ButterflyJones
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Where does it confer that authority? You stipulated that was the case first.
Get It Right! Murder is Wrong, Not Killing
- Thread starter Musicmaster
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Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Romans 13:1-7
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Now, someone out there may be thinking, "There's no reference to capital punishment in those verses."
When we ignore scope, and especially the implications for taking into our own hands some things that are best left untouched by our own hands, we traipse into the realm of vigilantism, which was alive and well in ancient times. If one is going to talk about the very few who have ever been executed wrongfully by governments, I challenge such a one to look back into the days where vigilantism was rampant, and how many innocent people were murdered wrongfully for a crime they never committed...no trial, no discovery of the facts, no cross-examination of the witnesses...if any, etc.
So, the bleeding hearts out there who see government as nothing but evil, they are in danger of "damnation," as it is written in verse 2 above.
Verse 4, however, is the prime directive for who bears the sword for justice. Where it's true that some think the author should have been more precise in what items were included in his meaning, they are those who look for any escape they can muster up in order to justify their agenda...casting doubts into the gears of scripture to try and ensure they don't operate in the particular that happens to be the aim of their endeavor.
Bottom line is that the Lord alone is the sole Authority over life and death, and He has delegated that to governments, which are His ministers and revengers of wrath upon those who do evil. That's a far cry from defending one's family and home from intruders, which some out there may try to use as a battering ram against the clear language of these and other passages in order to justify the other extreme of pacifism.
MM
A new concept of combat evolving in the 21st century is a preemptive war of self defense. It involves planners preparing for an aggressive war of self defense, attacking an enemy and neutralizing that enemy's combat capabilities before that enemy can attack your country. Such a war concept makes saber rattling a very risky activity for making a threat.
That's an interesting concept. Sounds like a global version of that Tom Cruise movie from a while back.
ButterflyJones
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I'll leave you to believe as you prefer.
Oh? Ok. You asked where we get that from, and I answered. If you believe the outflow from those verses is wrong as I stated them, then by all means, chime in. We're all big boys and girls here.
MM
ButterflyJones
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I think people who believe in state sanctioned killing will qualify their beliefs by any means.
New Testament Christians know Jesus condemned the death penalty when he saved the Magdalene from it. And Lord knows he himself was illegally convicted and sentenced to death. Just two examples.
So to insist Jesus upholds the death penalty is error.
Which is why I leave you to your support of secular execution law.
Which is not Biblical for New Testament Christians.
That's a great point, and I appreciate your feedback. Let's explore that together.
What was the basis of the accusation against the woman? The Mosaic Law, right? Can we both agree with that?
Let's look at that Law and see if it fit what played out before and against Yahshuah...
Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
As we can see in the Mosaic Law, the religious leaders failed in their application of that Law by bringing only the woman before Jesus for judgement. Where was the man? So far as we know, he was not taken hold of to be judged and put to death...only the woman.
Now, one doesn't have to be a legal expert to see that those leaders were clearly in violation of what Moses had been inspired to write. For Jesus to have judged only her according to His own Law that He inspired Moses to write, He would have been a hypocrite and a liar. Yahshuah and those leaders knew good and well that they were trying to trap Him, and it didn't work. It was almost a no-win situation either way.
However, as we can all see, what Yahshuah did was betray their sins of misapplication of the Law on the basis of their own personal sins. They knew that He had caught them in their own hypocrisies.
To say that the situation proves a reversal of God's stance on capital punishment in relation to murder is to also say that God was going against His own nature as reflected in His Law, the prophets, the poets, the Gospels and the epistles. To believe that He suddenly, and without any supporting narrative whatsoever, either before or after, reversed His commands concerning murder, when the context here is adultery...that's a stretch that lands itself completely in the realm of subjectivising the word of God to say whatever we want it to say.
I would agree that adultery is not a supported basis for capital punishment, but I can also say that society and culture today would be better off with it than what we see going on without it.
Does that make sense? If I'm amiss, then please elaborate. I'm always open to correction, and thanks in advance for your writing time spent on discussing this.
MM
ButterflyJones
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Has capital Punishment applied thus far in those states where it is law made society better for its application?
Jesus said love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you. Turn the other cheek. Not, kill them.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:38-48 - New International Version
Eye for Eye - “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone...
Matthew 5
Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[b] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.Please post the New Testament scripture where Jesus reiterates capital punishment.
ButterflyJones
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Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
This would lead to mass murder if prosecuted by the letter of that edict.
Kill those who killed those who killed those who killed....
This would lead to mass murder if prosecuted by the letter of that edict.
Kill those who killed those who killed those who killed....
Hello ButterflyJones;
If you read my entire post#44 I included, "Many men and women of God must stand for what they personally believe regarding killing in self-defense. This is a very serious decision that will have an impact the rest of one's days. Therefore, what one may believe should be confessed to a close brother or sister in Christ, and covet incessant prayers should this decision, God forbid, take place one day."
I do understand what the Scriptures are saying to you. Stand by your personal conviction, brother.
God bless you and your family.
ButterflyJones
Account Closed
Sister, actually.
And thank you.Has capital Punishment applied thus far in those states where it is law made society better for its application?
Jesus said love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you. Turn the other cheek. Not, kill them.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:38-48 - New International Version
Eye for Eye - “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone...www.biblegateway.com
Matthew 5
Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[b] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Please post the New Testament scripture where Jesus reiterates capital punishment.
Perhaps I'm not understanding your cross-application of personal conduct over into the realm of government and its function and authorization to punish evil, which is something individuals are not allowed to do.
So, my question is, why rip from the contexts of personal conduct toward one's neighbor and such, and paste that onto government, which is not at all the same thing? Those are two entirely different realms, both in function and in allowances as stated in the word of God?
MM
Yes. It has. How do we prove that? Only God knows all the individuals out there who withheld themselves from slaying someone because of their fear of capital punishment. That lack of Divine knowledge on our part is the weak foundation so many use as their platform for opposing such. That's a fallacy any time someone appeals to silence, or appeals to ignorance of the realities, to stab that into the grounding of their case. Fallacious arguments seem to be the prime motivators behind so much of the opposition to sending murderers to God for Him to judge.
One might ask WHY we should send them to the Lord. Simply stated, given that God alone is Master and Lord over life and death, those who cause the death of others must then be rightfully sent to God for Him to judge speedily and justly. Leviticus 20 is simply a reflection of that very reasoning that I verbalized in modern vernaculars.
My friend, I never suggested that any one of us not do as that instructions states. We are not talking about individual conduct. You never did answer my question as to what your basis of authority is to superimpose upon government what was instructed of individuals. They are not one and the same, but your superimposition seems to betray that thinking. I'd simply like to understand your basis for that, if I may ask.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:38-48 - New International Version
Eye for Eye - “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone...Matthew 5
Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Yes, and to whom did Jesus address that instruction. Context is almost always key. He was not speaking to government rulers. He was speaking to individuals. At no time in His earthly ministry did the Lord instruct anyone to do what was opposed to the Mosaic Law, especially considering that they were all still under that Law at the time He spoke those words. He was teaching them to rise above the Mosaic Law, and that instruction is exactly a reflection of that. It's one for them to have violated the Mosaic Law, but quite another to rise above it. Do you understand that statement? Does it make sense?
BfJ, there's no right answer to the wrong question, except to say that you're appealing to silence. The silence on that topic doesn't justify the idea that it passed away, unless you can establish from any one verse, or group of verses, that the purpose for Jesus' coming to this earth was to nullify the authority for execution that He Himself handed over to governments in the Law.
So, if you would, please show to us the basis for an appeal to silence as an authoritative injunction against capital execution of murderers.
MM
BfJ, I had hoped everyone would avoid positing extremes. The healthy balance in it all is that governments are comprised of men, and it is by man's hand, therefore, that those guilty of bloodshed, their blood should be shed. That is not an indictment against the actual executioner who is acting under the authority of government, which is also God's authority.
MM
You can't speak of govts in general when laws in different countries and regions are all different in regards to what is murder and what is manslaughter. Also, women can be in govt too.
There are instances of women killing in the Bible - Jael killed Sisera
Midwives were on order by Egypt to kill Hebrew babies but some midwives refused to and saved them.
It was the priests in the OT that were sacrificing the lambs (and other animals) at the altar and they had to do it a special way that was kosher, and in the NT there was an agreed rule against strangling.
What we learn of Jesus death (and resurrection) was that he willingly laid down his life. He knew beforehand that he would die and what manner of death it would be. Many of us, actually don't know how we will die (at least, maybe not until our very last days) and so are unprepared for it. But we can actually be taken at any time - because the wages of sin are death and most all of us have sinned at some point in our lives, we wouldn't be HUMAN or flesh and blood if we didn't.
Only Jesus was someone who never ever sinned.
From the point where we are saved we can then give our lives as a sacrifice the way Jesus did, and some people do that. Of course not many people want to do that, but you'd be surprised that people do, eg Isaac, willingly laid down and was bound by Abraham. Many men go off to war, knowing that, they might be killed. (And have to kill others) . That so many died in Gallipoli fighting a war for some other country they may have never been to is a big thing to deal with in NZ every ANZAC day, and most of the time its though of as a sacrifice, that they hadn't died in vain, though for all the women and children left behind, it seemed like such a waste of a life. The truth was they were woefully unprepared, and were easily slaughtered on those fields. The British army recruited people from the colonies to fight wars for them, because they basically did not value their lives OR they thought it was a noble thing to give them up 'for God and country'.
So it depends on how you look at it.
There are instances of women killing in the Bible - Jael killed Sisera
Midwives were on order by Egypt to kill Hebrew babies but some midwives refused to and saved them.
It was the priests in the OT that were sacrificing the lambs (and other animals) at the altar and they had to do it a special way that was kosher, and in the NT there was an agreed rule against strangling.
What we learn of Jesus death (and resurrection) was that he willingly laid down his life. He knew beforehand that he would die and what manner of death it would be. Many of us, actually don't know how we will die (at least, maybe not until our very last days) and so are unprepared for it. But we can actually be taken at any time - because the wages of sin are death and most all of us have sinned at some point in our lives, we wouldn't be HUMAN or flesh and blood if we didn't.
Only Jesus was someone who never ever sinned.
From the point where we are saved we can then give our lives as a sacrifice the way Jesus did, and some people do that. Of course not many people want to do that, but you'd be surprised that people do, eg Isaac, willingly laid down and was bound by Abraham. Many men go off to war, knowing that, they might be killed. (And have to kill others) . That so many died in Gallipoli fighting a war for some other country they may have never been to is a big thing to deal with in NZ every ANZAC day, and most of the time its though of as a sacrifice, that they hadn't died in vain, though for all the women and children left behind, it seemed like such a waste of a life. The truth was they were woefully unprepared, and were easily slaughtered on those fields. The British army recruited people from the colonies to fight wars for them, because they basically did not value their lives OR they thought it was a noble thing to give them up 'for God and country'.
So it depends on how you look at it.
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I think they were conscripted though, whereas these days you aren't, if you want to be in the army, it's now your choice at least in NZ.
other countries I think you are still conscripted and drafted. Eg Taiwan, Korea, Israel.
In Jesus time I think all Romans had to be gladiators or something. Not sure, but every Roman male seemed to be some kind of centurion or something. That's how they kept law and order back then. Jewish people resented being occupied by the Romans for sure. But they were under its laws as well as its protections. Back then the Romans crucified law breakers, whereas in Jewish laws they would have been stoned.
It is interesting that BOTH Pilate and Herod (they were in authority at the time) came to an agreement that Jesus didn't deserve to be crucified, and saw him as innocent but it was the public that had turned against Jesus and wanted him dead while letting Barabbas go free. I am kind of curious how big a public opinion had swayed against Jesus since there seemed to be just as many who adored Jesus before his death. But they weren't in enough numbers to stop the crucifixtion. Maybe it was the elite cabal that was very vocal and had silenced the majority?
Paul famously appealed to Roman law when he was about to be captured..but thats another story later on in the NT.
other countries I think you are still conscripted and drafted. Eg Taiwan, Korea, Israel.
In Jesus time I think all Romans had to be gladiators or something. Not sure, but every Roman male seemed to be some kind of centurion or something. That's how they kept law and order back then. Jewish people resented being occupied by the Romans for sure. But they were under its laws as well as its protections. Back then the Romans crucified law breakers, whereas in Jewish laws they would have been stoned.
It is interesting that BOTH Pilate and Herod (they were in authority at the time) came to an agreement that Jesus didn't deserve to be crucified, and saw him as innocent but it was the public that had turned against Jesus and wanted him dead while letting Barabbas go free. I am kind of curious how big a public opinion had swayed against Jesus since there seemed to be just as many who adored Jesus before his death. But they weren't in enough numbers to stop the crucifixtion. Maybe it was the elite cabal that was very vocal and had silenced the majority?
Paul famously appealed to Roman law when he was about to be captured..but thats another story later on in the NT.
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Sister, actually.
Oops! ButterflyJones!
My mistake, sister.
Your brother in Christ,
Bob