Enduring To The End To Be Saved?

Jul 25, 2012
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TC, the problem is with most of your arguments is that you are basing them on an already unsound foundation, such as replacement theology. For example the parable of sheep and goats is not what you are declaring it to be and you are using it out of context. Read the whole of this parable again. I have put this up at end of my post.

Certainly first few verses do not give much away and are often cherry picked for certain agendas. However read on, if this is sorting everyone who lived, then do you not think that this is strange thing to say if it for everyone ?

"35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’".......
.........“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


However when you realise that Jesus is a Jew and his fellow brothers and sisters are Jews, then He is talking about people helping Jews, then it all makes more sense, its then obvious that during the Tribulation those people who have helped the Jews and stood by them will be rewarded by entry into heaven.

I posted below for you and Major in case you don't get an alert to go read it. It is in response to your ;sheep and goats' theory

T/C
 
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

So...who did Jesus say were His 'brethren'?
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
So in your theory brethren are believers who carry out Gods instructions. I notice you are cherry picking again, what a surprise. Anyway I will indulge as I am about to show you how this falls flat on its face.

NOw lets re-read the parable with this in mind, not just a single verse.

Verse 31 and 32 establish that the time of the sheep and goats is when Jesus returns as King and sits on his throne in Jerusalem and is now passing judgement on the nations and the people of those nations. Has this happened NO, this is a physical act and event and after the anti-christ has been defeated, as far as I know this has not happened yet either.
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Verse 32 and 33 tell us that Jesus will now sort the people into two groups, goats and sheep, the sheep being the ones who will enter the kingdom.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Verse 34-36, tells us why they have been chosen.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’


The Sheep now are puzzled and ask why they have been chosen and when they did these things.
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

The King, Jesus will give them the answer
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

Equally the goats are also confused and wonder why they are goats, so we get the same reply but this time in the negative.,
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Ok so according to you TC, the brethren in this case must be fellow believers through all of time fine, but this still asks the question, who are the sheep and goats?
re-read this part but using the theory you have. I have put your interpretation in square brackets.
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these [beleivers who did my fathers work ]you did for me.

So if you are counting this as ALL believers from ALL OF TIME and so on it is illogical, the sheep and goats are clearly not Brethren, they are simply people who helped Jesus by helping his Brethren , the Brethren and people being sorted are two distinct seperate groups, not the same.

By using this verse in the way you are, you are now implying that people are getting into heaven through works alone. If so then what's the point in Jesus death and resurrection? What level of help are we talking about anyway? I have been helped by an atheist, does this mean my atheists friend will get into the kingdom for helping me by being sorted as a sheep ? no of course not, he is condemned to hell at this point in time until he accepts Christ as his saviour.

Another point, why would genuine beleivers be puzzled as to why they are sheep, i already know I am a sheep, I do not need to ask "why am I a sheep" or when I helped people etc, certainly a non-believer would ask these things, but not a believing sheep in verses 37-40

If we now place this in its correct place in time, after the defeat of the Anti-christ during the Tribulation then it all begins to fall into place it is clear from this parable that the Brethren can only be fellow Jews and most likely other Christian believers.

As I am already a sheep I do not need judgement, or sorting, my name is already in the book of life and I will automatically enter when I die. The verses are perfectly clear that Jesus is sorting the living, not the dead. The living of those who are still on earth, people of the nations lined up before him, after he has claimed his throne in person.

So to sumarise the parable:
When Jesus is sitting on his throne in Jeruslem, he will sort the sheep from the goats. The sheep will ask, "why have you picked us as sheep? "​
Jesus will reply, "because you have helped my Brethren, that is my fellow Jews and believers during the rule of the Anti-christ, because you did this for them, you also did it for me, therefore you are blessed and will enter the kingdom with me".​
The Goats then ask" why are we Goats"? Jesus will reply, "because you failed to help my fellow brothers and believers and did condemned them, because you did this to them, you did it to me as well, therefore I in turn will condemn you to the fire pits of hell."​
You must be able to see how illogical the thinking that this parable simply means we must do good to get into heaven is, or maybe you dont, but in order not to see it you have to sit it into an awful lot of other inaccurate theology to make it stick, pulling just one little string will unravel the whole lot.

ADDITIONAL :
Just as an after thought, this is also clearly showing Gods promise still in action as outlined in Genesis 12:3, And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed

Right at the end God is rewarding people who put thier own lives on the line by helping Jews during the bad times, He is blessing them for blessing his chosen people The Jews and blessing thier nation Israel. Jesus is blessing them by rewarding them with entry into the kingdom,

Those who went against the Jews, persecuted them and attacked them are cursed, these are the goats, who will now be cursed themselves by being thrown into hell.
 
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Sep 3, 2009
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So in your theory brethren are believers who carry out Gods instructions. I notice you are cherry picking again, what a surprise. Anyway I will indulge as I am about to show you how this falls flat on its face.

NOw lets re-read the parable with this in mind, not just a single verse.

Verse 31 and 32 establish that the time of the sheep and goats is when Jesus returns as King and sits on his throne in Jerusalem and is now passing judgement on the nations and the people of those nations. Has this happened NO, this is a physical act and event and after the anti-christ has been defeated, as far as I know this has not happened yet either.
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Verse 32 and 33 tell us that Jesus will now sort the people into two groups, goats and sheep, the sheep being the ones who will enter the kingdom.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Verse 34-36, tells us why they have been chosen.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’


The Sheep now are puzzled and ask why they have been chosen and when they did these things.
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

The King, Jesus will give them the answer
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.

Equally the goats are also confused and wonder why they are goats, so we get the same reply but this time in the negative.,
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Ok so according to you TC, the brethren in this case must be fellow believers through all of time fine, but this still asks the question, who are the sheep and goats?
re-read this part but using the theory you have. I have put your interpretation in square brackets.
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these [beleivers who did my fathers work ]you did for me.

So if you are counting this as ALL believers from ALL OF TIME and so on it is illogical, the sheep and goats are clearly not Brethren, they are simply people who helped Jesus by helping his Brethren , the Brethren and people being sorted are two distinct seperate groups, not the same.

By using this verse in the way you are, you are now implying that people are getting into heaven through works alone. If so then what's the point in Jesus death and resurrection? What level of help are we talking about anyway? I have been helped by an atheist, does this mean my atheists friend will get into the kingdom for helping me by being sorted as a sheep ? no of course not, he is condemned to hell at this point in time until he accepts Christ as his saviour.

Another point, why would genuine beleivers be puzzled as to why they are sheep, i already know I am a sheep, I do not need to ask "why am I a sheep" or when I helped people etc, certainly a non-believer would ask these things, but not a believing sheep in verses 37-40

If we now place this in its correct place in time, after the defeat of the Anti-christ during the Tribulation then it all begins to fall into place it is clear from this parable that the Brethren can only be fellow Jews and most likely other Christian believers.

As I am already a sheep I do not need judgement, or sorting, my name is already in the book of life and I will automatically enter when I die. The verses are perfectly clear that Jesus is sorting the living, not the dead. The living of those who are still on earth, people of the nations lined up before him, after he has claimed his throne in person.

So to sumarise the parable:
When Jesus is sitting on his throne in Jeruslem, he will sort the sheep from the goats. The sheep will ask, "why have you picked us as sheep? "​
Jesus will reply, "because you have helped my Brethren, that is my fellow Jews and believers during the rule of the Anti-christ, because you did this for them, you also did it for me, therefore you are blessed and will enter the kingdom with me".​
The Goats then ask" why are we Goats"? Jesus will reply, "because you failed to help my fellow brothers and believers and did condemned them, because you did this to them, you did it to me as well, therefore I in turn will condemn you to the fire pits of hell."​
You must be able to see how illogical the thinking that this parable simply means we must do good to get into heaven is, or maybe you dont, but in order not to see it you have to sit it into an awful lot of other inaccurate theology to make it stick, pulling just one little string will unravel the whole lot.

ADDITIONAL :
Just as an after thought, this is also clearly showing Gods promise still in action as outlined in Genesis 12:3, And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed

Right at the end God is rewarding people who put thier own lives on the line by helping Jews during the bad times, He is blessing them for blessing his chosen people The Jews and blessing thier nation Israel. Jesus is blessing them by rewarding them with entry into the kingdom,

Those who went against the Jews, persecuted them and attacked them are cursed, these are the goats, who will now be cursed themselves by being thrown into hell.
Outstanding Ag!

Isn't it a blessing to be able to grasp the great things of God's promises to us???

T/C is I am sure a wonderful person and to him I give my respect. He works hard to prove his points but there in lies the problem. He has to work TOO hard to prove what he believes.
 
Oct 8, 2012
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Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left...41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Has anyone considered how God will judge those at the end of the great tribulation that did not take the mark of the beast and yet are still living when He establishes His milleniel reign?

Has anyone considered how God will judge those after the milleniel reign of Christ after He defeats Satan for the last time when he has been let loose for a small season to stage that last rebellion?

The verses speaks of Him as King.

It also speaks of gathering all nations. So it cannot be just all believers or those that were believers.

Then there is that question of those receiving the final judgment: of casting those in the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20th chapter below at this link:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 20&version=KJV

There are two moments when people are cast into the lake of fire: at the end of the great tribulation and after the last defeat of Satan after that small season following the milleniel reign of Christ.

My question is: when does the King when He is reigning as in when He is sitting on His throne of glory, utter that judgment given regarding the gathering of all nations in seperating the sheep from the goats?

One could say that this will be how Jesus will judge those that did not receive the mark of the beast at the end of the great tribulation when establishing His kingdom on earth.

One could say that it applies to the very end, but would jails spring up during that small season after Satan's release from the pit?

I tend to think this applies towards the end of the great tribulation on how the people without the mark treated the least of His brethrens would and should be a deciding factor on whethor they enter into the milleniel reign or not.
 
Oct 8, 2012
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Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left...41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Has anyone considered how God will judge those at the end of the great tribulation that did not take the mark of the beast and yet are still living when He establishes His milleniel reign?

Has anyone considered how God will judge those after the milleniel reign of Christ after He defeats Satan for the last time when he has been let loose for a small season to stage that last rebellion?

The verses speaks of Him as King.

It also speaks of gathering all nations. So it cannot be just all believers or those that were believers.

Then there is that question of those receiving the final judgment: of casting those in the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20th chapter below at this link:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 20&version=KJV

There are two moments when people are cast into the lake of fire: at the end of the great tribulation and after the last defeat of Satan after that small season following the milleniel reign of Christ.

My question is: when does the King when He is reigning as in when He is sitting on His throne of glory, utter that judgment given regarding the gathering of all nations in seperating the sheep from the goats?

One could say that this will be how Jesus will judge those that did not receive the mark of the beast at the end of the great tribulation when establishing His kingdom on earth.

One could say that it applies to the very end, but would jails spring up during that small season after Satan's release from the pit?

I tend to think this applies towards the end of the great tribulation on how the people without the mark treated the least of His brethrens would and should be a deciding factor on whethor they enter into the milleniel reign or not.
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Hey Ag: you said...

Right at the end God is rewarding people who put thier own lives on the line by helping Jews during the bad times, He is blessing them for blessing his chosen people The Jews and blessing thier nation Israel. Jesus is blessing them by rewarding them with entry into the kingdom,

Those who went against the Jews, persecuted them and attacked them are cursed, these are the goats, who will now be cursed themselves by being thrown into hell.[/quote]


There are some shall we say 'holes' I would like you to fill in your 'rapture theory' A few questions I would like you to answer...

First question:
Are those from the 'rapture' going to live and reign with Jesus on earth for the thousand years? Just a simple yes or no please.

Next question:
If Jesus is ruling from Jerusalem at that time, will the 'sheep' that are 'helping the Jews' have the Holy Spirit? Or will their righteousness be only because of their works...If it is only because of their works, then Jesus lied when He said no man will be justified by works. Also, if it is fruits of the Spirit, why will they be surprised at this time of reward (given they should know that the Holy Spirit is in them)

Next question..
Will the 'sheep' that are helping the Jews(as you say they will be) live through the whole thousand years or just live normal lives.

Next question:
If Jesus is in Jerusalem reigning during this time..and the sheep are surprised at the end and have to ask Him why they are being saved- Who do the sheep think is in Jerusalem? It can't be your mystery 'antichrist' guy considering he is supposedly only around for 7 years, so will Jesus be reigning from Jerusalem -but be invisible to all these people or what?

Next question:
Will Jesus go back up to Heaven at the end of the thousand years to grab all you 'rapture folks' and then come back down again to destroy those who are surrounding the camp of the saints? (since He and the saints will be down here ruling). That would be a third coming...which doesn't seem to be supported anywhere in scripture).

Next question:
If the Bible says that Jesus will send the angels to gather out the workers of iniquity and gather the tares to be burned first, who is left for Him to reign over for the thousand years.


And here is a real barn burner:

The Bible says that Jesus is going to resurrect the whole house of Israel and pour out the Holy Spirit on them
and all will see Him 'even those who pierced Him'. Why won't everyone know He is ruling?...and why will the Jews need help if they know Him. Won't Jesus help them during His earthly rule or just leave them hanging?oh and here is the best part...If they don't know it is Him, why does Satan get loosed for a little season to deceive them and the 'sheep'? After all if they don't know Him, why would they have to be deceived...

The bottom line is this. Your theories simply don't pass the litmus test when the tough questions begin to be asked. I could ask a hundred more about your 'rapture theory' that would be impossible for you to answer using just scripture.(and I ll be happy to if you want)


Sincerely,
TC[/quote]
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Zechariah 14 has some interesting insight into the Millennial reign.
Ryan, yes it does.

Compare the bold parts of these two scriptures:





Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

Deu 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:




Now read some others that talk about that day!




Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Jerusalem will be a beacon to a dark world...

Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain:
then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.



Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
Zec 8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
Zec 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.


All the 'rapture' and 'delayed 70th week of Daniel' believers are going to think it is the 'antichrist' and will deny that it is Jesus.For those who are allowed in the gate it will be a glorious day!...

Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
Isa 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Pro 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Blessings,

T/C
 
More Cherry picking and misuse with out of context of verses by TC to support more ridiculous claims. As I said you have to work terribly hard to keep the threads from unravelling, which is yet again proven by the thousand of words and countless cherry picked verses, which have now inturn raised a number of problems and issues, which also need addressing by yourself in same way. It must be very time consuming to keep this up.
All the 'rapture' and 'delayed 70th week of Daniel' believers are going to think it is the 'antichrist' and will deny that it is Jesus.For those who are allowed in the gate it will be a glorious day!...
SO TC, is Jesus physically in Jerusalem now? I am hardly going to mistake The Anti-christ for Jesus, thats a ridiculous claim to make.

As I have said many times before, why is it so important to worry about timing of rapture or if its going to happen at all? The only danger is if people bury heads in sand and think that XYZ will happen and ignore everything else and the appearance of Y and Z while they still wait for X to happen first.

I also know the sign of Christs return, I also know all the signs of the rise of False Prophet and The Beast, aka The Anti-Christ, I also know all the events yet to happen, the prophecies yet to be fulfilled as they all take place in the last 7 years on earth as we know it.

I believe in rapture, pre or mid trib, if it happens it happens, if not, then not, but so what, thats the nature of prophecy. What I object to is people teaching theory as if its 100% fact and claiming they have all the answers to everything.

If I am still alive at this point I will perfectly well know what is going on like all born again believers will do.

I am also glad we do not have to gain 100% pass on answering 2000 questions on theology in order to enter heaven, otherwise none of us would get in.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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More Cherry picking and misuse with out of context of verses by TC to support more ridiculous claims. As I said you have to work terribly hard to keep the threads from unravelling, which is yet again proven by the thousand of words and countless cherry picked verses, which have now inturn raised a number of problems and issues, which also need addressing by yourself in same way. It must be very time consuming to keep this up.


SO TC, is Jesus physically in Jerusalem now? I am hardly going to mistake The Anti-christ for Jesus, thats a ridiculous claim to make.

As I have said many times before, why is it so important to worry about timing of rapture or if its going to happen at all? The only danger is if people bury heads in sand and think that XYZ will happen and ignore everything else and the appearance of Y and Z while they still wait for X to happen first.

I also know the sign of Christs return, I also know all the signs of the rise of False Prophet and The Beast, aka The Anti-Christ, I also know all the events yet to happen, the prophecies yet to be fulfilled as they all take place in the last 7 years on earth as we know it.

I believe in rapture, pre or mid trib, if it happens it happens, if not, then not, but so what, thats the nature of prophecy. What I object to is people teaching theory as if its 100% fact and claiming they have all the answers to everything.

If I am still alive at this point I will perfectly well know what is going on like all born again believers will do.

I am also glad we do not have to gain 100% pass on answering 2000 questions on theology in order to enter heaven, otherwise none of us would get in.
Me too!
 
Jul 25, 2012
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More Cherry picking and misuse with out of context of verses by TC to support more ridiculous claims. As I said you have to work terribly hard to keep the threads from unravelling, which is yet again proven by the thousand of words and countless cherry picked verses, which have now inturn raised a number of problems and issues, which also need addressing by yourself in same way. It must be very time consuming to keep this up.


SO TC, is Jesus physically in Jerusalem now? I am hardly going to mistake The Anti-christ for Jesus, thats a ridiculous claim to make.

As I have said many times before, why is it so important to worry about timing of rapture or if its going to happen at all? The only danger is if people bury heads in sand and think that XYZ will happen and ignore everything else and the appearance of Y and Z while they still wait for X to happen first.

I also know the sign of Christs return, I also know all the signs of the rise of False Prophet and The Beast, aka The Anti-Christ, I also know all the events yet to happen, the prophecies yet to be fulfilled as they all take place in the last 7 years on earth as we know it.

I believe in rapture, pre or mid trib, if it happens it happens, if not, then not, but so what, thats the nature of prophecy. What I object to is people teaching theory as if its 100% fact and claiming they have all the answers to everything.

If I am still alive at this point I will perfectly well know what is going on like all born again believers will do.

I am also glad we do not have to gain 100% pass on answering 2000 questions on theology in order to enter heaven, otherwise none of us would get in.


Wow Ag...that was amazing you answered not even one question...For someone who "knows all these things", why were you not able to explain my questions using scripture...You are working very hard to prove a rapture theory, yet cannot seem to work out the bugs and kinks that are presented to you...wonder why that is?

I think you are realizing that you couldn't answer even one of those questions. You make it sound like there was 2000 of them lol there was what 6 or 8?
Answer at least this one for me:

Are the folks from the rapture going to live and reign with Jesus for a thousand years?

T/C
 
TC you continually to refuse to answer my questions over the months as well. Where did I ever state that I "know all things" ? Even in my last post I made statements to contrition that statement, which makes me wonder if you even read my reply. I always stand by the statement that not one person, church or denomination has everything 100% correct. Can you also admit that you are not going to be right on some things as well?

SO where am I working hard? I am not. I am just stating the obvious. The only one who is working hard at anything is yourself with a never ending flood of cherry picked verses and no let up with the theology you subscribe to.

Cleverly devised fables? now you are taking things too far.

As for your questions, I addressed that in my previous post as well. To be honest I have no idea, I dont think any of us know the finer details, we are just given a good basic account and its up to us to watch out for those events so we can identify them.

AS for who lives through the 1000 year reign well I would like to think that the people who made it through the Tribulation, the living who were raptured and those who died as martyrs will be resurrected.

If anyone tells me otherwise, so what. We will know when the time comes, that is what prophecy is about. I am not going to waste time debating it or loose sleep over it either. What I do care about are people like yourself TC who claim they are 100% correct on everything and bash out fringe theology as 100% fact, which ends up going down some very dodgy roads such as replacement theology which is wicked and evil and brands God as a liar.

As I said, it is fortunate that none of us have to pass a theology exam before entry to heaven as no one would get in.
 
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Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left...41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Has anyone considered how God will judge those at the end of the great tribulation that did not take the mark of the beast and yet are still living when He establishes His milleniel reign?

Has anyone considered how God will judge those after the milleniel reign of Christ after He defeats Satan for the last time when he has been let loose for a small season to stage that last rebellion?

The verses speaks of Him as King.

It also speaks of gathering all nations. So it cannot be just all believers or those that were believers.

Then there is that question of those receiving the final judgment: of casting those in the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20th chapter below at this link:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 20&version=KJV

There are two moments when people are cast into the lake of fire: at the end of the great tribulation and after the last defeat of Satan after that small season following the milleniel reign of Christ.

My question is: when does the King when He is reigning as in when He is sitting on His throne of glory, utter that judgment given regarding the gathering of all nations in seperating the sheep from the goats?

One could say that this will be how Jesus will judge those that did not receive the mark of the beast at the end of the great tribulation when establishing His kingdom on earth.

One could say that it applies to the very end, but would jails spring up during that small season after Satan's release from the pit?

I tend to think this applies towards the end of the great tribulation on how the people without the mark treated the least of His brethrens would and should be a deciding factor on whethor they enter into the milleniel reign or not.

I believe that your question is........
'Has anyone considered how God will judge those at the end of the great tribulation that did not take the mark of the beast and yet are still living when He establishes His milleniel reign?'

Rev. 20:4
ESV
"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Dan. 7:27
ESV
"Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'

The ones who come to Christ during the Tribulation and do not take the Mark of the Beast will be judged exactly as everyone else is judged. By the shed blood of Messiah Jesus. Are they under the blood or not?
 
Jul 25, 2012
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I believe that your question is........
'Has anyone considered how God will judge those at the end of the great tribulation that did not take the mark of the beast and yet are still living when He establishes His milleniel reign?'

Rev. 20:4
ESV
"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Dan. 7:27
ESV
"Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'

The ones who come to Christ during the Tribulation and do not take the Mark of the Beast will be judged exactly as everyone else is judged. By the shed blood of Messiah Jesus. Are they under the blood or not?

Greetings Major,

It appears to me that those who overcome the 'mark of the Beast' reign with Him during the thousand years. What is your perspective from a rapture believers standpoint. Does the rapture group live and reign with Him for the thousand years? and which of the two groups is the rapture group( those who lost their heads or those who overcame the mark) since they are the only two groups that are in the first Resurrection...


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Another interesting question to ask is why those who went through 'great tribulation'( presumably because they didn't get raptured) still get to reign with Him, but the other believers have to wait until the final resurrection to receive their reward or punishment.


What is your take...

T/C
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Greetings Major,

It appears to me that those who overcome the 'mark of the Beast' reign with Him during the thousand years. What is your perspective from a rapture believers standpoint. Does the rapture group live and reign with Him for the thousand years? and which of the two groups is the rapture group( those who lost their heads or those who overcame the mark) since they are the only two groups that are in the first Resurrection...


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Another interesting question to ask is why those who went through 'great tribulation'( presumably because they didn't get raptured) still get to reign with Him, but the other believers have to wait until the final resurrection to receive their reward or punishment.


What is your take...

T/C
Rev. 20:4 is your answer and one I have accepted. Notice the phrase............
"They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Those are the Tribulation myters T/C.

You said.......
"which of the two groups is the rapture group( those who lost their heads or those who overcame the mark) since they are the only two groups that are in the first Resurrection...

Neither, see above answer. The raptured are not killed but are given glorified bodies at the twinkling of the eye.
They ARE NOT BEHEADED NEITHER ARE THEY EXPOSED TO THE MARK OF THE BEAST.

There is an event I encourage you to study called The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I believe you will find your answer there.


Those that go through the Tribulation do so by choice my friend!
They were not included in the Rapture because they were not saved. The Rapture is the removal of believers.
 
Jul 25, 2012
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Rev. 20:4 is your answer and one I have accepted. Notice the phrase............
"They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Those are the Tribulation myters T/C.

You said.......
"which of the two groups is the rapture group( those who lost their heads or those who overcame the mark) since they are the only two groups that are in the first Resurrection...

Neither, see above answer. The raptured are not killed but are given glorified bodies at the twinkling of the eye.
They ARE NOT BEHEADED NEITHER ARE THEY EXPOSED TO THE MARK OF THE BEAST.

There is an event I encourage you to study called The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I believe you will find your answer there.


Those that go through the Tribulation do so by choice my friend!
They were not included in the Rapture because they were not saved. The Rapture is the removal of believers.

Ok, so it sounds like you believe rapture believers won't be living and reigning with Him then. What will they be doing for the thousand years while the saints are with Him on earth? Remember, the saints return with Him to judge and rule:


Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Psa 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psa 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
Psa 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?


Not all Christians are saints:

Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


The Saints make a sacrifice of themselves for the cause of the kingdom)


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.


Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.


As for your quip about me 'studying the marriage'-Perhaps you should do the same friend:


Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


When the last saint is in Heaven, Jesus will return with them and New Jerusalem to commence the marriage. Those who are prepared for the day of His return will be invited in:

Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The last verse tells all: watch and prepare because you do not know when He is going to return. If you are going to be raptured why would you have to be ready for His return? And now look at when New Jerusalem is brought down:

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.


Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The saints are with Him by reason of sacrifice..and those believers who are on earth when He returns will be made fellowcitizens:

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Prepare your heart and make sure you have oil in your lamp...the Holy Spirit. If grace has done a work in your heart, you have that seal and can test yourself to see if you are truly in the faith.

Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He is coming here and bringing New Jerusalem with Him. The catching away doesn't happen until the last trumpet- which happens after the thousand years are up. I don't know about you, but I plan on entering in the gate of New Jerusalem as a wise virgin who prepared for her husband. I hope you are standing next to me at that glorious day with oil in your lamp my friend.

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Pro 12:7 The wicked are overthrown, and are not: but the house of the righteous shall stand.

Psa 122:1 A Song of degrees of David. I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
Psa 122:2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
Zec 8:4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
Zec 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.
Zec 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
Zec 8:8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Will you be allowed in the gate that day? If you have Grace you will...

Sincerely,
T/C
 
Jul 22, 2010
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Problem with that is that...

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You might want to reconsider...If Jesus (the Holy Spirit) lives within you, you wont lie. That is why you need the power of God. You cant tell me that a person with the Holy Spirit is still going to be a liar and get into heaven...They are clearly going to the lake of fire. Remember, if you are in Christ...you are made new.

And

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So tell me how those who commit such acts and teach men to do so are still going to get into the kingdom, when scripture clearly says they won't...Here is your answer...repentance during judgment:

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

During the Lords reign, He will chastise and rebuke those He loves. Those that don't repent during that time will be cast away,

The only ones who don't make it are those who deny Him until the end. Better to be prepared in your heart and repent now, rather than wait and be chastised and beaten! Have you overcome the world?


The word legalism should be discarded...The Bible is clear about obeying the Lord...

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.



2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


If you are still living a worldly lifestyle, you are not in Him...


1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

The Holy Ghost is our seal...

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

If you don't obey the word of God, you don't get that seal...


Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

If you don't have the Holy Spirit, you are not one of His:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


Many will try to call Him Lord and will not be let in the gate:

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:



If you are still living for the cares of this world and the desires of your flesh rather than taking care of the poor and the sick and the widows and the afflicted of the world, you are not one of His.

Those that are of the flesh cannot please God:

om 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Judgment day is coming and there is not going to be a rapture folks...He will separate the sheep from the goats and allow those into the Kingdom that did His will through His Spirit...Don't think for a minute that you can live for this life and not prepare for the one to come...

T/C
Red colour emphasis added to signify danger.
Oh boy! I have avoided this thread because the posts are so long they become robbers of one's time......think about it.
But honestly T/C your logic is A.W.O.L. Reading your post/s I see a legalism that belongs with extremist groups. I'm thinking Pharisee, I'm even thinking Taliban. Consider the plight of two people by your expressed logic.
Person # 1 is Christian , but as Paul clearly identifies is still mortal and living in a body of corruption. That one lies occasionally......I understand you are suggesting that the eternal BBQ is waiting patiently for him.
Person #2 is also a (maybe nominal) Christian and lies upward of twenty times a day. That one tells the truth once or twice. By your logic as I understand it to flow, person #2 gets to heaven instead of person #1. Why?? because if you want to brand the occasional fibber as a LIAR, a la Rev 21:8. by the same logic the occasional truth teller must be branded as TRUTHFUL But see, I could spend valuable time posting an onerous number of scripture verses, but you have demonstrated that you have a concordance so you can do your own home work. The scriptures are clear enough, but your position is not (in many cases) and not supported by scripture. There are such things as Grace, Forensic Justification, imputed Righteousness; these things are missing or at least they appear to be missing from your postings, hence from your understanding.

We all sin......yes even you! If you deny this truth then either you are a liar or you are the Lord in disguise, and we have all missed the second coming:(
If you are indeed a sinner then you had better take a spoon full of your own advise and repent don't you think?
 
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Jul 25, 2012
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Hi Calvin,

I can handle being called a Pharisee...but eh...Taliban lol! That is a first! I am guessing that is code for muslim'? If so let me clarify right now. JESUS CHRIST is the ONLY way to the Father. No other way will get you there. Not works, not money, nothing but the Holy Spirit. Having said that...I am a bit confused about your statement:

"Person # 1 is Christian , but as Paul clearly identifies is still mortal and living in a body of corruption. That one lies occasionally......I understand you are suggesting that the eternal BBQ is waiting patiently for him.
Person #2 is also a (maybe nominal) Christian and lies upward of twenty times a day. That one tells the truth once or twice. By your logic as I understand it to flow, person #2 gets to heaven instead of person #1. Why?? because if you want to brand the occasional fibber as a LIAR, a la Rev 21:8. by the same logic the occasional truth teller must be branded as TRUTHFUL"

I don't think that I stated anything about liar number 2 getting into Heaven over liar number 1...What I said was this: If Jesus is your Lord...He is living within you, you will not be a liar. Those who have Him as Lord have overcome their flesh and live by the Spirit. Those who have not made this transformation are still carnal and will die:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Now for the second part...am I still a sinner? If I live to the flesh yes. The flesh will always sin and betray us. There is no way around that. That is why we must be born again and live by the Spirit. We can do all things through Christ...If you don't believe in that power,that is your own deal. I know that if I make any provision for the flesh or trust it in any way I will sin. That is a given...so I seek treasure from above and spiritual gifts rather than feeding my flesh. Take that for what you will....

Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Pro 13:21 Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repayed.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.


Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


I will tell you that I am a sinner and chief of it just as Paul. But by the power of the Holy Spirit I am able to live by Him and not by the flesh anymore:

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

If I live to the flesh I will die:

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

The question is...do you really believe this stuff? If you do then you know where I am coming from. If you don't believe there is a spiritual transformation that happens in you then you don't believe in the power of God to save.

You must truly be born again Grace is that process and given freely to those who ask for it. If Grace is in your heart, it WILL be reflected in your heart and life.

Blessings,
T/C
 
Jul 22, 2010
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T/C I have not and will not read your post through. When I want to read the Bible, I do not need the Internet to do so.
I did not call you a pharisee or Taliban or a muslim. If you can not correctly understand my post, there are two courses of action you might want to consider taking.
1. Do not respond to it, since you're not understanding it. Start by looking up the idea of a simile; that might help.
2.Spend several weeks seeking to gain some understanding.

Are you a sinner, or are you a liar? 1John 1:8
Simple question not requiring a 10 page answer
 
Jul 25, 2012
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T/C I have not and will not read your post through. When I want to read the Bible, I do not need the Internet to do so.
I did not call you a pharisee or Taliban or a muslim. If you can not correctly understand my post, there are two courses of action you might want to consider taking.
1. Do not respond to it, since you're not understanding it. Start by looking up the idea of a simile; that might help.
2.Spend several weeks seeking to gain some understanding.

Are you a sinner, or are you a liar? 1John 1:8
Simple question not requiring a 10 page answer
Hee Hee...Calvin, lighten up man. I gave you a few scriptures about what I believe. If you don't want to take the time to read them, I understand.

However, I would like to pose a question to you...Are you born of God?

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So....Are you born of God? Maybe now you will take the time to go read my post and take the time to understand where I am coming from on this question...But then again, maybe you won't. It requires more than a simple yes or no. I answered yes when I approached the throne of Grace for a new heart. He took it from there.

Are you born of God?

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Sincerely,

T/C