Forgiveness - mercy and grace

[aha]

What about first getting the mote out of your own eye first?
Another words if you are going to go point a fault out in some one else then you better have your life together with no faults of your own.

The problem with using these go confront scriptures is that they are not stand alone scriptures.

We must learn to rightly divide scriptures and we do that with Other Scriptures.
Now Research the traits of Love. That is what we are commanded in the new Testament to Love one another as He has loved us.

Now love keeps no record of wrongs and is not easily offended. So if you go confront others everyone you "feel offended" then you violated the law of Love.

Not to mention ......what covenant is this teaching under? Was Jesus alive and not yet gone to the cross?

Look at your scripture example in Mark 11:25.....
If you forgive then God will forgive.....
That cuts out Jesus and what He did on the cross.

All I am saying is......when we take what we read in the bible in a particular passage and try to make a case out of it without bringing in more scriptures. ....we fall into error and have no ground to stand on.

Blessings

Yes, I was about to expound on that..... in fact: I will give an example case: that is not necessarily there is MOTE to clean up! more on failed expectations!

Not a real personal example, I just made this up.


Example:
Person A offered a business proposition to Person B.
Person A presented it, honestly, with good intention, that the business will prosper.
Person B was convinced that a good investment was made.
then: the business failed.
Person B have a difficult time to forgive Person A on the failed business, lost investment.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Yes, I was about to expound on that..... in fact: I will give an example case: that is not necessarily there is MOTE to clean up! more on failed expectations!

Not a real personal example, I just made this up.


Example:
Person A offered a business proposition to Person B.
Person A presented it, honestly, with good intention, that the business will prosper.
Person B was convinced that a good investment was made.
then: the business failed.
Person B have a difficult time to forgive Person B on the failed business, lost investment.

Person B has heart issues. His heart is full of aught and resentment and therefore lacking Love which if left undealt with.....will destroy them.

Blessings and should we pray for Mr B? ; )

 

[Lanolin]

I know a lot of divorcees and people separated who cannot go back with their spouse because they have been abandoned and left, but also on the other hand wives who the husband been unfaithful, how can the wife accept that ithe husband is till with the other party. But also there are many who have unforgiveness in their hearts to that person, its not for me to judge them they need God to deal with it, not me. These women draw close to the Lord because guess what Jesus knew what it was to be betrayed so he understood.

If you both vow to love someone to death do you part, but then one goes off with someone else well, sorry that person who broke the vow was lying. You better off without them. Why spend the rest of your life being bitter about them?

Did Jesus have a heart issue with Judas? No he actually knew beforehand that Judas was going to betray him, so he was never bitter about this betrayal. I think a lot of women willingly deceive themselves about who they marry and dont guard their heart on this matter. Guarding ones heart is not the same as hardening ones heart. The one whos heart is hard is the betrayer, not the one who has been betrayed.

 

[Lanolin]

Person B has heart issues. His heart is full of aught and resentment and therefore lacking Love which if left undealt with.....will destroy them.

Blessings and should we pray for Mr B? ; )

I think caveat emptor with person B applies more than forgivness. Lol. If you investing in a business there is always a risk. If a person says its a sure thing be wary when things are too good to be true.

Unless its our Fathers business of course, that one you cannot lose because it comes with blessed assurance!

 

[Lanolin]

The christian life involves suffering.

When Paul suffers because of a thorn in his side, a messenger from Satan to buffet him, he asks God to remove this thorn three times but God doesnt and instead says my grace is sufficent for thee.

If we suffer from being sinned against, we will have grace to endure this. We have God! But those who sin will self-destruct because their end is according to their works, they dont have God, so, who is the victor here the one who has God or the one without? Obviously the one with God!

Paul also said he was going to boast of his infirmties, like he was actually boasting of how many times hed been beaten, flogged and persecuted, in shipwrecks, with perils, hungry, thirsty etc etc. This is radical why, because you would think he would rather be boasting of how he had a pedigree, happy marriage, good comfortable life, success, money, fame, high status, gourmet food etc. nope! He counts that all as dung because he knows the Lord.

So if we suffer as christians just count it all joy. Note..we suffer as christians not suffer for no reason. Satan causes great sufferings because he hates that we know God! When you look at it from this perspective it is not against YOU personally Satan trying to get at Gods creation. But he will not. He cannot divert Gods purposes especially when we cooperate with God and are in the centre of his will. His grace empowers us.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I know a lot of divorcees and people separated who cannot go back with their spouse because they have been abandoned and left, but also on the other hand wives who the husband been unfaithful, how can the wife accept that ithe husband is till with the other party.

That's my point. No offense but you know nothing about this and you are accessing this from what you think.

It's not cut and dry and if one wants the Father's help then they will have to do things His Way and most times it goes against common sense.

Until you have gone through this, you have no idea what it's like.

If you both vow to love someone to death do you part, but then one goes off with someone else well, sorry that person who broke the vow was lying. You better off without them. Why spend the rest of your life being bitter about them?

This is what I mean. This is how you see this but far to many times it's NOT how the Father will desire to do things.

Did Jesus have a heart issue with Judas?

It had to go that way. Prophecy had been spoken over it long ago.

Blessings

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

If we suffer from being sinned against, we will have grace to endure this. We have God! But those who sin will self-destruct because their end is according to their works, they dont have God, so, who is the victor here the one who has God or the one without? Obviously the one with God!

If a born again believer sins, they are not without God.

Grace is there for All but we must choose to walk in it. We must choose to endure it but this is not the same as putting up with.

Paul also said he was going to boast of his infirmties, like he was actually boasting of how many times hed been beaten, flogged and persecuted, in shipwrecks, with perils, hungry, thirsty etc etc. This is radical why, because you would think he would rather be boasting of how he had a pedigree, happy marriage, good comfortable life, success, money, fame, high status, gourmet food etc. nope! He counts that all as dung because he knows the Lord.

You might want to reread this and see what is really being said. I do believe you have things a tad mixed up.

First part Paul boasting in context....

Paul was simply trying to make a point to a particular group of people. That is it and Notice how he starts.....

17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
Again trying to make a point to these particular people.........

Now the second part. Counting it all a loss in context. ....

Again Paul was making a point to a particular group of people

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel,of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul is comparing his education and self worth or what he thought he knew to the Knowledge of Christ.

Understand it like this.....his former Religious Understanding is counted as worthless dung compared to the knowledge of Christ.

We must be very careful how we pick and choose various bits of Scripture and then use them in a natural way that seems right.

Blessings

 

[Lanolin]

Ok. FCJ I'm not really talking about a born again believer sinning. Thats a bit different..as we hold them to a higher standard I guess cos we know their heart will convict them...well the holy spirit in them will be grieved.

Just sinners in general...their conscience will be pricked although says in the Bible that some peoples consicences are burned out or over. So it doesnt actually function.

FCJ am not offended just experience with dealing with a lot of fallout from broken homes, not just the couples but their children whove also been damaged. I havent gone through something like that myself but enough children have gone through their parents splitting to share with me. And we cant really do anything about that. I.e the children cant just say to their parents get back together, sort it out and act like the adults you are meant to be.

 

[Lanolin]

FCJ Sometimes I dont know if you actually read my posts properly. i am saying the same kind of things you are saying except somehow you make them out to mean something completley different.

I didnt say we have to merely put up with suffering. I explained grace is given for us to endure suffering.

 

[Lanolin]

Another thing I am learning about difference between mercy and grace.

mercy is forgiveness for the sinner.
grace is forgiveness for the believer.

Mercy can let go of wrongs and forget about them. Mercy gives another chance. Mercy is kindness.
grace not only lets go of wrongs it enables us to be fully reconciled with the one who forgives.

Mercy is unfailing love
grace is also unfailing love that is present amongst us.

Many a time you can be kind anyway because there is nothing to forgive. The person you might have thought did wrong did not do it to you deliberately, they did it out of ignorance. I will give you an example. A baby cries right? A baby is not deliberately depriving you of sleep. You cannot punish a baby for merely crying just because its disturbing you. You go and soothe them.

Is this 'underserved favour' or 'unmerited favour' as Ive heard some people describe grace and mercy? When you think about it, thats ridiculous. The love we give to others is not a grudging thing we bestow because we think they dont deserve it becase people are not as intelligent as we think we are. Does God actually not love His creation? He already knows we are weak! He actually made us weak. None of us can ever fully know as much as God knows. Because its pretty obvious that we are not God and cannot do all the things He can do and know everything He does.

What is it then, its pure LOVE.
When Jesus was on the cross, guess what he said 'father forgive them for they know not what they do' Jesus had such a love for people that even when he was on the cross he was asking his Father to pardon the people that put him there. Because they did it out of ignorance. If they truly knew they were crucifying the Messiah, Gods only begotten son, they would not do it.

Gods judgement and His wrath is reserved for people who deliberatey do wrong with full knowledge of what they are doing because they are evil and wicked. And ultimately this is for the satan who is influencing those people. GOd actually doesnt want any of us to go to hell, its actually meant for satan and his demons, not us humans who are made in His image. This is why He has mercy and grace for us. We already have obtained His mercy, (if we are still alive to draw breath) but we need to get hold of grace. Which is available to us through Jesus Christ.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

mercy is forgiveness for the sinner.
grace is forgiveness for the believer.

That's not quite true.
Mercy and Grace is for both.
If an unbeliever cuts in front of you in line after you have been standing there for 30 minutes - your flesh wants to tell them no way but GRACE just smiles and praises God .

Now if a Christian finds out their spouse was having an affair with another believer.....it would be MERCY that kept the brother alive and Grace that would eventually be able to forgive.

Is this 'underserved favour' or 'unmerited favour' as Ive heard some people describe grace and mercy? When you think about it, thats ridiculous.

What's Ridiculous is tearing apart something one simply does not understand.

Blessingd

 

[Siloam]

mercy is forgiveness for the sinner.
grace is forgiveness for the believer

Believers ARE sinners that have been saved by grace ( and not of their own ) It is the gift of God.

Of course, from God's standpoint it is not a free gift since it was bought by Christs blood!

 

[Siloam]

Mercy is an aspect of grace, but grace encompases so much more.

Mercy is one possible outcome of judgement , and it is an aspect of grace.

But grace encompases so much more including much that has little to do with our iniquity.

 

[Siloam]

Is this 'underserved favour' or 'unmerited favour' as Ive heard some people describe grace and mercy? When you think about it, thats ridiculous. The love we give to others is not a grudging thing we bestow because we think they dont deserve it becase people are not as intelligent as we think we are. Does God actually not love His creation? He already knows we are weak! He actually made us weak. None of us can ever fully know as much as God knows. Because its pretty obvious that we are not God and cannot do all the things He can do and know everything He does.

You seem to continue to misunderstand what is meant by unmerited or undeserved.

We are not saying that our evilness is why grace is bestowed. Unmerited is meant in the sense that our goodness (or lack there-of) is not an issue concerning whether God's Grace is given. Not at all. It is God's nature to provide for His creation. There is nothing that we must (or can) do to change Gods nature, including His grace.

As I tried to indicate before, the favor part of grace as unmerited favor includes His providence, providing what is needed, to promote our well-being, including physical existence (creation) physical sustainment (our daily needs) and, most importantly, our ability to have a relationship with Him. Mercy is a way of restoring that relationship when we have sinned. It is still unmerited, and it is still Gods bestowing favor upon us, so mercy qualifies on both parts of unmerited favor.

When our sin gets in the way, grace for the believer manifests itself in mercy (God does not to condemn us). Here, we have an obligation to confess and receive confirmation of that grace within our life, since otherwise, our fellowship with Him would not be restored (which was the aim of grace). If the believer continues to deny or disregard this necessity, he will still receive mercy at the Judgement Seat, but he will not grow closer to Christ in the meantime.

For the unbeliever, grace and mercy is potentially available, but they must do their part in accepting that mercy by accepting Christ and His payment. Unless they do this, the relationship with Christ, which is the 'goal of grace' would not result, so until Christ is accepted, grace is unrealized in the unbeliever.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Another Good Definition For Grace:
God's Overwhelming Desire To Treat Us As If Sin Never Happened!!!

Blessings

 

[Lanolin]

I heard another definition.
GOds Riches At Christ's Expense.

I dont really understand the unmerited or undeserved favour definition. I guess its a bit technical for me. i dont find that in the Bible, because in the Bible Grace is always referred to as a GIFT of God. It always described that way and its easy for me to think of it in that way. I never hear of people saying 'I received an unmerited favour today'. Or 'I'm here because of the unmerited favour of God'

A gift is given because the giver wants to give (to whomever He pleases). If people want to say its 'unmerited favour' or 'undeserved' I guess they can see it that way, but isnt it better to think of what God gives grace as a free gift. And he gives to those who have not earned it, because otherwise, if we had to pay for it, it wouldnt be a gift!

All we need to do is thank Him for this gift.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I heard another definition.
GOds Riches At Christ's Expense.

I dont really understand the unmerited or undeserved favour definition. I guess its a bit technical for me. i dont find that in the Bible, because in the Bible Grace is always referred to as a GIFT of God. It always described that way and its easy for me to think of it in that way. I never hear of people saying 'I received an unmerited favour today'. Or 'I'm here because of the unmerited favour of God'

A gift is given because the giver wants to give (to whomever He pleases). If people want to say its 'unmerited favour' or 'undeserved' I guess they can see it that way, but isnt it better to think of what God gives grace as a free gift. And he gives to those who have not earned it, because otherwise, if we had to pay for it, it wouldnt be a gift!

All we need to do is thank Him for this gift.

That's it. A gift is something given that is not earned.
Grace is a gift unearned. Nothing we can do to deserve it. It's the Favor of God towards us.

 

[Lanolin]

Everyone loves gifts right? They are free, and we didnt do anything to earn them. Gifts are given because someone loves us.

Should be a forGIFT.

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

I have been reading about forgiveness lately. A lot of people are confused about what forgiveness means. When you forgive someone does that mean you are always completely reconciled with them? What if they are unrepentant? For example, if someone beats you up, you would forgive them if they were genuinely convicted and sorry, asking your forgivness and assuring you they wont do it again. But would that mean you necessarily be friends with them?

Is forgiveness letting go of records of wrongs, not holding a grudge, but would it be wise to engage with someone who continues to be harmful and abusive.
If so, how is that forgiveness?

So this is where I believe mercy and grace come in. Mercy and grace are similar, but there is a difference. They are two kinds of forgiveness.

Grace involves a change of heart. Grace is what Jesus gives us, for its His presence that works in our lives. Grace never gives a licence to sin, it gives us time to make it right.
Mercy I believe, is when God spares us the consequences of our actions, but it does not necessarily mean reconciliation. Mercy is what Our Father gives us, it can get us to a point where grace can begin, it can let go of whatever we or others did wrong, but we cant live in mercy all the time. Mercy allows us to move on, perhaps, wheras grace enables us to stay there.

What are your thoughts on mercy, grace, and forgiveness? What does scripture say?

Forgiving sets us free. I know it's hard sometimes to forgive a person who hurts us, but it release so much freedom in us. It heals us.
We also need to forgive ourselves. Sometimes we carry so much guilt and forgiving ourselves is equally important.

 

[CoffeeDrinker]

Thanks for responses, I just want to touch on something, that there is an unforgiveable sin that Jesus mentioned that is not forgiven in this world or the next. And that is blasphemy of the holy spirit.

Its not just unbelief, its like absolute refusal to believe and insulting to the holy spirit how do you know if someone has crossed the line to where they just cannot be forgiven?

With exes, well thats a hard one, literally Jesus said divorce only happened because peoples hearts were hard, I dont know if on account of which party, as each divorce case is different, but only thing can offer is, if you ex died would you go to their funeral? Are they still an active parent to your children you have together? If so, maybe they have some redeeming qualities that you arent aware of. I think in some cases where the ex is abusive, then its not only danger to the spouse but also to the children, and this is where I dont quite understand why people get restraining orders for themselves but not for children. If a spouse abuses their partner, would they not be even more in danger of harming their children. Especially if the children are left on their own with the abusive partner?

Unfortunately, the legal system has a lot to do with your questions when children are involved. It's not always easy to keep a parent from their child.
I know women in abusive situations who stay with their spouse because they do not them alone with their children.

I would go to my ex-husbands funeral. We were married almost 30 years. He was mean and abusive to me almost the entire time. I do not hate him and I completely forgive him.