Get It Right! Murder is Wrong, Not Killing

[Major]

You are welcome.

Ah... yes! God ordered the Israelites to go to war. And the Bible says (or at least heavily implies) that God places the leaders of the various nations over us. So when our leaders order us to war are we to understand that God by proxy is ordering us? I assume so, and here is where I have difficulty: If I were a ruler and wanted to solidify my power, I would codify my legitimacy into the religion of the people. I would make it religious canon that God ordained me and I would make it a sin against God to disobey me. Now, I'm not saying that is what the ancient Israelites did, but it seems quite a coincidence...

That God would both prohibit and command violence appears to be incongruous. The problem is not with God, but with man’s understanding of His nature and intentions.

I think that the explanation of God’s command to Israel to go to war is that His original intent was to drive out the inhabitants Himself, but God turned the responsibility over to the nation and withdrew Himself after Israel sinned. In other words, His command to go to war was a consequence of their turning from Him.

While you are correct about Israelites, don't forget that they disobeyed God more than they obeyed Him.

And now you have just opened Pandoras box of the Muslim religion.........."Jihad"!

 

[LearningToLetGo]

The problem is not with God, but with man’s understanding of His nature and intentions.

You misunderstand me. I don't claim the problem is with God. I claim the problem is with men who claim to speak for God.

And now you have just opened Pandoras box of the Muslim religion.........."Jihad"!

Yikes. I think I'll leave this alone for the time being. I'm not prepared to go in that direction at the moment.

Thank you for the stimulating conversation.

 

[Major]

You misunderstand me. I don't claim the problem is with God. I claim the problem is with men who claim to speak for God.



Yikes. I think I'll leave this alone for the time being. I'm not prepared to go in that direction at the moment.

Thank you for the stimulating conversation.

You are welcome and by the way..........I uselly get a "Love Offering" !!!

 

[LearningToLetGo]

You are welcome and by the way..........I uselly get a "Love Offering" !!!

 

[Musicmaster]

Of course. What about state sanctioned war? I don't mean wars of defense but rather wars of aggression.

Good question, LTLG. What about those leaders who abuse their power and command over armies, and use them unjustly? Do you suppose God will ultimately hold them to account?

In other words, when the soldiers are told to go out and launch an attack, and doing so is just and right since it's in defense of their own country and innocents in that other country? America has certainly done that in order to inject the moral dynamics that ensured the loyalties within the minds of the soldiers, when, in the end, it was all a selfish and profiteering venture to keep the lucrative machine of war moving to enrich the contractors who suppled the machine.

I rather think that the Lord will hold to account those who worked behind the lines and scenes for selfish gain and evil purposes. The front line soldier...no. I keep in mind in all of this that it's the heart the Lord looks upon, not just the actions.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I'm surprised by this content.
In the O.T. it was the law 'basic'.
The N.T. doesn't disagree or contradict the O.T. but it speaks of a higher level. We are in the world but not of the world. We are saved by grace, let's act like it. Scripture says love your enemies, that is not a component of this world. Jesus turned the other cheek and told Peter to put away his sword.
In Christ no one has a right to take someone's life. We forfeit our rights looking to gain the everlasting prize that is not gained by rights.
Let government do what they are called to do but let us live in Christ and He in us. The Lord is in control of all things so let us not fear for the 'footsteps of the righteous are ordered and ALL things work together to the good' of the Christian.

What is the grounding of your thinking? Is it pacifism?

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

A man I once knew said to me that if a man broke into his house and started raping his wife and children, he would demand the rapist stop, and if he didn't stop, he would call the Sherriff. When I asked him what he would do if his family was already dead by the time the authorities arrived, and had left, he stated that he would give them a description, if he could.

That may seem like an extreme example, but for me, it was far more than a mere example. That guy was serious. He said that he would do no harm to the rapist because we are supposed to love our enemies, and doing harm or applying force against the aggressor is the exact opposite to loving the enemy.

So, my question is, just how far are you willing to "turn the other cheek?" This will help us to understand what what extent your thoughts are concerning aggressors, whether they be national or local.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Murder

1. The killing of another person without justification or excuse, especially the crime of killing a person with malice aforethought or with recklessness manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.
2. An instance of such killing.

Capital Punishment is only murder if a person who was actually not guilty of the Capital crime was executed.
A murder of that nature isn't likely to be proven because the appeals investigation doesn't resume after they're dead.

I don't think VP is fair justice because of the chance of error.
Whereas a life without parole sentence gives the wrongly convicted a chance at freedom. While the guilty live in the closest thing to Hell on earth they'll know and for the rest of their life.

Governments can and do make mistakes, and have executed some who were actually innocent of the murder that was on trial at the time.

Now, some of those who were unjustly executed were innocent of the murder on trial, but were guilty of others, which made it easier to get a guilty verdict.

Others yet, those who were totally innocent of any and all murder, well, they had murder in their hearts at some point in their lives, and were still guilty of some murder at some point(s) in their lives.

Those who had never committed, nor were guilty of heart, for murder, and who were in Christ, they will receive at least a hundred fold of what they had lost, and their execution doesn't make it murder on the part of the government. I would have to see where the Lord leveled such an accusation against any government structure of His own creation.

MM

 

[Major]

Now that is what I am talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Major]

Governments can and do make mistakes, and have executed some who were actually innocent of the murder that was on trial at the time.

Now, some of those who were unjustly executed were innocent of the murder on trial, but were guilty of others, which made it easier to get a guilty verdict.

Others yet, those who were totally innocent of any and all murder, well, they had murder in their hearts at some point in their lives, and were still guilty of some murder at some point(s) in their lives.

Those who had never committed, nor were guilty of heart, for murder, and who were in Christ, they will receive at least a hundred fold of what they had lost, and their execution doesn't make it murder on the part of the government. I would have to see where the Lord leveled such an accusation against any government structure of His own creation.

MM

Agreed!

 

[2404]

What is the grounding of your thinking? Is it pacifism?

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

A man I once knew said to me that if a man broke into his house and started raping his wife and children, he would demand the rapist stop, and if he didn't stop, he would call the Sherriff. When I asked him what he would do if his family was already dead by the time the authorities arrived, and had left, he stated that he would give them a description, if he could.

That may seem like an extreme example, but for me, it was far more than a mere example. That guy was serious. He said that he would do no harm to the rapist because we are supposed to love our enemies, and doing harm or applying force against the aggressor is the exact opposite to loving the enemy.

So, my question is, just how far are you willing to "turn the other cheek?" This will help us to understand what what extent your thoughts are concerning aggressors, whether they be national or local.

MM

Hello MM and thank you for your reply.
It may look like pacifism but not so. It takes more strength (supernatural strength) not to lean on our own understanding but to stand on the Word of God. He said He will not allow more to come upon us than what we can bear. Sometimes this means that He will allow us to be moved to the point of becoming destabilized so that we can't even see where we are at and as a result we have to look to Him.
If the Lord should tarry and we come to the door how thankful we will be that we don't have to rely on anything that we can do.

Of course 1 Tim. 5:8 is a reference to being slothful.

 

[Major]

Governments can and do make mistakes, and have executed some who were actually innocent of the murder that was on trial at the time.

Now, some of those who were unjustly executed were innocent of the murder on trial, but were guilty of others, which made it easier to get a guilty verdict.

Others yet, those who were totally innocent of any and all murder, well, they had murder in their hearts at some point in their lives, and were still guilty of some murder at some point(s) in their lives.

Those who had never committed, nor were guilty of heart, for murder, and who were in Christ, they will receive at least a hundred fold of what they had lost, and their execution doesn't make it murder on the part of the government. I would have to see where the Lord leveled such an accusation against any government structure of His own creation.

MM

Actually there are a lot of people just like that. However, I am not one of them.

In Genesis 14:1-16, In that passage, Abraham took a force of 318 men and rescued Lot and his possessions from an army of five nations. In the opening book of the Bible we find this example of self-defense.

In Exodus 22:2, Moses gave us this law,
"If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account."

You are allowed to kill a thief who breaks into your home. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that God allows us to kill someone who also threatens to murder you, a spouse, a child, a friend, or your neighbors.

Throughout Scripture we are encouraged to defend the weak, fatherless, the afflicted, poor, and those in need.
Psalms 82:3-4......
"Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked."

I wonder what God would say on judgment day to the man who stood and just yelled at the man killing his child and wife.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Governments can and do make mistakes, and have executed some who were actually innocent of the murder that was on trial at the time.

Now, some of those who were unjustly executed were innocent of the murder on trial, but were guilty of others, which made it easier to get a guilty verdict.

Others yet, those who were totally innocent of any and all murder, well, they had murder in their hearts at some point in their lives, and were still guilty of some murder at some point(s) in their lives.

Those who had never committed, nor were guilty of heart, for murder, and who were in Christ, they will receive at least a hundred fold of what they had lost, and their execution doesn't make it murder on the part of the government. I would have to see where the Lord leveled such an accusation against any government structure of His own creation.

MM

I don't think the surviving family and friends of innocents put to death in prison would agree.

If a government is imperfect it can't be of a perfect God.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hello MM and thank you for your reply.
It may look like pacifism but not so. It takes more strength (supernatural strength) not to lean on our own understanding but to stand on the Word of God. He said He will not allow more to come upon us than what we can bear. Sometimes this means that He will allow us to be moved to the point of becoming destabilized so that we can't even see where we are at and as a result we have to look to Him.
If the Lord should tarry and we come to the door how thankful we will be that we don't have to rely on anything that we can do.

Of course 1 Tim. 5:8 is a reference to being slothful.

Context is important. The context to which you referred, in that the Lord would not allow us to be "tempted" beyond our means to resist, it rests within the couch of that context. Self defense and wars aren't necessarily a good fit within that context so far as I can see. If you believe it fits, then I would appreciate your further thoughts on that. I'm asking because the tendency we sometimes have is to expand a context beyond its own border to make it conveniently inclusive of things that were not within the scope of the defining terminologies (words used).

Perhaps one could say that murderous intent is a temptation to some, or many. Looking at the Ten Commandments aimed strictly at the Israelites, we might see temptation behind each of those elements forbidden. Although murder is one of the items forbidden, it's interesting that revenge was not in the class defined by murder, given that the Lord instructed the building of sanctuary cities for those escaping vengeful acts against them. In Christ, BOTH of those elements are now forbidden, one of which was allowed before. That alone shows the inferiority of the Mosaic Law in relation to God's Law, but that's another discussion entirely.

Thanks for taking the time to address this.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I don't think the surviving family and friends of innocents put to death in prison would agree.

If a government is imperfect it can't be of a perfect God.

When the Lord empowered governments to execute convicted murderers, I don't think He had in mind the feelings of family and friends of the executed.

What makes execution perfect, whether the executed party was actually guilty or not, is that scripture teaches us that ALL things work for the good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose. All those who don't love God, well, what can anyone say? Who else is to blame for their loss? If they do not receive good things as a result of such an injustice, then that's of their own doing, not the family, the friends, or anyone else.

You see, this all has to do with one's viewpoint of death. For many, death is only a beginning, and for others, entry into the second death. Will they say that they had no chance to turn to Christ? Well, no. Nobody will ever have an excuse before the Lord's Throne when judged.

So, if I may, please explain your views on all this. I'm apparently too dense to get what you're saying. I like gleaning an understanding of other people's thoughts on matter such as this.

Thanks

MM

 

[LearningToLetGo]

What makes execution perfect, whether the executed party was actually guilty or not, is that scripture teaches us that ALL things work for the good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose. All those who don't love God, well, what can anyone say? Who else is to blame for their loss? If they do not receive good things as a result of such an injustice, then that's of their own doing, not the family, the friends, or anyone else.

This sounds unnecessarily callous.

 

[forgiven61]

my 2 cents take it or not .. when a murder of another human being in cold blood is committed the death penalty is in order most death sentences takes place 20-30 years later. i had 3 family members shot in cold blood the father the mother and oldest daughter. who they all tied to a tree shot in the temple.by a 38. the daughter knelt to pray they shot her in the back of the head. the trigger man is still in pinion the family has ask the parole board not to turn him out. in defense of family or your life . should be legal

 

[bobinfaith]

This sounds unnecessarily callous.

my 2 cents take it or not .. when a murder of another human being in cold blood is committed the death penalty is in order most death sentences takes place 20-30 years later. i had 3 family members shot in cold blood the father the mother and oldest daughter. who they all tied to a tree shot in the temple.by a 38. the daughter knelt to pray they shot her in the back of the head. the trigger man is still in pinion the family has ask the parole board not to turn him out. in defense of family or your life . should be legal

Hello forgiven;

This is horrible what happened in your family. So the suspect is still in prison, I'm assuming for life? Why would the Parole Board reduce his sentence?

Hello LearningToLetGo;

I have re-read your posts and still need clarification where you stand on this topic to help me understand.

God bless you, brothers forgiven and LearningToLetGo, and your families.

 

[forgiven61]

I'm assuming for life

my cousin was bank president his wife head cashier the oldest daughter came in from half day school jan 1073 they had built a new home semi in th woods off the main road. there of them 3 consecutive life sentences plus fed time awaits for bank robbery . 2/of 3 are out 1 died .trigger man still doing time. mo had no death penalty at that time. i was about 11 years old . but yes i support the death penalty. might i add time to meet Jesus the victims had very little time. the criminals have at least 20 years

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Hello LearningToLetGo;

I have re-read your posts and still need clarification where you stand on this topic to help me understand.

The Bible clearly differentiates between killing and murder and it is murder that God forbids. That said, there is no killing without consequence and we must all be prepared to kneel before God and own our actions, whatever they may be.

 

[Siloam]

I thought hard and prayed and prayed on this issue before I joined the Air force.

When I joined I declined to specify either job or duty location, I purposely left that to the Lord.

I was never in a combat unit.

I was never even out of the country. I was at headquarters getting information to the decision makers (the people with stars on their shoulders).

In the tooth to tail analogy where combat troops are the teeth, and the rest is tail, I was the very tip of the back-side.

Looking back, I am sure that I was where the Lord wanted me.

I know that war may be the job of the military, but that is like saying disease is the job of doctors.

None of the decision makers I served looked forward to battle any more than prudent planning requires. They took fighting as necessary to prevent worse things in the future. They took great pains to limit collateral damage.

Murder (even cold blooded) is an act of passion. Individual soldiers may have passion to do their job, but battle is not murder.