clearly that ...."Hebrews was written to Jews who wanted to return to the rituals of the Jews.

If they turned from Christ to the temple and rituals and law.."



Of course ALL Scripture is profitible but in all cases it is very important to understand WHO wrote the book and to whom was it written to. That my friend is the key to correct Bible study .

Just so that you will be able to understand.......the 1st chapter of Hebrews is.........
1. The superior worth and dignity of Christ above Moses.
2. The Hebrews (Believing Jews) are warned of the sin and danger of unbelief.

Chapter 2 is.........
1. The necessity of faith in Christ and to stedfastly follow Him without turning back to Judasim.
2. Fear is urged lest any should come short of God rest through unbelief.
3. Arguments and motives to faith and hope in our approach to God.
4. Then comes the office and duty of a high priest which is answered in Christ.
 
Jul 25, 2012
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My goodness. T/C...........I did NOT say that Hebrews WAS..........."I hardly think that Hebrews is only for Jews. "

I said clearly that ...."Hebrews was written to Jews who wanted to return to the rituals of the Jews.

If they turned from Christ to the temple and rituals and law.."



Of course ALL Scripture is profitible but in all cases it is very important to understand WHO wrote the book and to whom was it written to. That my friend is the key to correct Bible study .

Just so that you will be able to understand.......the 1st chapter of Hebrews is.........
1. The superior worth and dignity of Christ above Moses.
2. The Hebrews (Believing Jews) are warned of the sin and danger of unbelief.

Chapter 2 is.........
1. The necessity of faith in Christ and to stedfastly follow Him without turning back to Judasim.
2. Fear is urged lest any should come short of God rest through unbelief.
3. Arguments and motives to faith and hope in our approach to God.
4. Then comes the office and duty of a high priest which is answered in Christ.

My mistake then Major, I thought you meant that Hebrews was written to the Jews, not to Jewish Christians...Sorry about that.

I will just say this, I don't think it is important to know 'who' the writer is...We don't even know for sure if it was Paul who wrote it or just who the author is. There is still much contention about this. We do know that it came from God though, so that is good enough for me. Worldly knowledge applied to the Bible is dangerous because history can be changed..What if you were on a small island and had no access to the internet..but you had a Bible. Would the Bible still have the same effect on your heart even if you didn't know who wrote it? I say yes it would because the Holy Spirit is the teacher and He writes it into our hearts. Just my thoughts, have a blessed day!

T/C
 
Sep 3, 2009
12,192
4,724
113
Florida
My mistake then Major, I thought you meant that Hebrews was written to the Jews, not to Jewish Christians...Sorry about that.

I will just say this, I don't think it is important to know 'who' the writer is...We don't even know for sure if it was Paul who wrote it or just who the author is. There is still much contention about this. We do know that it came from God though, so that is good enough for me. Worldly knowledge applied to the Bible is dangerous because history can be changed..What if you were on a small island and had no access to the internet..but you had a Bible. Would the Bible still have the same effect on your heart even if you didn't know who wrote it? I say yes it would because the Holy Spirit is the teacher and He writes it into our hearts. Just my thoughts, have a blessed day!

T/C
Thank you and I agree. The Author is a moot question and has been for 200 years now.

If I was on an island with no internet, I would just wait and get information from one of the bottles that floated up.:)
 
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