God is Love, Love keeps no records of wrongs, and the Judgment

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You know early this morning when I asked this question, GS ticked me off a little bit, she replied as if she knew everything..but since my new day started which was about an hour ago, heheheee, yeah I'm a late sleeper, so slap me will ya, it really doesn't matter to me where heaven will be..like MC and Miss Dusty said..where God is..heaven will be also.
 

Dusty

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You know early this morning when I asked this question, GS ticked me off a little bit, she replied as if she knew everything..but since my new day started which was about an hour ago, heheheee, yeah I'm a late sleeper, so slap me will ya, it really doesn't matter to me where heaven will be..like MC and Miss Dusty said..where God is..heaven will be also.
None of us here know everything Miss Puppy I sure don't .
. We are all learning and I think it is unfare to say that any one knows all .
 
Jan 22, 2007
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Sherman,
You really don't believe that those who are not saved will not go to hell? Or if they did you really don't believe they would be tormented in hell forever? That's Biblical and are basic Christian beliefs.
It is true that belief in Hell is a basic doctrine of most of Christendom, and it has been since the ascendance of the Latin RCC and it's foundational interpretation of scripture, St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate. I however, based on my understanding of scripture am convinced that Hell is not a scriptural concept and that God actually does save everyone. Why have I come to believe this? The two primary reasons are:

1) Though scripture speaks of punishment in the afterlife, not one word in the Hebrew or Greek text of scripture conveys the idea of endless torment - not Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, or Tartaroo. In fact, Jesus spoke of Gehenna, which to the 1st Century Jew most closely resembles the concept of Purgatory, not Hell.

2) Scripture also speaks of punishment in the afterlife as being Remedial in nature. Paul turned a brother over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit might be saved. Gehenna, speaks of Remedial punishment. Even Revelation's Lake of Fire and Brimstone metaphorically speaks of Remedial punishment. The lake of fire is said to be in the presence of the Lamb and the angels. And brimstone was burnt by Greeks and Romans as an incense for spiritual purification and physical healing.

I realize that faith in hell is a foundational element of traditional Christianity, but I don't belief such faith is warranted scripturally. Have you noticed that "Hell" is progressively disappearing from English translations?
The first Catholic English translation Douay Rheims (1610) had the word “Hell” in it 110 times. The 1611 King James Version only has it 54 times; NKJV (1982) – 32 times; CEV (1995) – 20 times; NLT & NCV – 17 times; NIV, ESV, Darby, & Catholic NJB – 14 times; NASB, AMP, ASV & TNIV – 13 times; HCSB – 12 times. And the Catholic NAB, Young’s Literal Translation, Rotherham’s translation, Fenton’s translation, and the WEB do not have the word “Hell” in them at all – 0 times!

You may have also noticed that though in years gone by “Hell” was a primary element of many sermons with some sermons being wholly devoted to its horrors; however, in contemporary churches “Hell” is rarely, if ever, mentioned, especially in mega-churches.

Some believe that contemporary churches have gone soft, preaching only to please people, afraid to preach the full counsel of God, afraid they’ll offend and loose their people. On the other hand, some believe that the message of Hell promotes little, if any, lasting positive change and thus elect to not teach from that perspective. Rather, they minister from a grace-based perspective, believing that it is the goodness of God that leads people to lasting positive change (repentance). And a few go so far as to believe and teach that Hell (i.e. conscious endless torment) is actually not a scriptural concept, but one that was translated into the English text.

Are older translations better than contemporary translations? Is there some type of conspiracy to remove Hell from Scripture? Are mega-churches only offering Christianity-lite? Is there another explanation for this trend? What is the truth; what does Scripture actually teach concerning Hell?

The word "Hell" is an English word derived from the Old English Norse word "Hel" which was a concept of Old English pagan mythology and connotes a place of "conscious endless torture" though the one they pictured was freezing. "Hell" is used to translate 4 words from the original Hebrew and Greek text of Scripture - Sheol, Hades, Tartaroo, and Gehenna. Let us review the actual meaning of the 4 words. As you know, "Hell" implies "Conscious Endless Torment", but:

Sheol- Hebrew, means the realm of the dead, often translated grave. It does Not imply "Torment".

Hades- Greek, means the realm of the dead, used to translate Sheol in the LXX. It too does Not imply "Torment". In Greek mythology, Hades had several sections – Elysium, Asphodel, and Tartarus. The Elysium fields were the final resting place of the souls of the heroic and the virtuous where they would enjoy immortal bliss. The Asphodel Meadows is where ordinary people went after death, a place of utter neutrality, a ghostly place where people are given over to an endless monotony. Tartarus is the torturous realm of Hades and is reserved for the especially wicked.

Tartaroo- Greek, the torturous realm of Hades, used only once in scripture in 2 Peter 2:4 to reference the place where sinning angels are held "until judgment". The Only scripture where Tartaroo is used does Not imply "Endless", nor are humans consigned there.

Gehenna– Greek, transliteration of the Hebrew "Ga Hinnom," literally means "Valley of Hinnom" – a valley just outside of Jerusalem that was used as a trash dump where there was a continuous (eternal) fire consuming the trash and never a shortage of maggots (worm dies not) consuming decaying flesh. "Gehenna" would best be translated as "the city (Jerusalem’s) trash dump".

Note that this metaphor does not specifically indicate that people will be tormented forever; if anything, without other information, it would indicate annihilation. Though the fire is continuous, the trash cast into the flames burns up. It is very significant to note that Gehenna was used as a metaphor by 1st century Rabbis to speak of punishment and purification in the afterlife.

Most 1st century Jews believed that when people died (except for the especially wicked) they went through a season of purification where they encountered the Truth about themselves and it, well, burnt the evil from them. Some of the Rabbis spoke of people being tormented by the demons of their own creation until they fully understood just how evil their attitudes and lifestyles were. They believed that this season of purification was remedial and terrible, but not endless for most people. For most people, especially loved ones, Gehenna was a season of purification less than 12 months. In fact, to mourn the passing of a loved one more than 11 months was to imply that the person was especially wicked.

The Jews believed that Gehenna was for both Jews and Gentiles and that people were judged according to the revelation and covenant they received - the Old Covenant (Testament) being strictly for the Jew. During the 11 months of mourning, Jews would offer prayers, sacrificial gifts, and even be baptized for the dead (which Paul spoke of affirmatively in 1 Corinthians 15). Some believed that even the most wicked persons would be purified and go on to the Garden of Eden (Paradise). Others believed that those who were especially wicked, wholly given over to evil, would be either consumed (annihilated) or stuck indefinitely in Gehenna.

If one was going to translate Gehenna using a Theological term (instead of metaphorical), the predominant meaning of Gehenna as understood by the 1st Century Jew would be "Purgatory", not "Hell". Jesus actually indicates that purification was the purpose of Gehenna’s fire in Mark 9.

Warning of the terribleness of Gehenna, Jesus say that “if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (Gehenna), where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched’” (9:47-48). And Jesus goes on to say that “ Everyone will be salted with fire” (9:49). Jesus warns of the terribleness of Gehenna, but indicates that such is apparently for the purification of the soul, not the destruction of the soul, for everyone shall undergo such purification, salted, seasoned by fire.

It reminds me of what Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 3:13 “Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.” What is burnt up is that which is worthless. Gehenna would be best theologically interpreted as “Purgatory,” and certainly should not be interpreted as “Hell.”

None of the four words commonly translated "Hell" in English translations should be translated as such. The mistranslation of these four words actually began with St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate. St. Jerome was an advocate for the doctrine of conscious endless torment of all who are not part of the Church, which stood in opposition to others in the early church that believed in Universal Salvation like Origen, and Gregory of Nyssa, and others that believed in annihilation. He, St. Jerome, translated his beliefs “INTO” scripture, mistranslating Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartaroo as Infernum 110 times in his Latin Vulgate. The 1610 Catholic Douay Rheims translation is based solely upon the Latin Vulgate and thus uses the word “Hell” 110 times. And the Roman Catholic Church was strongly influenced, one could say even built upon, the Latin Vulgate.

Why is the word “Hell” disappearing from English translations? Because English translations are getting better and more accurately convey what the original text says. Hell, conscious unending torment, is not a scriptural concept.
 
Jan 22, 2007
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Godspeaks, i think Sherman is saying that the concept of Hell was a fictitious doctrine based on a number of Pagan myths made up by Dante and pasted onto the KJV version of the scriptures but is not representative of any of the three words used for Hell . so i think it's just a matter of lense .
Actually, St. Jerome mistranslated "Infernum" into his Latin Vulgate. In the early church, many believers believed in the all-sufficiency of Christ, that Jesus really does conguer all and saves all. Some though, especially the Latin branch of the church, believed that Jesus fails in saving most of humanity and instead condemns them to suffer endlessly in the Inferno. Thus when He translated scripture from Greek and Hebrew into Latin, he translated, acutally Mistranslated, Infernum INTO scripture. The concept of endless torment (Hell) is not scriptural, but is a vital part of pagan doctrines around the world.
 

Michael Collum

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Ah yes Christos Victor . :)

interesting about St Jerome and the infernum ..

i heard there was a massive shift in theology after a thousand years of Christianity .. what's that about anyway?

always willing to learn more .

love bless .
 
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It is true that belief in Hell is a basic doctrine of most of Christendom, and it has been since the ascendance of the Latin RCC and it's foundational interpretation of scripture, St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate. I however, based on my understanding of scripture am convinced that Hell is not a scriptural concept and that God actually does save everyone. Why have I come to believe this? The two primary reasons are:

1) Though scripture speaks of punishment in the afterlife, not one word in the Hebrew or Greek text of scripture conveys the idea of endless torment - not Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, or Tartaroo. In fact, Jesus spoke of Gehenna, which to the 1st Century Jew most closely resembles the concept of Purgatory, not Hell.

2) Scripture also speaks of punishment in the afterlife as being Remedial in nature. Paul turned a brother over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit might be saved. Gehenna, speaks of Remedial punishment. Even Revelation's Lake of Fire and Brimstone metaphorically speaks of Remedial punishment. The lake of fire is said to be in the presence of the Lamb and the angels. And brimstone was burnt by Greeks and Romans as an incense for spiritual purification and physical healing.

I realize that faith in hell is a foundational element of traditional Christianity, but I don't belief such faith is warranted scripturally. Have you noticed that "Hell" is progressively disappearing from English translations?
The first Catholic English translation Douay Rheims (1610) had the word “Hell” in it 110 times. The 1611 King James Version only has it 54 times; NKJV (1982) – 32 times; CEV (1995) – 20 times; NLT & NCV – 17 times; NIV, ESV, Darby, & Catholic NJB – 14 times; NASB, AMP, ASV & TNIV – 13 times; HCSB – 12 times. And the Catholic NAB, Young’s Literal Translation, Rotherham’s translation, Fenton’s translation, and the WEB do not have the word “Hell” in them at all – 0 times!

You may have also noticed that though in years gone by “Hell” was a primary element of many sermons with some sermons being wholly devoted to its horrors; however, in contemporary churches “Hell” is rarely, if ever, mentioned, especially in mega-churches.

Some believe that contemporary churches have gone soft, preaching only to please people, afraid to preach the full counsel of God, afraid they’ll offend and loose their people. On the other hand, some believe that the message of Hell promotes little, if any, lasting positive change and thus elect to not teach from that perspective. Rather, they minister from a grace-based perspective, believing that it is the goodness of God that leads people to lasting positive change (repentance). And a few go so far as to believe and teach that Hell (i.e. conscious endless torment) is actually not a scriptural concept, but one that was translated into the English text.

Are older translations better than contemporary translations? Is there some type of conspiracy to remove Hell from Scripture? Are mega-churches only offering Christianity-lite? Is there another explanation for this trend? What is the truth; what does Scripture actually teach concerning Hell?

The word "Hell" is an English word derived from the Old English Norse word "Hel" which was a concept of Old English pagan mythology and connotes a place of "conscious endless torture" though the one they pictured was freezing. "Hell" is used to translate 4 words from the original Hebrew and Greek text of Scripture - Sheol, Hades, Tartaroo, and Gehenna. Let us review the actual meaning of the 4 words. As you know, "Hell" implies "Conscious Endless Torment", but:

Sheol- Hebrew, means the realm of the dead, often translated grave. It does Not imply "Torment".

Hades- Greek, means the realm of the dead, used to translate Sheol in the LXX. It too does Not imply "Torment". In Greek mythology, Hades had several sections – Elysium, Asphodel, and Tartarus. The Elysium fields were the final resting place of the souls of the heroic and the virtuous where they would enjoy immortal bliss. The Asphodel Meadows is where ordinary people went after death, a place of utter neutrality, a ghostly place where people are given over to an endless monotony. Tartarus is the torturous realm of Hades and is reserved for the especially wicked.

Tartaroo- Greek, the torturous realm of Hades, used only once in scripture in 2 Peter 2:4 to reference the place where sinning angels are held "until judgment". The Only scripture where Tartaroo is used does Not imply "Endless", nor are humans consigned there.

Gehenna– Greek, transliteration of the Hebrew "Ga Hinnom," literally means "Valley of Hinnom" – a valley just outside of Jerusalem that was used as a trash dump where there was a continuous (eternal) fire consuming the trash and never a shortage of maggots (worm dies not) consuming decaying flesh. "Gehenna" would best be translated as "the city (Jerusalem’s) trash dump".

Note that this metaphor does not specifically indicate that people will be tormented forever; if anything, without other information, it would indicate annihilation. Though the fire is continuous, the trash cast into the flames burns up. It is very significant to note that Gehenna was used as a metaphor by 1st century Rabbis to speak of punishment and purification in the afterlife.

Most 1st century Jews believed that when people died (except for the especially wicked) they went through a season of purification where they encountered the Truth about themselves and it, well, burnt the evil from them. Some of the Rabbis spoke of people being tormented by the demons of their own creation until they fully understood just how evil their attitudes and lifestyles were. They believed that this season of purification was remedial and terrible, but not endless for most people. For most people, especially loved ones, Gehenna was a season of purification less than 12 months. In fact, to mourn the passing of a loved one more than 11 months was to imply that the person was especially wicked.

The Jews believed that Gehenna was for both Jews and Gentiles and that people were judged according to the revelation and covenant they received - the Old Covenant (Testament) being strictly for the Jew. During the 11 months of mourning, Jews would offer prayers, sacrificial gifts, and even be baptized for the dead (which Paul spoke of affirmatively in 1 Corinthians 15). Some believed that even the most wicked persons would be purified and go on to the Garden of Eden (Paradise). Others believed that those who were especially wicked, wholly given over to evil, would be either consumed (annihilated) or stuck indefinitely in Gehenna.

If one was going to translate Gehenna using a Theological term (instead of metaphorical), the predominant meaning of Gehenna as understood by the 1st Century Jew would be "Purgatory", not "Hell". Jesus actually indicates that purification was the purpose of Gehenna’s fire in Mark 9.

Warning of the terribleness of Gehenna, Jesus say that “if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (Gehenna), where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched’” (9:47-48). And Jesus goes on to say that “ Everyone will be salted with fire” (9:49). Jesus warns of the terribleness of Gehenna, but indicates that such is apparently for the purification of the soul, not the destruction of the soul, for everyone shall undergo such purification, salted, seasoned by fire.

It reminds me of what Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 3:13 “Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.” What is burnt up is that which is worthless. Gehenna would be best theologically interpreted as “Purgatory,” and certainly should not be interpreted as “Hell.”

None of the four words commonly translated "Hell" in English translations should be translated as such. The mistranslation of these four words actually began with St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate. St. Jerome was an advocate for the doctrine of conscious endless torment of all who are not part of the Church, which stood in opposition to others in the early church that believed in Universal Salvation like Origen, and Gregory of Nyssa, and others that believed in annihilation. He, St. Jerome, translated his beliefs “INTO” scripture, mistranslating Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartaroo as Infernum 110 times in his Latin Vulgate. The 1610 Catholic Douay Rheims translation is based solely upon the Latin Vulgate and thus uses the word “Hell” 110 times. And the Roman Catholic Church was strongly influenced, one could say even built upon, the Latin Vulgate.

Why is the word “Hell” disappearing from English translations? Because English translations are getting better and more accurately convey what the original text says. Hell, conscious unending torment, is not a scriptural concept.
Interesting. Very similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses' belief.
 
Jul 26, 2007
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The concept of endless torment (Hell) is not scriptural,
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries
Heb 10:26-27

I'm sorry Sherman. I think these verses alone proves the existence of it. Some people might have problems w/ the term, but the concept is mentioned in more than 10 verses in the bible.
 

Michael Collum

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For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries
Heb 10:26-27

I'm sorry Sherman. I think these verses alone proves the existence of it. Some people might have problems w/ the term, but the concept is mentioned in more than 10 verses in the bible.
Hmm i don't think that has to do with the lake of fire . "fiery indignation" seems to imply a facial expression and may relate back to one of the Gospel parables where the king says "and as for those who did not want me as king kill them in my sight ." and also may relate to God calling fire to destroy the gog magog armies just prior to the judgment . since fiery indignation and judgment are separated by an "and" it may very well be the "fiery indignation" in the Hebrews verse speaks of God's fiery indignation at that moment post millenial .
 
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Hmm i don't think that has to do with the lake of fire . "fiery indignation" seems to imply a facial expression and may relate back to one of the Gospel parables where the king says "and as for those who did not want me as king kill them in my sight ." and also may relate to God calling fire to destroy the gog magog armies just prior to the judgment . since fiery indignation and judgment are separated by an "and" it may very well be the "fiery indignation" in the Hebrews verse speaks of God's fiery indignation at that moment post millenial .
But it talks about sinning wilfully. And sinning wilfully has this punishment. And this is the concept of the punishment:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell
 

Michael Collum

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Yeah it's saying if it is your eye causing you to lust after a woman rip it out and if your hand is causing you to sin in this regard ;) then cut that off too . but i thought about this .. it isn't my body parts that cause me to sin it's the sinful infection in my brain so i should just cut my head off? or rip my heart out?

so it appears hyperbole is being used in this passage . because James expounds that it is our own desires that make us sin . so .. eh .. whatever it all means is found in the balancing of similarly themed passages ..

Hey Sherman .. what word was used for hell in the greek for that passage btw?
 

Michael Collum

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Oh yeah here it is from the Strongs and Online bible dictionary which can be found inside the electronic bible downloadable and buyable from www.onlinebible.net .

1067 geenna geenna gheh’-en-nah

of Hebrew origin Mnh-ayq, 01516 and 02011; TDNT-1:657,113; n f

AV-hell 9, hell fire + 3588 + 4442 3; 12

1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

So .. i guess i could come to one of two conclusions .. the spiritual garbage is all burned away .. and then .. something else happens .. or complete annihilation .. but the latter view doesn't resonate except as "empty" .

infinitely interesting .
 
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Oh yeah here it is from the Strongs and Online bible dictionary which can be found inside the electronic bible downloadable and buyable from www.onlinebible.net .

1067 geenna geenna gheh’-en-nah

of Hebrew origin Mnh-ayq, 01516 and 02011; TDNT-1:657,113; n f

AV-hell 9, hell fire + 3588 + 4442 3; 12

1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
A fellow forumer before recommended the Amplified bible. It clearly points out if Gehenna was used.
 

Michael Collum

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Please bear in mind John that the King James version of the bible and the Amplified Version use a different manuscript set .

i clicked on the number beside hell in that verse and gehenna appeared .

Mt 5:29 And <1161> if <1487> thy <4675> right <1188> eye <3788> offend <4624> (5719) thee <4571>, pluck <1807> <0> it <846> out <1807> (5628), and <2532> cast <906> (5628) it from <575> thee <4675>: for <1063> it is profitable <4851> (5719) for thee <4671> that <2443> one <1520> of thy <4675> members <3196> should perish <622> (5643), and <2532> not <3361> that thy <4675> whole <3650> body <4983> should be cast <906> (5686) into <1519> hell <1067>.

1067 geenna geenna gheh’-en-nah
 

Michael Collum

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Yes, but chances are, it would be the same word used.
Yes . i would agree .

Matthew 5:29 (Amplified Bible)

29If your right eye serves as a trap to ensnare you or is an occasion for you to stumble and sin, pluck it out and throw it away. It is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be cast into hell (Gehenna).
 
Nov 19, 2009
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GodSpeaks said:
Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
PreciousPuppy said:
If heaven is gonna be on earth one day..why are you saying that there will be a heaven and earth?? this don't make any sense.
You know early this morning when I asked this question, GS ticked me off a little bit, she replied as if she knew everything..but since my new day started which was about an hour ago, heheheee, yeah I'm a late sleeper, so slap me will ya, it really doesn't matter to me where heaven will be..like MC and Miss Dusty said..where God is..heaven will be also.

Puppy,
I apologize for upsetting you. All I did was give my opinion based on the verse I posted.
By the time I got on here to answer your other post is not on here now asking why would there be both. I don't know why. I just believe what God says and don't question Him about things. When we get to heaven we will know alot of answer to questions we don't know down here.
 
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Sherman

Hell and the lake of fire is a place Jesus did speak of many times. It’s very clear if we don’t try to explain it away. And some would like to because they cannot deal with it but would have to make a decision for God, which they don’t want to do.

Here Jesus was not speaking in parables but mentioned a real person by name and what really happened in a real literal place.

Luke 16:22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

The rich man was conscious and felt the torment.


The doctrine on inclusion is not scriptural. If every one will be saved Jesus would not have commissioned us to go and preach the gospel. There would be no need to.

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


We will not all be saved, we are all lost unless we receive Jesus.
Many verses have already been quoted showing hell is real and scriptural. I’ve read your posts so there was no need to repeat all that again. It doesn’t matter how we come to some conclusion based on listening to what someone else has explained in their studies and books. The Bible is our authority and thats what we base our beliefs on. We are to believe God and take Him at His word.


Just because some people do not believe in hell does not change the fact it does exist and does not make it go away. Those who have not repented and received Jesus as their Lord will believe in hell when they get there and spend eternity there . But it will be too late then.
 
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