Hebrew 6:1-11

I could easily deviate here from the initial intent of my postings toward an emphasis on evangelism. Another of the blantant flaws I have witnessed in the churches where I was once a part was an almost complete lack of preparation for well established, premeditated evangelism. Some of my thoughts on that, I submitted to the Evangelism section of CFS.

As we seem to all agree, one can desire to be a messenger, while not realizing he does not really have a message. The preparation needed for evangelists when compared to basic foundational teachings is stark. Other, more secular tools are necessary, including a foundation in the details of cults, as well as an active association with, meditation on, and use of apologetics, a field of study which hasn't quite been absorbed into the fold by most churches. It's a distinctly separate discipline that takes in academic subjects like philosophy and history, not merely the Bible.
 
Me thinks you have given this much thought and meditation sir.

It is very difficult for a pastor to equip his fold though. I recall the local Church trying to introduce "Two Ways to Live" as a means of equipping people. Personally I thought it was not a very good tool, but that's me. (so easy to be negative) I was a good boy and undertook the program, but around 80% found that "They'd left the Iron on" or 'they forgot to turn the stove off' or something. They refused to participate. I got the feeling that it had nothing to do with the quality of the program but a lot to do with that 'E' word, and a lack of desire for personal involvement to see the gospel proclaimed. 'Christianity Explained' is a good tool, but it requires a good knowledge of scripture because of the almost infinite range of questions that people are apt to ask.
 
Good points, Calvin. The desire to equip oneself for evangelism is less of a goal among believers as some of us would like. In my case, I prepared while I went out, reading books like Walter Martin's Kingsom of the Cults and taking a few outlines from Billy Graham's messages. Today, there are many more aids.

Maybe the lack of interest is the result of the abundance of avenues for entertainment. Folks would rather watch a movie, text, play digital games, and socialize on Facebook than reach out. Ravi Zacharias calls it "the problem with pleasure."
 
hopeinGod said:
Good points, Calvin. The desire to equip oneself for evangelism is less of a goal among believers as some of us would like. In my case, I prepared while I went out, reading books like Walter Martin's Kingsom of the Cults and taking a few outlines from Billy Graham's messages. Today, there are many more aids.

Maybe the lack of interest is the result of the abundance of avenues for entertainment. Folks would rather watch a movie, text, play digital games, and socialize on Facebook than reach out. Ravi Zacharias calls it "the problem with pleasure."
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My friend..........My experience is that people who do not want to go out to share the gospel are afraid that someone will ask them a question about the Bible and they can not answer it.

Some how they have come to the thought that they must be a Bible answer man when all they have to do is talk about Jesus and how He changed their life.

Almost always, a skeptic will try and trap a believer with stupid questions to make then look superior to the believer.

Example:
"Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons"

"When Cain went into the land of Nod anf there he knew his wife, where did his wife come from".
 
"When Cain went into the land of Nod anf there he knew his wife, where did his wife come from".
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:mad: Trapped!

I think Cain lived long and his wife was likely a distant cousin, as all our wives are :) ?
 
I would suggest, Evangelism is a gift few receive and trying to guilt the whole congregation into doing it, when it's against their grain and gifts is just arrogance. THE CHURCH as a body is to evangelize. That may mean you sit home and make phone calls for supplies for a missions trip to Mumbai or the Amazon or something.

The idea of "evangelizing" most people have is based around the phrases, Hear the word, and declare him with your lips. It makes people targets, not believers. If you want to be a witness, BE WITNESSED. Stop the mouthing part, and live the doing part.

Period.

That's what the Way was known for, their acts, not their preaching.
Conservatives, as a rule don't like to get THAT conservative. They only want to go back 200 years in the faith, not to the roots.



calvin said:
Me thinks you have given this much thought and meditation sir.

It is very difficult for a pastor to equip his fold though. I recall the local Church trying to introduce "Two Ways to Live" as a means of equipping people. Personally I thought it was not a very good tool, but that's me. (so easy to be negative) I was a good boy and undertook the program, but around 80% found that "They'd left the Iron on" or 'they forgot to turn the stove off' or something. They refused to participate. I got the feeling that it had nothing to do with the quality of the program but a lot to do with that 'E' word, and a lack of desire for personal involvement to see the gospel proclaimed. 'Christianity Explained' is a good tool, but it requires a good knowledge of scripture because of the almost infinite range of questions that people are apt to ask.
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Arrogance??? No, I don't think that is really fair.
The military teach the cooks how to fire a weapon, but they don't send them out on a combat mission. Teaching or equipping your Christian 'kitchen staff' how to defend their faith, or how to wield the sword of the Spirit is not a bad thing surely?
I'd say there is a danger in trying to fit today's society into a social mold that is 2K years old. Sure a Christian of those days stood out like a 'sore thumb' amidst a pagan society. Nowadays though none of us live in a Christian society, we do (most of us at least) live in what can be described as a Christianized society. Even atheists are Christianized compared to their paganized ancestry.
Perhaps that is where there is a 'hidden danger'; when it comes to the crunch, a Christianized soul without Jesus will still stand out like 'sore thumb', by comparison to those with Jesus.
Complacency then can be identified as a powerful weapon of the enemy.
 
2K years ago, the Church Model was one that helped those in or not in the Church. They were noted as such even by those who persecuted them. (Pliny the Younger).

Saying asking the Church today to not aspire to that model, would literally be asking them to not love their neighbor.

I know it was a phrase you used only, but the phrase, "wield the sword of the Spirit" bugs me. It's the Spirit of GOD, not a hammer you pick up and use at will. IT uses us, not US using Him.

And I'm pretty sure that wasn't what you were saying, but the verbiage just..... *tweaks* me.
 
Xian Pugilist said:
2K years ago, the Church Model was one that helped those in or not in the Church. They were noted as such even by those who persecuted them. (Pliny the Younger).

Saying asking the Church today to not aspire to that model, would literally be asking them to not love their neighbor.

I know it was a phrase you used only, but the phrase, "wield the sword of the Spirit" bugs me. It's the Spirit of GOD, not a hammer you pick up and use at will. IT uses us, not US using Him.

And I'm pretty sure that wasn't what you were saying, but the verbiage just..... *tweaks* me.
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Colour highlight added.

That, and similar is what I had in mind. These days there are a lot of secular organizations that are doing the works that Christians did then. That is why I use the term 'Christianized'
Eph 6:17. "and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,".
So no, the 'sword of the Spirit' is not the Spirit Himself, it is the 'word of God' If that 'tweeks' you, you have an issue with the author not me.:)
 
calvin said:
Colour highlight added.

That, and similar is what I had in mind. These days there are a lot of secular organizations that are doing the works that Christians did then. That is why I use the term 'Christianized'
Eph 6:17. "and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,".
So no, the 'sword of the Spirit' is not the Spirit Himself, it is the 'word of God' If that 'tweeks' you, you have an issue with the author not me.:)
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Ok, I understand the first part's mindset better, ty. And I think we sit close together there, however, that secular groups do a lot only proves that even atheists WANT TO DO GOOD, contrary to this claim some make, 'NOW I WANT TO DO GOOD, SO I KNOW I AM SAVED' and several variants.

Its no excuse for the cheap grace (bonhoeffer) that you find so much today. I have been in churcheS where they actually if you do works you will go to hell, or if you seek works,,, blah blah.

The sword of the spirit, I really anticipated the more common use, and wasn't expecting it used correctly.

I have no beev with the word, but a lot with how that verse is used to wield GOD IS LOVE, I.E. the gospel, and turn God into a fascist dictator with it. Aren't you glad I hold back some?

Calvin, there is little I balk at with you, and mostly when I do it hasn't been by as much a spread as I thought..... part of that is the way others before you have thrown the same phrases at me, etc. So I'm guilty of not waiting to verify your thoughts before I go full bore. Sorry,

But we still have big differences, perhaps if u are ever in Dallas, I can buy you lunch.
 
KingJ said:
:mad: Trapped!

I think Cain lived long and his wife was likely a distant cousin, as all our wives are :) ?
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As do I. IMO Adam and Eve did what God told them to do (Finally) and they had children. Eve I am sure even had twins. Point being that there would have been a lot of women available. :eek:
 
Major said:
My friend..........My experience is that people who do not want to go out to share the gospel are afraid that someone will ask them a question about the Bible and they can not answer it.

Some how they have come to the thought that they must be a Bible answer man when all they have to do is talk about Jesus and how He changed their life.

Almost always, a skeptic will try and trap a believer with stupid questions to make then look superior to the believer.

Example:
"Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons"

"When Cain went into the land of Nod anf there he knew his wife, where did his wife come from".
Click to expand...

Knowing with whom we ought to maintain a conversation regarding the things of God can be challenging. My way is normally to see if the person has a friendly attitude. It's fairly easy to do, say, in a grocery store, to state something brief that references the Lord.

For instance, while standing near the chocolate section, one could say to a shopper standing nearby, "Chocolate, how can anyone live without it? If the devil had tempted Jesus with chocolate, He, no doubt, would have caved in."

If a conversation arises, it's always a good practice to remember a name. Making a point about their name -- "Oh, Mary, that's so biblical." -- usually helps me to recall it when I see that person again, especially if the person is an employee.

Efforts to introduce people to the Lord may not directly lead to anyone's immediate salvation; nevertheless, you planted a seed, and as time goes on, you may get a chance to water it.
 
Is it important to ANY of the message of the Bible to know HOW God did it? There are so many variables that are possible within scripture, that IT CAN ONLY CAUSE DIVISION, when one side insists they are more right than the other.

It's the equivalent to arguing who came from the most royal/holy lineage amongst the Pharisees.
 
calvin said:
Arrogance??? No, I don't think that is really fair.
The military teach the cooks how to fire a weapon, but they don't send them out on a combat mission. Teaching or equipping your Christian 'kitchen staff' how to defend their faith, or how to wield the sword of the Spirit is not a bad thing surely?
I'd say there is a danger in trying to fit today's society into a social mold that is 2K years old. Sure a Christian of those days stood out like a 'sore thumb' amidst a pagan society. Nowadays though none of us live in a Christian society, we do (most of us at least) live in what can be described as a Christianized society. Even atheists are Christianized compared to their paganized ancestry.
Perhaps that is where there is a 'hidden danger'; when it comes to the crunch, a Christianized soul without Jesus will still stand out like 'sore thumb', by comparison to those with Jesus.
Complacency then can be identified as a powerful weapon of the enemy.
Click to expand...

It has been my experience that a lot of people believe that being a church member makes them a Christian when in fact all it does is give them a vote at the business meetings.
 
Major said:
It has been my experience that a lot of people believe that being a church member makes them a Christian when in fact all it does is give them a vote at the business meetings.
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Unfortunately that is all too true too often.
 
In most Churches, the only "born again" believers, are those that agree with the person doing the math. So in some Churches and conversations therein, only ONE person is born again.

The concept of born again, that is used to day in these conversations didn't even exist until the 1800s. It's really sorta pointless to make such a bold claim as I AM BORN AGAIN, when you don't know if you are or not. I don't care how much you believe you are, you DO NOT KNOW, that is GOD's province.

So why do we waste time on that, when there are mouths to be fed, children to be loved, and etc....
 
calvin said:
Some years back I was the Hon? treasurer for our Church. As such, I looked after the purse (not like Mr Iscariot:rolleyes:)
The minister was often approached by people looking for a hand out to buy food(sadly sometimes cigarettes or grog).
I printed out food vouchers with various amounts on them. We had an agreement with the local supermarket and they would honour the vouchers and just send me a monthly account. The danger was and always will be, that if someone asks for $20 and you give them $40, next time they will ask for $60. Those people in need never were interested in any of the outreach programs run by the Church....I think for some, they preferred to remain anonymous.
It is a sad mixture, pride and poverty.
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It is a tough job for sure. I have seen the very same thing. To some, the church is an "enabler" of their problem.

The more it helps, the more it has to help. It has almost become a welfare participant.

About 10 years ago, our church spent $500.00 to mail our questionairs to the surrounding neighborhood. We asked all kinds of questions about what they thought of the church. You would not believe the answers we received............

Pay my power bill every month.
Pay my water bill for me.
Take me to the airport.
Offer a free day care for children.
Pay for my medicines.

It always bothers me when a person comes to ask for money and you notice that they have a pack of cigs in their pocket, a cell phone in their hand and a six pack in the car.
 
"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
NASB
"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
NASB
"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.NASB

Hard to balance.
 
I know a lot of people refuse to give money to the homeless because "they will just go buy more alcohol." However, we are not responsible for people abusing our charity. Abuse of charity is not a disqualification of charity itself. We can't allow people to harden our hearts to a "need." I am convinced God made me a magnet for these people, because people walk up to me all the time, in need of something. It is my job from then on to give charity (1 Cor 13) to express my love for the Lord (Mat 25:40). I do however think we should call these people out on certain addictions if we observe them and help them get away from that.

Also, charity isn't just for the person in need, either. One time a homeless guy was waiting outside a place called "Pita Pit," asking for money for food. So I took him inside and bought him whatever he wanted. The cashier and the other employee working there were so perplexed by my buying him a meal. They both knew he was waiting outside their business all day, and I suppose they thought nobody was going to do anything. After I bought him a meal, one of the employees gave me about ten "buy one get one free" coupons and said "That was really nice of you to do." Charity impacts everyone who observes it.
 
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