Get It Right! Murder is Wrong, Not Killing

LearningToLetGo said:
This sounds unnecessarily callous.
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Please share with us as to what other viewpoint is credible. Death is only final to those who kept their backs turned to the Lord.

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:...

It is what it is, whether one lives a full life with wife, kids, grandkids, et al, or is executed for a murder he did not commit.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If they go to the injection bed for execution, or their death bed, or are taken unexpectedly in a wreck...whatever...they are without excuse, and apart from Christ, they alone harbor the sole responsibility for the choices they made in life. It's seemingly cold and harsh to some, but it is what it is...even callous if that's the term one chooses to describe it.

The only exception to death in this life is those few who did as instructed in Luke 21:36, and are alive at His coming for the Church. That's it. Amazing, isn't it, to think that some will escape having to die in this life? This is the point where Paul stated that death is swallowed up in victory...in that some will escape even death. THAT is a blessed hope.

Amen.

MM
 
Here's another thought....fatalism.

We've all heard that term. It can be good, and it can be bad.

On the good side of it, it simply describes a surrender to the things that we cannot change, and that the Lord chooses to not change because it's His good pleasure as the sole Sovereign over all.

On the bad side of it all is the tendency many have toward giving up. Some think that they can hire out their responsibility to "pastor" for him to share the Gospel with others rather than to expend any of their own pride to suffer rejection and derision for daring to share with others what most see as an assault against their peace of mind. They happily plop their so-called "giving" into the passing plate, thinking that they have been relieved of their responsibility for sharing the Gospel and discipling.

Fatalism therefore has two faces...one beautiful, and the other ugly. It's too bad that the ugly one is manifest within so much of religion under the guise of Christianity.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Please share with us as to what other viewpoint is credible. Death is only final to those who kept their backs turned to the Lord.
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What you wrote is credible. My objection is your writing, "What makes execution perfect" in the context of a false conviction. That is what I called callous.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
The Bible clearly differentiates between killing and murder and it is murder that God forbids. That said, there is no killing without consequence and we must all be prepared to kneel before God and own our actions, whatever they may be.
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Hello LearningToLetGo;

The speaker is correct in his Hebrew definition of harag = kill and ratsach = murder. There is a profound difference.

In the ministry I serve I have known men of the cloth, good contributors of society imprisoned for violence and murder for many reasons. I have never murdered anyone and pray to God daily to help guard my heart and tongue during my lifetime.

But this is where I stand. If my wife, family or myself is physically attacked and the only way to defend her, my family or myself is by killing the attacker, I hope to remember the Scriptures, but most likely will react the way any man would to protect his family from murder.

I put a lot of stock and faith in Exodus 22:2. I believe God sanctioned self-defense.

But in the point you shared regarding consequences, I'm with you. I must get on my knees before God, not so much for my actions, but the fact that I made a decision to kill another human being for those reasons. God forbid this ever crosses my path.

Many men and women of God must stand for what they personally believe regarding killing in self-defense. This is a very serious decision that will have an impact the rest of one's days. Therefore, what one may believe should be confessed to a close brother or sister in Christ, and covet incessant prayers should this decision, God forbid, take place one day.

God bless you, Jason, and may God protect all our families.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
What you wrote is credible. My objection is your writing, "What makes execution perfect" in the context of a false conviction. That is what I called callous.
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The institution of execution, as I had stated before, is perfect, because it was implemented by the One who is perfect.

I don't have the direct quote, but I think I can capture the gist of what J. Vernon McGee once said in his radio broadcast that has stuck with me for many years now. He once stated that the institution of capital punishment, in reality, is not really punishment, but rather sending the accused and judged to the Ultimate Judge of all mankind. If the man is innocent, then the Lord who know of His innocence will deal with him accordingly. If he is guilty before a Perfect God, then the Lord will deal with him accordingly. Either way, every executed person receives a just judgement that counts above all others.

So, where mankind makes mistakes along that front, ultimately, execution is perfect because each one of them meets the Perfect Judge to be judged perfectly.

What would make it imperfect is for there to be some sort of bias within those who are a part of the system, and who perpetrate injustice against the accused. Has that happened before? It matters no in the entire scheme of things, because they too will one day stand before the Perfect Judge.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
The institution of execution, as I had stated before, is perfect, because it was implemented by the One who is perfect.

I don't have the direct quote, but I think I can capture the gist of what J. Vernon McGee once said in his radio broadcast that has stuck with me for many years now. He once stated that the institution of capital punishment, in reality, is not really punishment, but rather sending the accused and judged to the Ultimate Judge of all mankind. If the man is innocent, then the Lord who know of His innocence will deal with him accordingly. If he is guilty before a Perfect God, then the Lord will deal with him accordingly. Either way, every executed person receives a just judgement that counts above all others.
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Thank you for clarifying.
 
Musicmaster said:
J. Vernon McGee once said in his radio broadcast that has stuck with me for many years now. He once stated that the institution of capital punishment, in reality, is not really punishment, but rather sending the accused and judged to the Ultimate Judge of all mankind. If the man is innocent, then the Lord who know of His innocence will deal with him accordingly. If he is guilty before a Perfect God, then the Lord will deal with him accordingly. Either way, every executed person receives a just judgement that counts above all others.
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That's a bit Amalric (Beziers), don't you think? I've listened to J. Vernon McGee on the radio. He seemed like a decent fellow. I'm surprised he would take this approach. Regardless, I vehemently disagree with this reasoning. I think it's lazy and dangerous but I'm content to accept our differences and leave it be. 🙏 ❤️
 
LearningToLetGo said:
That's a bit Amalric (Beziers), don't you think? I've listened to J. Vernon McGee on the radio. He seemed like a decent fellow. I'm surprised he would take this approach. Regardless, I vehemently disagree with this reasoning. I think it's lazy and dangerous but I'm content to accept our differences and leave it be. 🙏 ❤️
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You asked a question, and then closed off the discussion. Hmm. Ok. It is what it is.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
The institution of execution, as I had stated before, is perfect, because it was implemented by the One who is perfect. I don't have the direct quote, but I think I can capture the gist of what J. Vernon McGee once said in his radio broadcast that has stuck with me for many years now. He once stated that the institution of capital punishment, in reality, is not really punishment, but rather sending the accused and judged to the Ultimate Judge of all mankind. If the man is innocent, then the Lord who know of His innocence will deal with him accordingly. If he is guilty before a Perfect God, then the Lord will deal with him accordingly. Either way, every executed person receives a just judgement that counts above all others. So, where mankind makes mistakes along that front, ultimately, execution is perfect because each one of them meets the Perfect Judge to be judged perfectly. What would make it imperfect is for there to be some sort of bias within those who are a part of the system, and who perpetrate injustice against the accused. Has that happened before? It matters no in the entire scheme of things, because they too will one day stand before the Perfect Judge.
MM
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Hello Musicmaster;

What Dr. McGee shared in his broadcast was the execution decision whether just or unjust that closes the book, so to speak, according to the government of the world. However, God's judgment and just is the ultimate final. I believe this is what Dr. McGee was pointing to.

God bless you, brother.
 
bobinfaith said:
Hello Musicmaster;

What Dr. McGee shared in his broadcast was the execution decision whether just or unjust that closes the book, so to speak, according to the government of the world. However, God's judgment and just is the ultimate final. I believe this is what Dr. McGee was pointing to.

God bless you, brother.
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Thank you, Bob. There likely was more context to his statements, but that one that stuck with me was when he said that capital punishment was God's way of having murderers sent to Him for His judgement given that mankind isn't rightfully able to handle such men. Perhaps "handle" isn't the word he used, but it pretty much conveyed the thought I hopefully expressed in accordance with his meaning.

“I believe in the eternal security of the believer and in the insecurity of the make-believer.”

— J. Vernon McGee
 
I think I will leave that for judges to decide in a murder case.
I'm not a judge and I don't particularly enjoy reading abut true crimes, though some people do.

I think there will be circumstances where you may take the life of someone or even your own life (as a sacrifice) and God knows about that. I wouldn't want to be in a position where someones life is in my hands (which is why I am not a doctor, or a vet, or a butcher) but see people are not like books where there can be many carbon copies of the exact same title. Each person is unique and important to God, even when they are sinners. So to take someones life is a big thing.

You need to know what you are doing and the impact it will have (not just on yourself) and also, bury the body afterward, don't just leave it there. To have killed someone accidentally is horribly careless as that person may have been loved by someone, if not you. Its someones daughter, son, husband or wife, sister or brother. Not just a faceless anonymous person.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
I believe all my questions have been answered. Is there something you would like to add? I'm happy to continue this discussion and only stopped because I don't want it to become negative.
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In post #47, you stated, "That's a bit Amalric (Beziers), don't you think?"

I have no idea how that curve applies to what I stated. That's the question I had referred in my response.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
In post #47, you stated, "That's a bit Amalric (Beziers), don't you think?"

I have no idea how that curve applies to what I stated. That's the question I had referred in my response.

MM
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I see. My apologies. That was a rhetorical question, but to answer: you had mentioned something Dr. McGee had said regarding capital punishment.

Musicmaster said:
He once stated that the institution of capital punishment, in reality, is not really punishment, but rather sending the accused and judged to the Ultimate Judge of all mankind. If the man is innocent, then the Lord who know of His innocence will deal with him accordingly. If he is guilty before a Perfect God, then the Lord will deal with him accordingly. Either way, every executed person receives a just judgement that counts above all others.
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When I said, "That's a bit Amalric (Beziers)", I was making a reference to Arnaud Amalric, the Cisterian Abbot who in 1209 lead the Crusade against the city of Beziers in what is now southern France and is attributed to have said, "Kill them all; God will know his own" when his soldiers asked how to differentiate the Catholics from the heritics in that battle.
 
LearningToLetGo said:
I see. My apologies. That was a rhetorical question, but to answer: you had mentioned something Dr. McGee had said regarding capital punishment.


When I said, "That's a bit Amalric (Beziers)", I was making a reference to Arnaud Amalric, the Cisterian Abbot who in 1209 lead the Crusade against the city of Beziers in what is now southern France and is attributed to have said, "Kill them all; God will know his own" when his soldiers asked how to differentiate the Catholics from the heritics in that battle.
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Oh. Hmm. Beziers is also a parabolic curve with fixed point ends in mathematics. That's what threw me about that.

Also, capital punishment versus someone giving orders to murder heretics and catholics, and God sort them all out...no, I don't see that as a legitimate parallel. It actually seems more like an apples to oranges comparison since we were talking about people who had gone through the entire judicial process and convicted, with most actually being guilty, and only a very, very small hand full being innocent. Unethical wars are plentiful throughout history, and the inquisitions, as wars against true Christians, perpetrated by a demonic cult, that's not something I think anyone could countenance.

However, the days of persecution are going to return more broadly than China. Judeo Israelis are getting tired of losing more and more of their people to Christianity, and are pushing for a law banning the name of Christ Jesus from public and social media in Israel.

MM
 
As said before am not a judge (or been on a jury) so hard to say, whether the justice system that we have in NZ really is working.

I do know we used to have capital punishment (by hanging) but nowadays we don't. What happens is people go to prison, or they get deported.
In some cases, if a person is life threatening the arms offenders squad sometimes does use its weapons on the offender and shoot them to protect others.

It does cost a lot of money (tax payers dollars?) to house and feed a prisoner. I am not sure, because I haven't worked in a prison, what kind of rehab they do in there. I only know from a librarians point of view, there are prison libraries but how that is run I am not sure, when I applied once, they told me all books are donated, they don't have a full circulating library, and I gather that the librarian would run the books in once a week or so.

Its not just for murder that people go to prison, they can be in there for other crimes, mostly stealing, assault, disorderly behaviour, vandalism etc. Many have drug problems. Almost all had been abandoned by their parents, especially lack of father figure.

Whether they get a second chance at life or not depends on how merciful the judge is. I have heard of a non-violent peace program that has been sort of successful in prisons, especially for hardened gang members. And then of course you do hear stories of people finding Jesus in prison. Many many testimonies about this. Maybe not everyone will follow Jesus, but at least the offer/invitiation to salvation is there and thats important, to reach people in prison.

some other things to consider, is the method of killing people the issue? There are many ways to kill people, and some are more violent and cruel than others. I've just been reading about the Japanese invasion of China in Nanking, and the war crimes they committed were atrocious. Not only did they kill people but they raped women and children in front of everyone and bayoneted them, and then left them in a pool of blood to rot. Apparently, the Japanese army at the time just let the captains of their armies do whatever they wanted. How that might be different from say, bombing someone from above or leaving a random landmine or throwing agent orange over everything so that people burned to death, I don't know, but violating defenceless women in front of everyone seems especially cruel.

If two able bodied men are in a fight or duel or agreed combat, I would not be concerned so much. But a man just raping and killing a woman who cannot fight back for no reason but his own hatred/lust ? Abominable.
 
Musicmaster said:
When the Lord empowered governments to execute convicted murderers, I don't think He had in mind the feelings of family and friends of the executed.

What makes execution perfect, whether the executed party was actually guilty or not, is that scripture teaches us that ALL things work for the good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose. All those who don't love God, well, what can anyone say? Who else is to blame for their loss? If they do not receive good things as a result of such an injustice, then that's of their own doing, not the family, the friends, or anyone else.

You see, this all has to do with one's viewpoint of death. For many, death is only a beginning, and for others, entry into the second death. Will they say that they had no chance to turn to Christ? Well, no. Nobody will ever have an excuse before the Lord's Throne when judged.

So, if I may, please explain your views on all this. I'm apparently too dense to get what you're saying. I like gleaning an understanding of other people's thoughts on matter such as this.

Thanks

MM
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None of that as related to capital Punishment is Biblical per the new covenant.
 
Well nobody is crucified anymore...since Jesus, I don't think any govt/ruling power does it.

hanging, guillitoine, lethal injection, shooting, gassing, burning at the stake, stoning, abortion, suffocation...but no more crucifying as far as I know.
 
why do you bring up this topic MM? Just wondering.

Have you killed someone recently (or know someone who has?) and want to talk about it? I don't know...

I think you have to account for every life you have taken when you meet your maker anyway. Even if it has been by accident or by your words (life and death are in the power of the tongue). It's not something people are generally proud of, but I did read that memoir by Prince Harry in which he just said he killed 23 people. I don't know if thats a boast or what. It was something he was trained to do, in the army. I don't know whether, if you get trained to do something like kill, whether that actually makes it ok. Then you can say, well it wasn't me, I was just told to do it. (?)

I know women who've had abortions and vets generally have to euthanise animals. If you kill someone that's on you for the rest of your life though. Either they'll meet you in heaven or not.
 
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