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Getting Angry When Others Disagree With Us
- Thread starter bobinfaith
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Then of course why did you bring it up.
What I see in Scripture is in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10...........
" Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
Whether one believes in Continuation or Cessationalism, it is nothing to argue over at all, IMHO
If anyone chooses to believe in Continuation, great! But it is NOT a Biblical mandate.
The Bible says that the "Sign Gifts" were given by the Lord Jesus Christ "To the ELEVEN" in Mark 16. There is absolutely NO Scripture that says, or implies that those gifts continued after the last Apostle died.
I love it when a plan comes together!We understand each other.
Robin.....that is just not true. Cessationalism is a theological position, NOT a denominational teaching.
There is nothing in the rules concerning a denomination that we can not discuss.
There are all kinds of people from all kinds of denominational positions here and there will be different thoughts on continuation and cessation of the Sign Gifts.
I actually come from the Assembly of God denomination so I am very familiar with this argument as I have been a Southern Baptist but more importantly, I am a Biblicist! As YOU siad.....It is what the Scriptures say!
I will say to you that the belief of Continuation of the Sign Gifts is in fact a denominational position taken by the some of our Christian friends. To be able to practice and do the Sign Gifts listed in Mark 16, they have taught that there is a "Continuation" of those gifts as there are Apostles today.
However.....there are NO Bible Scriptures of Apostolic succession. NONE/ZERO/NADA.
It is Biblically impossible for there to be Apostles today so the idea is false!
Now if anyone choose to believe in miracles and a prophetic word of knowledge or different dialects, GREAT!
All I am saying is that the choice can not be made based on Bible Scriptures but instead a personal choice.
Always good to talk with you brother!
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Hello Robin;
Go ahead and enjoy posting about cessationism. There are Bible references that don’t compromise the forum rules in this topic.
It seems you already went forward with Major. Enjoy!
Love in Christ.
Bob
And what is it that YOU are wanting to say my dear brother?
There is nothing in the rules concerning any discussion that we can not have on this. I am well aware of what you posted as it is a well know fact. The Catholic religion accepts Continuationism mainly because they believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ and is an Apostle. As I stated......That is impossible according to the Bible, BUT it is their tradition.
I personally know many, many Catholic, Methodists, Presbyterian, Pentecostals and Baptists. The only ones I KNOW who accept "Continuation" is the Catholics because of what I stated and the Pentacostals due to the idea that they want to have the Sign Gifts.
Thanks for your responce.
Romans 11:29 has nothing to due with our discussion!
One of the very worst mistakes that can be done in Bible hermeneutics is to pick out a single Scripture and not use the CONTEXT that it demands.
In this case, the CONTEXT of Romans 11:29 is the salvation of Israel. There were patriarchs of Israel: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God gave to these three men great and unconditional promises that He would bless them and make of them a mighty nation. Since these promises were given by God, they carried the weight of certainty. The promises were God's gifts. God called the patriarchs to follow Him and He made an everlasting covenant with them that included their descendants.
Paul writes that these gifts and calling are irrevocable that were made to Abraham, Isac and Jacob. Though God later made conditional covenants to bless Israel if they would keep the law, His promises to the patriarchs were mostly one-sided promises based only on His own goodness. Those promises will not be revoked no matter how deeply Israel sins in rejecting faith in Christ as the Messiah. He will always call Israel back into relationship with Himself, even bringing the people of the nation to faith in Christ in due time.
That is why Paul wrote............."For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
Now Hebrews 13:8-9 is an exciting Scripture and I am glade you used it. However, it does NOT mean what you are trying to make it mean. Jesus IS the same, but you and I are not.
This Scripture connects two ideas:
1. honoring living examples of faith and the
2. importance of consistent doctrine.
This leads to an important application: .........
the first step in recognizing false doctrine. Over time, self-labelled teachers have introduced "new" interpretations of the Bible, or of God, which overturn the basics of the faith itself. Sometimes, these relate to doctrinal issues. In other cases, they are claims about changing moral principles. By their very nature, all such claims are absolutely false. Jesus Christ does not change—and neither does His gospel. God does not change—and neither does His truth (Isaiah 40:28).
So then, HOW is Jesus the same??
1. He is the same in His CHARACTER.
2. He is the same in His PERSON.
3. He is the same in His ATTRIBUTES.
However.............HOW is He NOT THE SAME????
1. He is not the same in His PERFORMANCE.
2. He is not the same in His PLACE.
We must not take a Scripture which is focused on Jesus Christ Himself and apply it a teaching or thought that applies to us as an indivdual because we want to do something that is not specifically said that we can do in the Bible.
Thanks Bob. There has been several threads on just this topic in the past. I hope Robin will start one using only the Scriptures as the basis for application!
Those believing in sign miracles and modern apostles could easily silence opposition from cessationists by simply emptying the cancer wards and morgues, restoring them to health and life.
Amen!Those believing in sign miracles and modern apostles could easily silence opposition from cessationists by simply emptying the cancer wards and morgues, restoring them to health and life.
Or maybe turning an approaching hurricane back to open waters.
What! or What?
Want to be a little more specific?
No brother it does not!
It is 100 % Bible.
"Performance" .....
When He was here on the earth He was the suffering Messiah.
He taught people. the gospel.
He died on the cross and accomplished the redemption of humanity.
"Place"...........
2000 years ago he was incarnated in Bethlehem.
2000 years ago He walked the streets of Israel.
2000 years ago He did not come to Rome or Athens or a seat of power, but to a dirty little town in Israel.
TODAY He sits at the right hand of the Father and is the Great High Priest in heaven for all believers.
What part of all that makes Him a pawn??????
talk about a ship that has sailed off course .. the post has drifted in waters unknown..
You are making this personal! I am being Biblical!
YOU are wanting to be able to heal, have a word of wisdom and prophesy and do miracles just as was the Sign Gifts given to the ELEVEN in Mark 16. IF YOU choose to believe those things then Hallahuya! I am glad for you!
However the Scriptures are abundantly clear in Mark 16.........
"Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the worldand preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;but he who does not believe will be condemned."
John 17...........
" Just as you sent me into the world, I am sending them into the world… I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me. "
Now to those ELEVEN in Mark 16, Jesus gave some special Sigh Gifts to protect them in their mission.........Mark 16:17-18
"And these signs will follow those who believe (1) In My name they will cast out demons; they (1) will speak with new tongues; 18 they(1) will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
(1) In the Greek Grammar, the words, "those & They" are called ANTECEDENT's and their purpose is to identify who these are and they point back to verse #14 and the ELEVEN.
Now, When I am speaking of the biblical sign gifts, I am referring to miracles, speaking in different languages, visions, healing, raising the dead, and prophesying. There is no question among believers whether or not they existed, for the Bible plainly describes them.
The question is.......are they valid TODAY! You are of the position that they are! I am of the position that they are not. I say that from the LITERAL reading of the Word of God. "TO THE ELEVEN"!!!!
Now, if men had the sign gifts given to the ELEVEN then why are there children with cancer?
Why aren't all those who believe as you do not going from one hospital to another healing everyone in them????
IF YOU have the sign gifts, why do you not have a rattle snake sleeping in your bed with you???
IF YOU have the Sign gifts then when do you buy bottled water. Why not drink bleach or poison????
IF YOU have the sign gifts then why are there people still dieing from Covid 19 virus.
And NO......I am not being factious, or silly and I am not temping God and I am not being mean spirited. I am simply saying that what God gave the ELEVEN and you claim those same gifts, then you should not be on the internet talking but on the highway doing what you say you can do!
That is not the point. YOU asked how He was different.
First He is not in the same PLACE He was.
Second, He is Not doing what He was doing here on the earth = PERFORMANCE.
I agree that He is the same today as yesterday, but in reality He is not doing the same things and THAT was my point!
Sure. YOU are suggesting that a Scripture given to the ELEVEN disciples applies to you as well as to them. The Bible does not say that you and I have those Sign Gifts. What we want just does not enter the Biblical picture.
We must be carful not to pick a Scripture we like and make a doctrine out of it. CONTEXT must be applied as to WHO is in View and WHen and Where.
CONTEXT of all Scripture means 1 Corthinans 13:8-9 can not be ignored.........
" Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
May I say here at this point Robin, that you have made again the classic error of taking a Scripture out of CONTEXT as a way to support what you want to believe.
Romans 11:29 that you used has nothing to do with the "Sign Gifts" or the spiritual gifts that God gave men.
The CONTEXT of that specific Scriptures concerning the "Patriarchs" of the Jewish faith....Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The whole chapter of Romans 11 is concerning the state of Israel and its restoration!!!!
Through election—God's sovereign choosing beforehand—this is the purpose for which God has destined the nation of Israel.
The prior verse said that it is because of their forefathers. Those are the patriarchs of Israel: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
God gave to these three men great and unconditional promises that He would bless them and make of them a mighty nation.
Since these promises were given by God, they carried the weight of certainty. The promises were God's gifts to those men.
God called the patriarchs to follow Him and He made an everlasting covenant with them that included their descendants.
Paul writes that these gifts and calling are irrevocable. Though God later made conditional covenants to bless Israel if they would keep the law, His promises to the patriarchs were mostly one-sided promises based only on His own goodness. Those promises will not be revoked no matter how deeply Israel sins in rejecting faith in Christ as the Messiah. He will always call Israel back into relationship with Himself, even bringing the people of the nation to faith in Christ in due time.
This is the perfect example of how NOT understanding "Context" leads to false teaching and error.
I once regularly attended an Assembly of God church, and I noticed that they had a strong belief in the present ability to exercise the miraculous sign gifts. But, they never actually manifested them outside of speaking of them during church. I observed that the focus of their religious experience lay primarily in experiences, and I attribute this to their belief in an outward experiential manifestation of receiving the Holy Spirit into their lives. I saw many believers manifest different behaviors during services, but in their daily lives, they were no different from others around them. Because they chased experiences as validations of the truth of their religious experiences, there was a certain stunting of religious maturity in many of them. Mature Christians were not a common commodity there. If we base our faith on experiences rather than God's Word, we fall into the danger of stunting our growth in Christ. The issue of the present operation of miraculous gifts is not as important as the issue of whether each individual is following God's will according to the mandate found in Romans 12:1-2.
Hello BibleLover;
You articulated this so well. Romans 12:1-2 acknowledges God’s complete sovereignty. As He guides and blesses us then suddenly something unpleasant happens immediately. Do we blame God based on our experiences or do we trust Him giving our sacrifices?
Moses led God’s people out of the Egypt experience only to be confronted with the Red Sea.
.
lol i like the quote ill be your huckleberry. the gifts of the spirit are here. one can not deny that at all. are they used in the correct manner as should be? in some cases i think not. in some things i have seen it was a show of flesh,. Church denomination doctrine discussion has created more strife than anything.... i have yet to meet a person who was wrong. one group believes in signs and wonders. only thing i know is Jesus said there would be no sign given but that of Jonah. they missed it and so are many Christians. one group believes in tongues others dont. one group is osas one group is not. amazing how we can allow things to create division .
i also realize one will see this one will not due to ignore... maybe both sides could find a happy medium is it possible ? see the o.p might just fit this discussion Spot On
i also realize one will see this one will not due to ignore... maybe both sides could find a happy medium is it possible ? see the o.p might just fit this discussion Spot On
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