FYI: Word of Faith Statement of Faith

[Major]

David was recounting the events of the Exodus, so I'll say it was for travel. I'll stick to the word of God when it says no one was feeble, no one was feeble (aka weak). Nope, I never heard that.

It would be worth your while to look into it. It will change the whole perspective.

Yes it was for travel which is my point. It was not that they were prosperous but fit to leave. If you will remember they had been hard pressed to make bricks and to finish the work that had begun. Pharoh had been making everything physical for them.

I always stick with the Word of God. I don't know anything else.

 

[Major]

It still separates salvation from receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit...

I do not think so. In fact it negates it altogether my brother. It is not WHEN but DID you!!! Paul suspected that something was not right hence his investigation and Since that didn't get saved they could not have received the Holy Spirit.

That is the whole point!

 

[Juk]

Not at all. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is something apart from what happens at salvation. Read the word and discover for yourself how Holy Spirit came upon believers and anointed them with His fullness.

Please provide some Scripture to back up your claim.

 

[Major]

David was recounting the events of the Exodus, so I'll say it was for travel. I'll stick to the word of God when it says no one was feeble, no one was feeble (aka weak). Nope, I never heard that.

IF there were no feeble ones and no sick then who were the people that the Amalekite's killed?

Deut. 25:18.......
"how he met thee on the way and smote the hindmost of thee, even all who were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God."

They began by "insidiously attacking the rear of the Hebrew army, when it was exhausted and weary".

 

[Euphemia]

I arrived at this statement through talking to people who are a part of the movement, through preachers who are part of it, and through research (books) on the topic. I believe that the word of faith movement has many holes in it, and there is a lot of harm in it, along with the new apostolic reformation movement, charismatic movement and prosperity movement. Often, all of these are linked together.

The harm that I see regularly is the viewpoint that the Word of Faith kind of hope in Jesus Christ and His living and powerful word is harmful. It is not. NOW, perhaps the detractors are

1. Afraid of the baptism of the Holy Spirit
2. Do not know about the baptism of the Holy Spirit
3. Influenced by people who consistently denigrate such churches
4. Referring to people who claim to be WoF, but are off on a tangent of telling their people that they need to command financial and material prosperity from God and to go out on a limb expecting perfect healing, abandoning lifesaving medical help. Now that is cultish.

 

[Euphemia]

Please provide some Scripture to back up your claim.

Read Acts and the many times that believers, starting with the 120 disciples in the Upper Room received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Read of Cornelius in Acts 10, who received it after faith and before being water baptized.

Read Acts 8:14---extremely clear---believers experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God’s message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Read Acts 19:5-7---12 more believers are baptized in the Spirit:
5As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in other tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

 

[Euphemia]

To say that "Read the word and discover for yourself" is a very veiled attempt at that thing we talked about....."Elitism".
That is beneath you my sister and once again I encourage you to come above that kind of thing. It never speak well of a believer.
We will leave this as it is.....we are in disagreement. There is no need to pass it back and forth.

No, it isn't anything near elitism.

 

[Euphemia]

I do not believe that once a person is saved he lives a life on earth without sin. The Bible doesn't teach any such doctrine and in fact it teaches the very opposite. But that really is not the issue is my sister????

Of course it isn't the issue. I don't even remotely hold to that.

The issue of sinless perfection is actually rooted in the belief that SOME believers are better than others and they get a 2nd blessing or filling of the Holy Spirit. There is no hierarchy of saints. All who belong to Christ by faith are saints, and none of us are more “saintly” than our Christian brothers and sisters. The apostle Paul, who is no more of a saint than the most obscure Christian, begins his first letter to the Corinthian church by declaring that they were “sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 1:2).

So now Paul is elite, above other saints in his own hierarchical place?

You are decrying hierarchy and elitism where no one is saying a single word about it.

The traditional Christian faiths argue that Christians are positionally sanctified since we're indwelt with the Holy Spirit at salvation, but we won't be experientially sanctified (made perfect) until we get to heaven. WHY???????
Because we live in a body prone to sin which is what Paul explained in Romans 7.

Yep.

On the other hand, many charismatics believe that Christians can receive a "second blessing" whereby they receive the "filling" of the Spirit at some point following salvation at which they reach sinless perfection. That Euphemia is the position from which you are coming from.

I arrive there through knowing the word of God and believing every single word of it, being VERY careful not to displease the Lord with unbelief which He views as evil.

Hebrews 3:12
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God

However, in all of our back and forth I have yet to see how you can explain 1 John 1:8 ............
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

You then said........"No one in scripture who is born again is ever referred to as a sinner".

That is not true. Paul called himself a SINNER my sister.

Paul struggled with SIN in his everyday life. In Romans 7:15, he says, "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."

Verse 18 goes on to say, "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."

Obviously, Paul was a Christian, and he sinned as a Christian. In fact, verse 19 says, "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-- this I keep on doing." Not only did Paul SIN, but he kept on sinning. He continued to SIN, which is contrary to what you are proposing.

I just knew you would mention Paul's letter. However Paul was using the present tense, which is a literary device for emphasis that we do not use today in English, and was NOT referring to himself as a sinner in the present.

So then who is correct, the Bible or YOU????

The word of God is always correct, and I understand Paul. No born again person is anything other than a saint because of the new man they have become, miraculously through faith in Jesus Christ and by the regenerating power of the blood of Jesus on that person's life, making all things new![/quote]

 

[Juk]

Read Acts and the many times that believers, starting with the 120 disciples in the Upper Room received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Read of Cornelius in Acts 10, who received it after faith and before being water baptized.

Read Acts 8:14---extremely clear---believers experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God’s message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Read Acts 19:5-7---12 more believers are baptized in the Spirit:
5As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in other tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

Do you believe that this is necessary for salvation? Actually, it is.
Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

But I think that this was just for that time period. I know that I have the Holy Spirit but I didn't have any special experience.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I KNOW so Jim! I am a forgiven sinner and now am a saint of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am exactly like Paul in Romans 7 and so is everyone else. The difference between me and you is that I admit it.

The Old nature of sin can not be destroyed Jim. I agree that we are not SIN MINDED and we as Christians are not dominated by sin UNLESS we allow it. That however is not the issue is it????

Brother Major,
Please tell me why it is needed to admit or SPEAK YOU ARE A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE ?
Why do you feel you must still be connected to that old nature like this ?\
This is the issue.......

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

@Fish Catcher Jim

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I just created these for you [emoji1]

Ugh! I can't get the lines of the dorsal and the ventral fins to line up the way they show before it posts.

It took me 2 days of trying things before I could get my signature cross to line up.
I used ............ to keep lines in place and colored the ........white. Kind of like artistic white out. OBTW Thank YOU

 

[Mykuhl]

It took me 2 days of trying things before I could get my signature cross to line up.
I used ............ to keep lines in place and colored the ........white. Kind of like artistic white out. OBTW Thank YOU

Ahhh ok.
And you're welcome!

 

[Euphemia]

Do you believe that this is necessary for salvation? Actually, it is.
Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

But I think that this was just for that time period. I know that I have the Holy Spirit but I didn't have any special experience.

You are wrong, then, dear Juk, because the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not required for salvation. Romans 8:9 is talking about the fact that we as Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit in us from the moment of faith, forever...but the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a usually subsequent anointing that we can avail ourselves of.

So, please provide scripture that tells us that being baptized in the Holy Spirit is for unbelievers to be saved.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I KNOW so Jim! I am a forgiven sinner and now am a saint of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am exactly like Paul in Romans 7 and so is everyone else. The difference between me and you is that I admit it.

The Old nature of sin can not be destroyed Jim. I agree that we are not SIN MINDED and we as Christians are not dominated by sin UNLESS we allow it. That however is not the issue is it????

Greetings Major,
I KNOW so Jim! I am a forgiven sinner and now am a saint of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am exactly like Paul in Romans 7 and so is everyone else. The difference between me and you is that I admit it.
Major speaking of Paul it would seem that he does not know this either.
Do you remember Paul saying He has wronged no man ? Now then if he was sin minded then he would remember his past as saul but Paul knew who he was in Christ and that is the fact that he like us all have been delivered from sin.

Now then God delivers the drug adic from drugs....is he still a drug adic saved from drugs ? No brother He is a new man in Christ and has no drug issues. Paul had a hold of this so deep within his being that I doubt he even remembered saul as it was paul who spent time trying to teach Christians to forget the past for it is all useless garbage compared to Christ.

You have a point there that this is the difference between us. I do not admit or claim or speak or agree with in a manner of saying I am anything that God delivered me from not to mention the cross and the blood or the cost paid to seperate us from sin. No Brother I wont ever claim to be a sinner.

The Old nature of sin can not be destroyed Jim. I agree that we are not SIN MINDED and we as Christians are not dominated by sin UNLESS we allow it. That however is not the issue is it????

Major the old sin nature can not only be destroyed but it is a must in order to fulfill Gods purpose in us here on this earth. If the sin nature is not destroyed then you will be lead by this sin nature but being born again by incorruptible seed the ever living word of God we have been delivered from sin. This is not just as a clensing but delivered FROM THE CONTROL of sin Brother........It has no more hold over us UNLESS WE GIVE IT A PLACE IN OUR LIVES.

This does not say we miss the mark now and again but if we do sin then we do have Christ Blood covering us and cling unto Gods grace and confess this sin and not only be forgiven of it but be clensed of all unrighteousness as well and again this does not make us a sinner all over again. We are not perfect but through His word we are being perfected into His image one breath after another.

So if you want to hold onto what God and the Blood of Christ has stripped from you then that would be your choice. However for me Brother, I take the written word of God for what it says and it says the yoke has been destroyed so any yoke of a sinning nature simply will not fit me for it is counterfeit - I mean come on now..........God does not see us as a sinner......why in the world would we want to ?

God Bless Major
Jim

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

You are wrong, then, dear Juk, because the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not required for salvation. Romans 8:9 is talking about the fact that we as Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit in us from the moment of faith, forever...but the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a usually subsequent anointing that we can avail ourselves of.

So, please provide scripture that tells us that being baptized in the Holy Spirit is for unbelievers to be saved.

When I was born again through incoruptible seed the ever living wortd of God I had His spirit placed in me right then and right there. That is how it works........NOW THEN down the road when I got baptised I began to speak in tongues. So I agree with my sister here.
I am aloud to do that right ?
God Bless

 

[Euphemia]

When I was born again through incoruptible seed the ever living wortd of God I had His spirit placed in me right then and right there. That is how it works........NOW THEN down the road when I got baptised I began to speak in tongues. So I agree with my sister here.
I am aloud to do that right ?
God Bless

Correctimundo!

I was saved and the Spirit of God moved in when I was 10 years old! I was baptized in water at age 18, and then baptized in the Holy Spirit a couple years after that. Speaking in tongues didn't happen until around 1998, when God miraculously heard my longing heart's cry and blessed me with more of Himself than I could contain!

Yes, you are completely allowed!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Correctimundo!

I was saved and the Spirit of God moved in when I was 10 years old! I was baptized in water at age 18, and then baptized in the Holy Spirit a couple years after that. Speaking in tongues didn't happen until around 1998, when God miraculously heard my longing heart's cry and blessed me with more of Himself than I could contain!

Yes, you are completely allowed!

I saw it like this..................The Spirit of God is hovering over the earth....like an electrical field ( example for painting a picture ) and just as a soul cries out to be saved........I mean right then...His spirit like a lightning bolt shoots out of His Spirit hovering the earth and right into the new believer. Born anew by incoruptible seed the ever living word of God. His spirit is in you.

Then when one gets baptised in the Holy Spirit it is as an anointing is poured into you or if you will THE SWITCH SISTER IS TURNED ON......
Blessings , oh and thak you
Jim

 

[Cturtle]

Forgive me dear sister, but please reread starting in Exodus 19. Moses was called up and he talked with God and then he came down, told them all the law and its punishments, in arrogance they said that they could keep it, Exo 24:3, and THEN Moses went back up spoke with Him for 40 days, and got the actual tablets, Exo 31:18. Exo 32 shows what Israel did while Moses was away, they made a molten calf, Exo 32:8. They broke the very first commandment, and because of their arrogance, they lived in bondage to the Law for 1500 years until Jesus came and set us free. Many still choose to live in that prison, even after all that Jesus did for humanity.

I apologize. I was quoting a preacher that i heard.......and it apears that i misunderstood what he said. Thanks for being so gracious in pointing out my mistake. And yes i really should have read and done my homework prior to responding to you.

Blessings

 

[Abdicate]

I do not think so. In fact it negates it altogether my brother. It is not WHEN but DID you!!! Paul suspected that something was not right hence his investigation and Since that didn't get saved they could not have received the Holy Spirit.

That is the whole point!

You know perfectly well the entire story is they believed, never heard of the Holy Spirit's baptism and then they were baptised! It's very clear. It is your choice to see what you see, but it cannot be nullified no matter how much you don't want it to say that.

 

[Abdicate]

I apologize. I was quoting a preacher that i heard.......and it apears that i misunderstood what he said. Thanks for being so gracious in pointing out my mistake. And yes i really should have read and done my homework prior to responding to you.

Blessings

No apology needed. There are soooooo many things I've been taught that just aren't scriptural and I have to deal with them too. The actual events really opens our understanding what sin means. That's what Paul was saying in Romans 7. We're innocent until told something is not right to do and then we run and do it. It's the flesh. Thanks for keeping me on my toes too! I had to reread it myself to see which memory was correct